Poll

What Size Would you like us to produce?

1.000" Bore Dia.  Tube weight  3X24 approx. 42 Lbs.  Bullet  7 oz. (stl.)
1.067" Bore Dia.    Wt. same as above; this is 1/6 scale 6.4" Bore Dia.
1.167" Bore Dia.    Wt. same as above; this is 1/6 scale 7.0" Bore Dia.
1.333" Bore Dia.    Wt. approx 60 Lbs; This is 1/6 scale 8.0" Bore Dia.
1.750" Bore Dia.    Wt. 136 Lbs. for 24" L  Bullet Wt. 2.4
Other Size?   None over 1.75" this year.

Author Topic: Rifled Cannon Liners (Sleeves) in 1.000" Bore size Coming Soon...........  (Read 38729 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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 GOW wrote:  “So for $80 I had it stress relieved at a Denver area heat treat shop.  M&T may have even used them before..??  My biggest problem was getting it from northern Wyoming to there and back.”

     A Denver area heat treat shop??  A single one?  We must have 20 or 25 of those in Denver.  Which one?  You Wyoming cowboys must think Denver is still a one horse town.  I bet you think we still have to scrape the cow dung and mud off our boots before we go into a saloon.  Naw!  We just go right in!  As a matter of fact, this hasn’t been a Cow Town for ...............well.......more than a few years now.  We still have trolleys downtown, but we have bunches of them newfangled auto-mo-biles too! 

     And don’t you forget, we have Buffalo Bill Cody buried under about 20 tons of concrete up there on Lookout Mountain, so it’s goin to be mighty tough gettin him back!  ;) ;)

Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline KABAR2

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   We still have trolleys downtown, but we have bunches of them newfangled auto-mo-biles too! 

 !  ;) ;)

Tracy
Yes and I think there is still a law on the books in your neck of the woods that says it is illegal to shoot Jackrabbits from the Trolley........ some things never change......  ::)
 
 
 
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline PaulB

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Thanks George, interesting stuff. I'm fairly certain the carbon content of the Bofors barrel is much higher than 1018 and preheating would be necessary. I need to do a little research and see if there' s much benefit preheating mild steel. I like your method, that's easily done.
Paul

Offline seacoastartillery

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     I indicated that we would not be commenting on the welding discussion and we didn't.  If you are an expert, then you know what to do, if you are not, consult or hire one.  Attaching trunnions should be done correctly as their strength is critical to the safe function of the cannon.  Enough said, and now we will introduce an old question and hopefully will get some good answers from the membership.
 
                              WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTING FACTOR WHICH CAUSED THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL
                                                                         SEACOAST TUBE TO BE ACCURATE?
 
 
      We will lay out all the pertinent facts via photo captions and then wait for you to analyze them and come up with reasons.
 
 Tracy and Mike
 
 P.S.   We have our suspicions, but we Do Not have an absolute answer to this question.
 
 
 Yes, it's an old photo, but we are starting at the end of the story to finally, we hope, get back to the reasons for this result which was 5 shots at 100 yards in a 3.25" group.  We consistently do better than this now, but in 2004, this result was startling to us and inspired us to press on.
 
 
 
 
 This is the tube that shot that target. 18" long, 1.000" to 1.0002" breech to muzzle I.D., 2.500" O.D., Made of D.O.M. mechanical tubing, straight to .005" in the 18" length, 1026 steel with a 1018 steel breech plug installed and Rifled with 4 grooves, .187" wide, .018" deep and 4 lands, .5984" wide with right hand, straight  twist, one turn in 36".
 
 
 
 
 One thing that we Did Not have when we rifled the first successful tube is this Groove Position Indexer with it's precisely made ring attached to the still cylindrical trunnion with it's 60 deg, c'sinks and sturdy steel post with a spring loaded 60 deg. tipped, positioning  plunger.  Believe it or not, we eyeballed the position of each groove on the bore's surface pretty close to 90 degrees.  Because of this, each groove had to be cut to full depth, .018", before rotating the tube to cut the next groove, so they may not all have been the same depth as they are now.
 
 
 
 
 The first successful rifling head with the old "tail dragger" hook cutter which pivoted near the rear.  This type didn't work at all with 4140 or 4150 steel, but cut the low carbon 1026 just fine.  Hook angle was nearly 5 deg.  No front clamp is evident at this early stage and the tube was securely clamped at the rear V-block only.
 
 
 
 
 Seen here are the nice little curls of steel that the hook removed on each pass.  The first three of the experimental tubes had been ruined by faulty cutting, mostly chatter and skip cuts, probably due to an incorrect rake angle on the hook of 1 deg, 2 deg., 3 deg. and finally success with 5 deg. rake.
 
 
   
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline burnsb

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 This is the tube that shot that target. 18" long, 1.000" to 1.0002" breech to muzzle I.D.,  ...
 
   

Just curious, I'm assuming you finished the id past the initial DOM id.  Did you bore, hone, or ream it?

Offline gunsonwheels

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M&T
 
Metal Treating and Research on 69th...  reasonable and did a three hour soak at 1200F.
 
Yeh I Googled to find them and picked them so my transportation could find them somewhat easily from the freeway.  You do have a bunch down there.  Nothing in Northern Wyoming and even Billings, MT doesn't have anything... another cow country town..??
 
I suspect some of your jabbing comes from my suggesting Corus/Encore over in SLC for 1018 :) ...I guess I started it by implying you couldn't find a source or three in Denver.   Next to my scriptures are the other two most sacred books of a fabricator retiring to the wilds of Wyoming... McMaster Carr and WW Grainger... the "less than 24 hour service" of McMaster Carr has saved me a time-critical project many times (FedEx was here just yesterday).
 
Quote
WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTING FACTOR WHICH CAUSED THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL SEACOAST TUBE TO BE ACCURATE?

All I know is there are "a ton" of little things that go into accurately shooting a piece.  When I first started shooting rifled ordnance, I was all over the place and it had very little to do with the gun/tube.  Slug design and casting were worked out over several weeks at the hot pot and at a sand pile in a gravel pit.  After that there's residual moisture from swabbing, "battery" layout and consistently getting back into it for the next shot... way too many answers to choose from... that's my opinion.   Is this another pole??  ;D
 
So is it okay to start procurement activity for the 1/2 scale wheels?  Cutting and fabbing the irons?  Lamininating up the trailstock and cheek stocks?  I have a magnetic chuck for the mill that works great for tapering cheek-stock irons and the trail plate.  I also have a 1/2 scale (somewhat fudged) Ordnance Rifle (turned from a 40mm BOFORS) that would make a great barrel to switch with the Type I James barrel in the same carriage.  Also a 2.25" shell mill for facing the trunnion rim-bases.  Gee I can hardly wait to get back to rifle shooting...
 
GOW/George
 
 
 

Offline Victor3

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  WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTING FACTOR WHICH CAUSED THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL  SEACOAST TUBE TO BE ACCURATE?

 That's an easy one. It's the way you cut the bbl channel on center of the log to within .00001" of the C/L of the bore, scientificably stabilized its grain structure and precision bedded the bbl into it...
 
 
 
Quote
   
 
 
 
 

 And the muffler clamps were the icing on the cake.  ;D
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline seacoastartillery

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  This is the tube that shot that target. 18" long, 1.0002" to 1.0000" breech to muzzle I.D.,  ...     
 
 Just curious, I'm assuming you finished the id past the initial DOM id.  Did you bore, hone, or ream it?
 

      In this particular case you assumed too much, Burnsby, but don't worry about that; I do it all the time.  This was the only piece of tube stock we had at that time, so we were a little skeptical when we inspected it.  We were floored when we found it to be better than the excellent size and straightness numbers we were told to expect from D.O.M. mechanical tubing.  No gundrilling or reaming or honing was done, it was used as is.  We had a 10 foot piece, so we just made a rifling head to fit.
 
 
     GOW   Besides McMaster Carr, we depend on MSC as well.  2 to 3 day service ain't bad.  I remember going through Billings, MT once and I remember remarking, "Was that it; did I miss anything?"  As you have already figured out, my jabs were made in fun and, from our experience maybe the heat treater you used was the only good one in Denver.  Mike got burned by one who turned his straight, carefully made stainless steel transfer stand shafts into piles of twisted spaghetti!  Boy was he ever upset!  So, he made them over and a second heat treater jacked them up almost as bad as the first.  We bought a heat treat furnace after that and only destroyed a few parts with it as part of the learning curve.
 
 GOW wrote:
 "So is it okay to start procurement activity for the 1/2 scale wheels?  Cutting and fabbing the irons?  Lamininating up the trailstock and cheek stocks?  I have a magnetic chuck for the mill that works great for tapering cheek-stock irons and the trail plate.  I also have a 1/2 scale (somewhat fudged) Ordnance Rifle (turned from a 40mm BOFORS) that would make a great barrel to switch with the Type I James barrel in the same carriage.  Also a 2.25" shell mill for facing the trunnion rim-bases.  Gee I can hardly wait to get back to rifle shooting."
 
      Don't do all that unless you are serious about making that Bofors tube a home.  Our "expand the lathe" project is still 9 months away and stuff happens to the most serious plans.  About the big question, probably too simplistic to be serious, I guess.  Shooting conditions have a lot to do with it too, load development and all that.  I guess we were surprised about what could be done with an unfinished tube.  Consistency of groove cutting probably saved our butts, I can't imagine what else it could be.
 
 
 
   WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTING FACTOR WHICH CAUSED THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL  SEACOAST TUBE TO BE ACCURATE?
 
  That's an easy one. It's the way you cut the bbl channel on center of the log to within .00001" of the C/L of the bore, scientificably stabilized its grain structure and precision bedded the bbl into it...
 
 
 
Quote
     
 
 
 
 
 
  And the muffler clamps were the icing on the cake.  ;D     

 
       Ah, a little role reversal here, eh Victor?  I always thought you were the serious technician and I was the comedian.  Guess that pre-conceived notion does not always hold water.
 
      Actually, that's an excellent answer, Victor, and I really appreciate that final comment about the muffler clamps!  Icing on the cake, indeed.  Just remember this, "Paybacks are a Beach!"  ;) ;)
 
 Tracy
 
       
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline gunsonwheels

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Tracy wrote:
 
Quote
Don't do all that unless you are serious about making that Bofors tube a home.

Well if nothing else the very plans for the James I project have given added reason to prioritize and get the half scale carriage and BOFORS Ord Rifle up and operational...  And I like that as the finisher I will have control of the interface(s) (i.e. the trunnions) with the additional tube.  If the James I doesn't fit the carriage I have nobody to blame but myself.  :-[

I too get a fair amount from MSC but also their sister company Enco (both are part of the the same corporation).  In the old days, in the Seattle area, Boeing had a surplus outlet store and sold cutters for $2.00 a pound... Sometime you could find just what you were looking for and it was still coated/dipped fresh out of the grind shop.  Ahh... the range outside the door does come at a price... but maybe the whole reason I left Seattle was Boeing closed down that surplus store...  :)
 
GOW/George
 
 

Offline gunsonwheels

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I wrote this up for the "trunnion thread" but wanted to post it also here as it is most applicable here...
 
Many finished, rifled ordnance barrels are built up by over-sleeving a rifled mil-surp tube which has been turned down to look exactly like M&T's test barrel in the thread above.  After turning the OD of that tube to a very consistent dimension (probably no more than .002" total variation), they get some precision boring company (if they don't have the tools and abillity themselves) to drill/bore/hone sleeve(s) which are .001" to .003" smaller than the core's OD.  The sleeve(s) are then heat shrunk over the outside of the rifled core and welded at the interfaces on the OD (between sleeves) and the ID (both between sleeves and at the ends).  In many cases the sleeving will take the form of not a single sleeve the total length of the barrel but two or three.  Most of my designs call for a single sleeve leading up to the trunnions and two additional sleeves forward of the trunnions.   All the OD welds are planned so they will turn down smooth when the finished barrel's profile is machined.  The reason whole-length sleeving is avoided is to reduce the chance of the sleeve locking onto the core as it is heated and slid onto that core before it is fully seated into its planned position.  And of course after all the work above is added turning a cascabel and profiling the finished barrel's OD.
 
For some of us designer/fabricators there is another sleeve added to the OUTSIDE DIAMETER sleeves...
 
The pic is of the 4" thick plate trunnion section sleeve stock...  It is set up on the mill and precision bored the hole which goes over the rifle core.  Mounted in the lathe and turn the trunnions, rim-base faces and start of the rim-base shoulders.  Include the sleeve in the sleeving buildup over the rifled core.  After turning the profile of the fininshed barrel, hand blend the balance of the rimbases and diameter sections where the trunnions prevented lathe turning that part of the OD.
 
For those of you left still reading... THIS is why M&T's offer to do blind hole drilled and rifled tubes WITH SUFFICIENT OD TO TURN A FINISHED BARREL is such an enormous time-saving offer...
 
At the Casper, WY shoot a couple years ago I questioned all the rifle shooters and MOST had gone through the long, arduous procedure above.  A few others had full-length sleeved and welded trunnions onto the outer sleeve.  Anyway other than a Seacoast Artillery barrel blank is a TON of work... and that will be work enough for most!!
 
GOW/George

Offline Double D

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I wrote this up for the "trunnion thread" but wanted to post it also here as it is most applicable here...
 
Many finished, rifled ordnance barrels are built up by over-sleeving a rifled mil-surp tube which has been turned down to look exactly like M&T's test barrel in the thread above.  After turning the OD of that tube to a very consistent dimension (probably no more than .002" total variation), they get some precision boring company (if they don't have the tools and abillity themselves) to drill/bore/hone sleeve(s) which are .001" to .003" smaller than the core's OD.  The sleeve(s) are then heat shrunk over the outside of the rifled core and welded at the interfaces on the OD (between sleeves) and the ID (both between sleeves and at the ends).  In many cases the sleeving will take the form of not a single sleeve the total length of the barrel but two or three.  Most of my designs call for a single sleeve leading up to the trunnions and two additional sleeves forward of the trunnions.   All the OD welds are planned so they will turn down smooth when the finished barrel's profile is machined.  The reason whole-length sleeving is avoided is to reduce the chance of the sleeve locking onto the core as it is heated and slid onto that core before it is fully seated into its planned position.  And of course after all the work above is added turning a cascabel and profiling the finished barrel's OD.
 
For some of us designer/fabricators there is another sleeve added to the OUTSIDE DIAMETER sleeves...
 
The pic is of the 4" thick plate trunnion section sleeve stock...  It is set up on the mill and precision bored the hole which goes over the rifle core.  Mounted in the lathe and turn the trunnions, rim-base faces and start of the rim-base shoulders.  Include the sleeve in the sleeving buildup over the rifled core.  After turning the profile of the fininshed barrel, hand blend the balance of the rimbases and diameter sections where the trunnions prevented lathe turning that part of the OD.
 
For those of you left still reading... THIS is why M&T's offer to do blind hole drilled and rifled tubes WITH SUFFICIENT OD TO TURN A FINISHED BARREL is such an enormous time-saving offer...
 
At the Casper, WY shoot a couple years ago I questioned all the rifle shooters and MOST had gone through the long, arduous procedure above.  A few others had full-length sleeved and welded trunnions onto the outer sleeve.  Anyway other than a Seacoast Artillery barrel blank is a TON of work... and that will be work enough for most!!
 
GOW/George

George,

What pre 1899 design used this method?  I think the Whitworth may have.  We haven't covered many guns for the period between the end of the American Civil War to 1899.

Offline The Jeff

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I wrote this up for the "trunnion thread" but wanted to post it also here as it is most applicable here...
 
Many finished, rifled ordnance barrels are built up by over-sleeving a rifled mil-surp tube which has been turned down to look exactly like M&T's test barrel in the thread above.  After turning the OD of that tube to a very consistent dimension (probably no more than .002" total variation), they get some precision boring company (if they don't have the tools and abillity themselves) to drill/bore/hone sleeve(s) which are .001" to .003" smaller than the core's OD.  The sleeve(s) are then heat shrunk over the outside of the rifled core and welded at the interfaces on the OD (between sleeves) and the ID (both between sleeves and at the ends).  In many cases the sleeving will take the form of not a single sleeve the total length of the barrel but two or three.  Most of my designs call for a single sleeve leading up to the trunnions and two additional sleeves forward of the trunnions.   All the OD welds are planned so they will turn down smooth when the finished barrel's profile is machined.  The reason whole-length sleeving is avoided is to reduce the chance of the sleeve locking onto the core as it is heated and slid onto that core before it is fully seated into its planned position.  And of course after all the work above is added turning a cascabel and profiling the finished barrel's OD.
 
For some of us designer/fabricators there is another sleeve added to the OUTSIDE DIAMETER sleeves...
 
The pic is of the 4" thick plate trunnion section sleeve stock...  It is set up on the mill and precision bored the hole which goes over the rifle core.  Mounted in the lathe and turn the trunnions, rim-base faces and start of the rim-base shoulders.  Include the sleeve in the sleeving buildup over the rifled core.  After turning the profile of the fininshed barrel, hand blend the balance of the rimbases and diameter sections where the trunnions prevented lathe turning that part of the OD.
 
For those of you left still reading... THIS is why M&T's offer to do blind hole drilled and rifled tubes WITH SUFFICIENT OD TO TURN A FINISHED BARREL is such an enormous time-saving offer...
 
At the Casper, WY shoot a couple years ago I questioned all the rifle shooters and MOST had gone through the long, arduous procedure above.  A few others had full-length sleeved and welded trunnions onto the outer sleeve.  Anyway other than a Seacoast Artillery barrel blank is a TON of work... and that will be work enough for most!!
 
GOW/George

George,

What pre 1899 design used this method?  I think the Whitworth may have.  We haven't covered many guns for the period between the end of the American Civil War to 1899.


I think gunsonwheels is talking about making a replica cannon from modern barrels. Due to better materials modern barrels can get away with thinner walls, so the aesthetics will be off if you don't sleeve it.


Some of the main pre 1899 guns to use multiple sleeves that immediately jumps to my mind are the Armstrong guns. Take a look at this drawing: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/RML_17.72_inch_gun_diagram.jpg You can see how the trunnion band is physically prevented from moving forward by the 3 C. Coil, and an interlocking notch in the 2 C. Coil.

Offline gunsonwheels

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To: The Jeff
 
Thanks for your input.  I am glad to see someone else appreciates the frustration a lot of enthusiats have of trying to build AN ACCURATELY REPRODUCED Civil War ordnance piece. 
 
DD:
 
There is historical data to support ordnance is legal to own and shoot IF that piece of ordnance is a pre-1899 original or it replicates a historical piece pre-dating 1899.  There is nothing in the current laws about using pre-1899 methods to produce those replicas.   
 
But let's suppose I do go just on what is stated and an "exact replica" is the only thing allowed:
 
There were NO smoothbore Parrots so all you who have GB parrots from HMR or others... they will not be allowed.  Same for any other scale of ANY piece that was originally rifled but you built (or bought) it as a smoothbore.
 
South Bend Replicas have long produced the exterior aesthetics without replicating the rifled bores so they will also not be allowed.  Same for Hern Iron's and LaPan's barrels.
 
And the several "built-up" pieces I have indicated, while they replicate the exterior aesthetics and they DO have rifling (making them more authentic than a smootbore replica) that rifling is not an original hook-type, James-type or other original design so they too will not be allowed.
 
The only pieces allowed would be accurate replicas of not only the exterior aesthetics but also rifled with the exact configuration with which the original was done.  Over the last 45 years those barrels have been either non-existent or, at best, the highest priced, most difficult to obtain.
 
So it would end up that the only folks allowed to play at our sport would be..??
 
Thanks to M&T at Seacoast anyone interested, is going to be able to get A LOT CLOSER for a LOT LESS MONEY.  Maybe I am the only old enough member/builder/shooter to realize that..??  I don't think so...

Offline Double D

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How can it be a replica if it has thinner walls?

As steel development increased creating stronger steels artillery  was developed with thinner and thinner barrels.  Tremendous advancements in all types of arms occurred during the time period of the 1850s-1900.

The shrinking of a band on an existing rifle bore should make a constriction in the bore under the band.

I think what George is describing was one of the advanced practices in artillery construction evolution. I think the ordnance folks called such barrel construction barrel lamination.  Part of the process would of course be the trunnion ring,

I should look it up before typing, but I think the band shrinking process was replaced the autofrettage process.


Offline Cannon Cocker

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Gunsonwheels,

I too appreciate the accuracy that is being given to the Seacoastartillery barrels, but as long as you're talking about exact replicas, and guns that would not be allowed if the law called for exact replicas, then wouldn't sub-scale replicas also not be allowed. 

If this last statement provokes anyone in particular into making me a few full scale barrels, it was not my intention........mostly. 



Offline GGaskill

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... wouldn't sub-scale replicas also not be allowed?

Or underbored full scale barrels?
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Victor3

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 Don't forget about whatever you're mounting that perfect replica barrel on. I assume that the carriage (and every piece of hardware on it) would be considered part of the cannon.  ;)
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline PaulB

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Thanks to M&T at Seacoast anyone interested, is going to be able to get A LOT CLOSER for a LOT LESS MONEY.  Maybe I am the only old enough member/builder/shooter to realize that..??  I don't think so...
You're not  the only one that appreciates what M&T are trying to accomplish. We're very fortunate to have so much talent attempting a project of this magnatude, and if they're successful..... it will be a dream come true! Thank you!
Paul
 

Offline Double D

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How can it be a replica if it has thinner walls?
 



when will I ever learn to proof read before posting---probably never.

I left a sentence out.  Let me restate will all the sentences

How can it be a replica if it has thinner walls?  I think the real reason folks are looking a making cannons with thinner walls it to use smaller OD materials to get a bigger bore.  It may be to use a a piece of unknownium pipe or tube they found in a scrap yard, but mostly I think it is from a lack of knowledge.

Offline gunsonwheels

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Thanks  PaulB  for your remarks of appreciation for/to Mike and Tracy.  It is HUGE what they are attempting to do for our "community".
 
Quote
Don't forget about whatever you're mounting that perfect replica barrel on. I assume that the carriage (and every piece of hardware on it) would be considered part of the cannon.  ;)

Yeh I remember laminating the cheek-stocks so I could use a core box router bit to channel the eye and chin bolt holes so they would stay in the middle of the wood when final sized.  Every piece and every fabricator ends up compromising with what they have available to get a "fire and smoke" ordnance piece up and shooting.  Tools, materials, talents and abilities, pocket book, et.al. all go into a potpourri mix to end up shooting (or saluting).
 
One my most memorable experiences was attending an ordnance match where two brothers showed up with about four foot long 20mm surplus barrels which had been plugged, trunnioned and nicely carriaged, not built up and  no relationship to anything anyone ever saw before but nevertheless "shooters".  It wouldn't be fair to have those "squirrel guns" shoot against the other folks but after the brothers building, developing everything necessary to shoot and showing up to shoot, it wouldn't be nice (at the least) to send them packing.  I studied the match director (who was also the the match sponsor...  he's also the guy who sold Pawn Stars their BB mortar and is a major GOEX distributor here in the mountain west) to see what he'd do.   I'll tell you later what he did but...
 
If you were that match director, how would you handle the situation and what would you do? ? ?   

Offline GGaskill

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Set up a separate class for them and any others like them.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Double D

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Look to the rules for the match and make a decision.


Offline gunsonwheels

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Cannon Cocker:
 
Here's the pic I promised of Curly's slug.  Again the rifled portion is somewhat abreviated compared to a few others I have seen
 
 

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Gunsonwheels,

Thanks for the pic.  I remember you talking about the technique this guy had in a previous post where someone wanted to make a pre-engraved bolt for a 2.25" mountain rifle.  I tried it with my mountain rifle and I should warn you that it does not work well with saw tooth, or hook slant rifling, or most likely with similar styles.  The sloped side of the projectile gets jambed in the bore when you try to put it down, kind of like a door stop.  I have .02 windage on the projo in the picture and it would still get jambed almost every time.  I even tried mounting a 2" hole saw blade on the end of a rammer.  The teeth would bite into the end of the nose and I would try to twist it clockwise down the barrel to try to keep the flat faces against each other, but it would still jamb to the point of having to be extracted.  In rifling with squared faces (like the bofors barrel) I'm sure it probably works great and I will use it in the 40mm I'm building, but beware of trying it with other styles with ramp up configuration.     

Offline seacoastartillery

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 I should look it up before typing, but I think the band shrinking process was replaced the autofrettage process.   

     Not that we are anticipating the construction of a "built-up" gun at this time, we have scheduled one to be built in the two year period beginning in autumn of 2013.  It will be the next and final gun in our "Magnificent Seacoast Gun Series", the 8", 150 Pdr. Armstrong Gun, a seacoast rifle of the finest quality made in England for the Confederate States of America.  Two arrived in 1864 and were captured in 1865 by Federal troops at the Battle of Fort Fisher, North Carolina and later at Fort Caswell nearby.
 
      Anyway, DD brings up an interesting process which is described thusly by J. W. Ryan, Royal Military College of Science, Shrivenham, UK: "When autofrettage is used for strengthening cannon barrels, the barrel is bored to a slightly undersized inside diameter, and then a slightly oversized die is pushed through the barrel. The amount of initial underbore and size of the die are calculated to strain the material past its elastic limit into plastic deformation, sufficiently far that the final strained diameter is the final desired bore." 
 
      An interesting reference to classic, built up guns is also obtained from Ryan:  "The effect is that the inner layers of the metal are put under compression by the outer layers in much the same way as though an outer layer of metal had been shrunk on as with a built-up gun."  How about a little terminology here:  The "Bands" that DD mentions are the way CSN Commander Brooke described the 2" thick and approx. 6" wide wrought iron reinforcing bands that were used in 1850s, 60s and 70s reinforced cast iron tube guns. "Sleeves" are much more modern and this term is used for the 1880s and 1890s practice of breech or muzzle insertion of 8" rifled tubes into 10" Rodman Guns AND today this term is used for muzzle insertion of rifled sleeves into oversize cast iron bores on 10 Pdr. Parrotts or 3" Ordnance Rifles. "Liners", by contrast is the term used for the steel tube which is located within the cast iron artillery tube flask and has the molten iron poured around it.  Built-up guns like the 8" Armstrong are said to be composed of "Tubes", generally the innermost cast iron or cast steel structures and "Hoops", the middle layers of machined, heat shrunk wrought iron or steel structures. "Jackets" are outer layers of reinforcment heat shrunk into position and "Rings" refer to mechanically fitted, but usually NOT heat shrunk, circular, applied structures which have trunnions forge-welded to them or machined from a solid billet as we do.
 
      Thanks to all for the nice comments on our Rifled Cannon Blanks.  We sure hope they save you time and also money.  After GOW described that process of making a modern repro built-up gun, I thought, "Good golly, who would sign up for all that??  Serious competitors, that's who!  Real serious.  Our idea and future product is just another way of creating an accurate rifle with historical profile possibilities without some of the work and most of the complexity.
 
      By the way, we have pictures of one little item that you or your machinist will have to make if you go the Mil-Surp route to make your cannon.  To make this applied "Trunnion Ring", we started with a 35 pound chunk of 4150 steel plate 2" thick, pre-hardened to 30 Rockwell on the "C" scale.
 
 Tracy
 
 
 The ring after about 30 minutes on the band-saw and 40 minutes on the mill to drill centers for lathe operations.
 
 
 
 
 After turning the trunnion diameters and then drilling and boring out the 5.25" tapered hole for the cannon tube, the Ring goes to the mill and rotary table for exterior profiling.  Protrusions are included for the front sight mass, the indexing masses which keep the trunnions horizontal and the square rimbase radii, 4X.
 
 
 
 
 The trunnion ring applied to the1/6 scale 7" Brooke Seacoast and Navy Rifle.
 
 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Tracy,

Speaking of mil-surp barrels.  How long will it be before I can get a 4' long 1.75" bore tube from you guys so I don't have to mess around with 40mm barrels?



Offline gunsonwheels

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M&T
 
I had a few pieces of 3" Naval ordnance and was struggling to bore out the rifling... carbide, ceramic, nothing worked so I took it to a small heat treater in the Seattle area.  The guy who normalized it for me (yeh I didn't even want to chance air-hardening) said he worked for Watervliet, the alloy of my "stuff" was 4357 and after rifling but before finishing they left the ability to attach hydraulic couplings to the tubes.  They then stress hardened the bores by cycling about 60,000 psi of hydraulic pressure in the bore for about two days.  About one 0-60K cycle per second.  They end up with alternating hard and softer rings in the steel very reminicient of growth rings in a tree.  When we cut theses pieces with a carbide tipped cut-off saw the alternating hard and softer rings were very apparent in the cut face.  The bore as I indicated was glass hard. 
 
I very much appreciated your explanations above... it contributes to the history of how the ordnance business got from your descriptions of processes through the 1800's to Watervliet's of WWII.  Kinda makes the "built-up" CW replica boys seem not so crazy to go to all the work they do...
 
Did you not say previously you could provide whatever rifling configuration the customer requested for their barrel blanks??
 
GOW/George

Offline seacoastartillery

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     Cannon Cocker,    Our schedule is explained below:


Now until August 2012                       Finish and Deliver four  7" Brooke Treble-Banded Seacoast and Navy Rfiles

August - November 2012                   Tool up for and Develop the 1" Rifled Cannon Blanks and a few "special projects"

November 2012 - February 2013       Completely Re-Organize and Re-tool the shop to Gundrill, Ream and Rifle longer 48" Cannons

February - May 2013                          Develop the 1.75" Rifled Cannon Blank including Accuracy testing


    Some flexibility will be allowed in this schedule, but not much, however changes may occur due to unforeseen events.  About $10,000 will be required to buy the tooling and convert our machines and build larger fixtures to do this work and much more, about $24,000 if we decide to buy a new, larger lathe rather than convert the present one.  We are looking at a 16 X 120 lathe right now.

Tracy and Mike


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Soot

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So, how do you grab a 4 sided piece in a 3 jaw chuck?

Offline Cannon Cocker

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Thanks for the update.  You probably posted that schedule before.  I'll be waiting by the phone.