Rifled Cannon Liners (Sleeves) in 1.000" Bore size Coming Soon...........

[gunsonwheels]

About the match with the two brothers and their 20mm "squirrel guns"...
 
DD:
I started shooting under matches sponsored by mountain men rendezvous (MMR).  Safety was run pretty much like sihlouette shoots with safety officers (gun inspections, proofings, etc.) and range officers (actually conducting the match and assuring safe range procedures were being followed).  When I moved to Seattle the only sponsoring organization in the area was the old Civil War Skirmish Assn.  If you didn't show up with a five-man, fully uniformed crew and rigidly follow 19th century gun drill you did not shoot.   THAT was another reason I moved back into the Mountain West to get back to the less formal way matches were run.
 
So your comment about "the rules of the match" is well received but it appears a lot of the MMR matches are not run with well documented rules... so...
 
GGaskel:
 

Set up a separate class for them and any others like them.

 
 
This is exactly what was done and Craig quickly came up with another "prize", "trophy" etc. for the "new Class".  The brothers effectively shot for comparison with the other ordnance there but for the awards were shooting against each other.  Every one had a good time and went away with a good feeling about the day's events.   My thoughts were "yeh... that's what it's all about!!"
 
Smoke, Fire and Thunder...   And a good time had by all 
 
GOW/George

[seacoastartillery]

 
 
 So, how do you grab a 4 sided piece in a 3 jaw chuck?   

      Soot,    Take a look at the the left edge of the plate spinning at 900 RPM.  You can see a type of "Lathe Dog" that we call a double cylinder dog.  The first cylinder is a dead center that is gripped by the 3 jaw chuck and whose point goes into a drilled center hole in the square trunnion end.  The other cylinder is a 4" long 3/8" dia. steel pin that is pressed into the side of a small steel rectangle which is clamped to the square trunnion.  The 3/8" pin is aligned with one of the chuck's jaws on the left (driving) side.  The whole thing turns as one object.  When you swap ends, a "V" cut in the steel rectangle allows clamping on the newly turned trunnion.
 
 
 
 
      Classic Cannons,    I bet that would work too!  A high-tek solution.
 
 
      To the Georges,  I like the concept of setting up "a class for them and others like them".  I tend to like things that are arranged to be inclusive rather than designed to exclude.  I like things that are less formal rather than more.  Besides the weather, this is the main reason that I took Horace Greeley's famous bit of advice contained in his July 13, 1865 editorial in the New York Tribune,  "GO WEST, young man and grow up with the country".
 
     Thought I would bring this to the top of the page to be easier to find:

   

Now until August 2012                       Finish and Deliver four  7" Brooke Treble-Banded Seacoast and Navy Rfiles

August - November 2012                   Tool up for and Develop the 1" Rifled Cannon Blanks and a few "special projects"

November 2012 - February 2013       Completely Re-Organize and Re-tool the shop to Gundrill, Ream and Rifle longer 48" Cannons

February - May 2013                          Develop the 1.75" Rifled Cannon Blank including Accuracy testing


    Some flexibility will be allowed in this schedule, but not much, however changes may occur due to unforeseen events.  About $10,000 will be required to buy the tooling and convert our machines and build larger fixtures to do this work and much more, about $24,000 if we decide to buy a new, larger lathe rather than convert the present one.  We are looking at a 16 X 120 lathe right now.

Tracy and Mike     

 

[Victor3]

So, how do you grab a 4 sided piece in a 3 jaw chuck?

 It appears to be that new kind of 3-jaw. I think it's called a "cluster chuck." 

[gunsonwheels]

Mike & Tracy wrote:
 

Some flexibility will be allowed in this schedule, but not much, however changes may occur due to unforeseen events.  About $10,000 will be required to buy the tooling and convert our machines and build larger fixtures to do this work and much more, about $24,000 if we decide to buy a new, larger lathe rather than convert the present one.  We are looking at a 16 X 120 lathe right now.

I wonder if a manual lathe choice on your part is anything like I have?
 
The size is very important but I demand a taper attachment (tapered cannons after all).
 
In order to clear out firing chambers, thread breeches and finish off the end of the cascabel there is the requirement for a large diameter steady-rest... preferably a roller tipped one so the surface the tips ride on doesn't have to be finished to journal-like smoothness.  I still don't have one for the SB 13x54 but it does have the taper attachment.   

[seacoastartillery]

So, how do you grab a 4 sided piece in a 3 jaw chuck?

 It appears to be that new kind of 3-jaw. I think it's called a "cluster chuck." 

     Victor,  you are becoming quite incorrigible, aren't you?  Actually that type of "lathe dog" was pretty simple compared to some we have built.  Our imaginations can come up with an endless variety when we remember what a pain it is to do the changeover from 3-Jaw Chuck to that big 'ole cast iron Faceplate. We do this when we are turning a 100 pound tube for safety reasons.  A threaded stud with washes and nuts from the faceplate, going into an offset hole in the extra length cascabel is the way we do all the heavy stuff.  Never have used a traditional forged iron "lathe dog" with it's characteristic "dog-leg" shape, yet.

     

Hi M & T
Good Idea mine isn't hi-tech but it did work for the cam feet i had made for a belt stop that i made a while ago befor i got the 5c collet for the lathe that uses the 3 jaw chucks. Or an independent 4 jaw chuck would work fine. In case its not square  I like 16c collets better i have a ton of them literly from a scrap deal i need to find a d 1-4 16c hardinge collet like the one below
Thanks Austin

     Classic Cannons,   Yes, those square hole collets sure are handy; we have a few for making bolts for our 1/6 scale seacoast cannons which are 1/2" square, 3/8" sq. and 1/4" sq.  They are very handy for making square headed bolts and nuts too.  Never have found one 2" square!

Mike & Tracy wrote:
 

Some flexibility will be allowed in this schedule, but not much, however changes may occur due to unforeseen events.  About $10,000 will be required to buy the tooling and convert our machines and build larger fixtures to do this work and much more, about $24,000 if we decide to buy a new, larger lathe rather than convert the present one.  We are looking at a 16 X 120 lathe right now.

 
I wonder if a manual lathe choice on your part is anything like I have?
 
The size is very important but I demand a taper attachment (tapered cannons after all).
 
In order to clear out firing chambers, thread breeches and finish off the end of the cascabel there is the requirement for a large diameter steady-rest... preferably a roller tipped one so the surface the tips ride on doesn't have to be finished to journal-like smoothness.  I still don't have one for the SB 13x54 but it does have the taper attachment.   

     George,   We are believers in roller type steady rests which are so forgiving in use and less messy too!  We made a few super accurate specialized steady rests for gundrilling and reaming using precision pillow blocks, but a LARGE universal roller rest is essential.   We are thinking now about buying an excellent condition used  Leblond  17 X 120 lathe so we can make 1/2 scale cannon like the 12 Pdr. Whitworth and the Confederate Gorgas 12 Pdr. Siege Rifle and others that are a bit longer.  The rifling machine will be expanded by a full 24" which will give us a capacity to rifle a 60" O.A.L. tube with a 54" rifled bore. 

Tracy

     

[GGaskill]

... an excellent condition used  Leblond  17 X 120 lathe ...

Being the owner of a couple of LeBlond Regals 15x36 and 17x54), I feel I should remind you to check the lowest speed gears for all their teeth before putting your money on the table.  I am sure you would but it doesn't hurt to speak from experience.

[seacoastartillery]

    A few days ago GOW asked this question which we did not notice.  Upon review of this thread we came across it and will answer it, of course.
 
 "Did you not say previously you could provide whatever rifling configuration the customer requested for their barrel blanks??"
 
      Yes, we probably stuck our necks out by saying that.  However, you must realize that while a change from Parrott form rifling to James form might only cost $20 extra, creating a whole new hook cutter with some form that we do not have or is difficult to grind may cost a bit more.  Any of the Hook-Slant forms such as the Blakely form will be inexpensive, because we have already figured out the geometry for the Brooke form, which is by far the most complex of the Hook-Slants including Blakely, Scott, etc..
 
 
 

... an excellent condition used  Leblond  17 X 120 lathe ...
 
 Being the owner of a couple of LeBlond Regals 15x36 and 17x54), I feel I should remind you to check the lowest speed gears for all their teeth before putting your money on the table.  I am sure you would but it doesn't hurt to speak from experience.
 

 
 
      Thanks, George, we appreciate the tip.  We would, of course, inspect any machine of substantial worth which we contemplated purchasing.  Fortunately we retained all of our inspection equipment from the old days and still know how to use it.  If the lathe is capable of turning parts accurately we will know it, but we see the electronics and wiring as something of a crap shoot.  But, we figure if it runs at the point of sale, it will probably run we get it to our shop and we do have a friend who is a knowledgeable electrician.
 
 Tracy and Mike
   

[dominick]

M&T,  I like your idea for turn squares with a three jaw.  I used to bore a short piece of tubing to slip over the 4 points of the square and tack weld it to prevent turning.  But hey, that's what us welders do.    Dom

[gunsonwheels]

M&T
 
Thanks for your reply re: rifling forms... truth is I prefer to stay away from any of the hook-slant forms.  I think that's one of the reasons why I have always preferred the James form.  It's a little more like modern forms except for its wider land configuration.  The BOFORS have lands which are about one half the width of the grooves.  I remember the James as being about equal width lands and grooves... but nevertheless... flat grooves and no slants or hooks.  I haven't been in Ripley's book for a while so if I am wrong I'd appreciate a "heads up"...
 
GOW

[seacoastartillery]

     Thanks for the replies, Dom and GOW.  Wish we could weld, it would make some things so smoother and quicker too.  We like Parrott, Sawyer, and James rifling best, but we wanted to indicate that other types are doable as well.

     We thought at this time it might be good to explain exactly how we produce rifling after the tube has been gundrilled straight and reamed smooth.  How exactly do you operate a simple rifling machine?

We will gladly answer any questions you may have.

Mike and Tracy


Please ignore the last 25 seconds where the camera lost focus as the battery faded.  Watch in particular how the tube is rotated so the next groove can be cut.  Please remember that you are seeing only a total of .00015" (one tenthousanth fifty millionths) of depth being cut on 2 or 3 separate grooves.  A total of 1,073 strokes is required to get the Brooke, 7 groove tubes cut down to .023" deep on each groove.  Along with gundrilling and then reaming and center drilling and handling this is about 3 days of work, and 4 days for 15 groove tubes. Click on image to play this clip.  Warning dial up users; this is a Large file. This clip is different from the others we have posted.  It shows all the workings of the machine, not just the front or back details.

[The Jeff]

We thought at this time it might be good to explain exactly how we produce rifling after the tube has been gundrilled straight and reamed smooth.  How exactly do you operate a simple rifling machine?

Wow, thanks for the video. That's an incredible amount of work! I knew you spent a lot of effort rifling your tubes, but I didn't realize it was quite that much!

[GGaskill]

I like how freely the cut seems to be.  But there has to be some simple procedural change that would eliminate the walking back and forth; that seemed to take almost half of the time for each stroke.

[Victor3]

... an excellent condition used  Leblond  17 X 120 lathe ...

Being the owner of a couple of LeBlond Regals 15x36 and 17x54), I feel I should remind you to check the lowest speed gears for all their teeth before putting your money on the table.  I am sure you would but it doesn't hurt to speak from experience.

 And if it's a "Servo-Shift" model, good idea to change it through all speeds to make sure it engages solidly at each setting.
 
 I ran one where the spindle would slip out of gear in the middle of a cut once in a while.

[Cannon Cocker]

While others have commented on the difficulty of the endeavor, I as a future buyer must say that it looks like you could whip one up for me very quickly. 

[gunsonwheels]

Yeh...
 
It's all about simply knowing what you are doing  AND only having the right tools...

[seacoastartillery]

     You are right, Jeff, there are quite a few things to do when you make a cannon tube or a Rifled Cannon Blank.  Just to give some of the new members an idea of what is involved in taking two inches of the muzzle of the tube off after rifling to insure the best quality rifling exists there at that crucial location, we will post a few pics.  Two of these were posted before on a 7" Brooke update, but are required for this series to be complete.
 
 
 
 Mike and Tracy carefully load a rifled tube into the lathe for a muzzle cut-off operation.  Not shown is Mike's remembering to block the end of the cascabel with a little 1/2" thick piece of wood to keep the chuck jaws away from the finished reverse radius on the breech.
 
 
 
 
Seen there is one of many steady rest rings we have made, this one with a tapered I.D. to fit the tube's chase properly.  The roller steady rest must have a cylindrical surface to run on.  The tube is barely held for the photo, still left to be done is extending the tailstock arbor and live center so the tailstock body can be moved to the right and the saddle moved to the right and then the steady rest moved, closed and tightened and finally the 3 jaw chuck tightened and the chuck wrench removed. We ALWAYS look at the chuck BEFORE we lift the GO lever!! 
 
 
 
 
 Proper adjustment of the steady rest on the ring is important if a smooth cut is to be made.  No jumping or wobbling tubes allowed!
 you can see the cut off tool or "parting tool" is shown starting the cut.
 
 
 
 
 The parting tool deep into the cut just before separation occurs.  You have to watch the muzzle section like a hawk here for the first signs of wobble.  We stop the lathe at this point and finish with a hacksaw.  We DO NOT want the cut off piece to fall down and pivot, jamming and possibly damaging the muzzle! 
 
 
 
 
 Here you can see the light colored grooves and the darker lands of the 1 in 55" R.H. Brooke triangular or modified hook-slant rifling.  Notice how smooth the face of the cut off piece is, evidence of a perpendicular to tube axis cut off tool and Plenty of dark cutting oil.
 
 
 
 
 
      Cannon Cocker,  this is just one of 22 tasks we have to do on each Rifled Cannon Blank before shipment.  One of those tasks takes a full day or two depending.  Each of these set-ups takes as much care as the maker is able to muster for an excellent outcome to occur.  The rifling process is very repetitive and boring, yet one mistake can ruin the whole effort.  We know; we have made them!  In fact, in Mike's basement there is a bench under which there is a bunch of rifling mistake tubes stacked up like cordwood.  The important thing is this:  "We never sold one to a customer".  3,000 dollars of scrap, learning curve, tubes are waiting for a larger size, 1/6 scale cannon to be wanted so they can be reamed out and rifled again.  Cannon Cocker writes: "I as a future buyer must say that it looks like you could whip one up for me very quickly."  Thanks for your vote of confidence!  Time will tell.
 
     

 I like how freely the cut seems to be.  But there has to be some simple procedural change that would eliminate the walking back and forth; that seemed to take almost half of the time for each stroke.   

     George,    The hook cutter is as sharp as we and diamond wheels can make it.  The Swedish tool steel that we use can cut two of these tubes without sharpening, more than two thousand strokes.  The reason for all the walking is that when we switched from practice tubes to customer cannon tubes we went from 1018 and 1026 steel to Rc 30 pre-hardened 4150 steel, modern high pressure ordnance steel, and to avoid the cutter skipping and gouging the bore surface as it dug in from near the end of the blind hole we had to introduce a positive way to keep the hook cutter support wedge, rock solid.  A heat treated rod goes through the 4130 thick walled tube that forms our rifling head shaft into a threaded hole in the back face of the wedge.  Just before cutting a new groove the wedge is immobilized by tightening by a nut at the other end.  After the stroke, the nut is loosened to allow the cutter to drop a little on the way back.
 
      Victor,   We don't see Servo-Shift in the description. but we will check this out.  Thanks!
 
       GOW,   We try NOT to buy the wrong tool, then two weeks later buy the Right one.  Unfortunately, we have done that before. 
 
 Tracy

[Cannon Cocker]

Tracy,  I hope you realize I was kidding about how easy it is to make the barrels you are making.  I have made guns, and I know how much time and effort it takes.  The pun was that if I acknowledge how much work it is, I am raising the price on myself.  It probably wasn't that apparent. 

[seacoastartillery]

Tracy,  I hope you realize I was kidding about how easy it is to make the barrels you are making.  I have made guns, and I know how much time and effort it takes.  The pun was that if I acknowledge how much work it is, I am raising the price on myself.  It probably wasn't that apparent.     

    Yes I realize that, but there are others here who don't and there are some, who will jump on the cheapest things that are being made and wonder why their friends laugh when they show up at the range with them.  We get it; most others do, but not all.
Tracy

[gunsonwheels]

M&T
 
I am impressed with the velocity... As an old schooler I have believed we couldn't get projo's over the speed of sound.  I agree about the massive amount of energy.  It does require I go back and rerun my calculations for trunnion forces and their effective weld area requirements.  They were all previously done at 1100 FPS as I didn't have a chrono and never heard the trailing vacuum slap of a supersonic projo as it went downrange.
 
GOW/George 

[seacoastartillery]

     GOW,    As far as the speed of muzzle loaded projectiles goes, the two examples that I remember which best illustrate velocities possible are the .32 cal. squirrel rifle loaded with a powder charge of 30 grains of FFg,  just under the heaviest recommended BP charge, shows that 2,000 fps is expected.  On the heavy projectile end, we can point to the velocity of the 15" Rodman Gun's 440 Lb. cored shot projectile which was higher than any other cannon, large bore or small, smooth bore or rifled, which was used during that time, at 1,750 fps.  Calculate the energy for that speedy pup!!
 
      The most accurate shooting we have done with the scale 100 Pdr. Parrott and the scale 7" Brooke Rifle is within the 1,200 fps to 1,300 fps velocity range which is the same velocity at which the original guns were accurately shot.  If Gary makes a trip up to Cody to see the foundry in July, we might tag along with several cannons and show up at your place to use your new, exclusive, private range!  We will break out the old Crony chronograph and see how fast some of your stuff goes.  Maybe the speeds could surprise you.
 
 Tracy

[Victor3]

On the heavy projectile end, we can point to the velocity of the 15" Rodman Gun's 440 Lb. cored shot projectile which was higher than any other cannon, large bore or small, smooth bore or rifled, which was used during that time, at 1,750 fps.  Calculate the energy for that speedy pup!!
  Tracy

 I get ~21,000,000 ft lbs. Is that correct or did I hit a wrong key? 

[gunsonwheels]

Tracy said:
 

The most accurate shooting we have done with the scale 100 Pdr. Parrott and the scale 7" Brooke Rifle is within the 1,200 fps to 1,300 fps velocity range which is the same velocity at which the original guns were accurately shot.  If Gary makes a trip up to Cody to see the foundry in July, we might tag along with several cannons and show up at your place to use your new, exclusive, private range!  We will break out the old Crony chronograph and see how fast some of your stuff goes.  Maybe the speeds could surprise you.

We'll leave a light on.  Have five beds in a detached building (four bunks and a queen bed with its own bathroom) so plan on staying a night or two.  We'll throw some brat on the barby and add some SO2 to the cook smoke.     We have 3Fg and 4Fa so if you want to burn others, BYOP.
 
GOW/George

[seacoastartillery]

   Victor,   21,000,000  sure looks good to me, after a little rounding on a huge number, 21,000,000 is correct.  If some of you are wondering how we got that, follow along here:    ME=M x V squared divided by the constant 450,400.  So we convert 440 pounds to grains avoir at 7,000 per pound for a total mass of 3,080,000 grs.  Velocity (1,750 fps) squared equals 3,062,500 fps  These two factors multiplied yield 94325 to the 12 power.  This is divided by the constant 450,400 to yield the answer, 20,942,495.56 Ft. Lbs. of muzzle energy, ME.  Rounded this figure becomes 21,000,000 Ft. Lbs.
 
      One of these guns was loaned to the British government after the Civil War and the very first test at Shoeburyness revealed what the Americans already knew, breathtaking power at close range!  The target was 4.5" of high quality wrought iron armor backed by a sturdy timber frame of some 4,000 pounds.  A schedule of firing tests were planned at 25 yards with 60 pounds of powder and 440 pound cored shot, and at subsequent ranges of 100 yds., 300 yds, 600 and 900 yds.  Upon the first discharge, the armor plate was torn in half, and the pieces tossed against the 100 yard butts.  Three quarters of the timbers were scattered between 100 and 200 yards.  And all this destruction was wrought by the lightest of the armor piercing loads, the range of which was from 60 to 100 pounds!
 
 
      Very cordial of you George!  And this is a wonderful welcome for people who showed no manners by inviting themselves!  Sounds great; we will keep in touch.
 
 
     At this time, I would like to steer the discussion back to rifling and , more specifically, to the different forms of rifling.  Maybe a few of you will tell us what your favorite is and why or perhaps you will want to take a chance on something completely unfamiliar.  We will display about a dozen forms over the next two days and will also tell you that we would like to maybe get a consensus on one of the odd forms and make an experimental tube to shoot it for fun and to see if it can provide some decent accuracy.  Here are a few to start.
 These were drawn from books and web sites like hallowellco.com and a few from Wiki and a few from old sites for which we have forgotten the names.
 
 Tracy
 
 
 This is Armstrong Shunt Rifling displayed in our photo taken of the 150 Pdr. 8-Inch Gun at West Point.  That thing that looks like a pie plate is the end of the cylindrical chamber with a 1" radius at the bottom.
 
 








 
 
This is why making the Armstrong Shunt Rifling is so problematic.  Studded projectiles or exterior flanged ones must be used with this type of rifling in order for them to be "shunted" to the proper groove before firing.





This is the 15 groove James Type I bore again with its flat grooves to contrast with the next cannon we photographed at Phippsburg, Maine.

 
 
 
 
 


This 100 Pdr. Parrott 1861 Seacoast and Navy Rifle at Fort Popham, Popham Beach, Maine has radiused groove bottoms which you can see clearly.
 
 
 



This Gast-Renette rifling form is hard to see, but we liked the photo so we included it.  Does anybody have any info on this form of rifling?  Sounds French to us.



 
 
 
 
 This is Britten form rifling from 1862.  Remember the shell that almost changed the outcome of the famous sea battle between the Federal Ship Kearsarge and the notorious Confederate Raider, CSS Alabama.  Alabama's 100 Pdr. Blakely gun fired it's Britten shell into Kearsarge's rudder post in 1864 off the coast of France.  If it had exploded and disabled the Kearsarge, the battle might have been a Rebel victory, but it didn't and the extremely successful raider, Alabama went to the bottom of the Atlantic that day.  Below is the end of the sea shanty, a poem about this event called "Roll Alabama Roll".

A shot from the forward pivot that day 
Blew the Alabama's steering gear away 

Off the three mile limit in sixty-four
She sank to the bottom of the ocean floor"

 
 
 
]

Our 1/6 scale 7" Brooke rifling showing grooves about 70% complete.       This is modified hook-slant or triangular rifling.
 
 


 
 
A 7" Brooke rifled tube at the Washington Navy Yard with triangular rifling taken off the raider CSS Florida.
 
 



The 1/6 scale 100 Pdr. Parrott rifling that we make.




Nelson 4-Bore rifling.  My secret wish is to someday have a 2-Bore rifled barrel with which to make a replica of Sir Samuel Baker's dangerous game rifle, "Baby".  He was fond of saying,  "She spun me around like a windvane in a hurricane!"  It fired a half pound, brass, explosive shell!!!




The famous Lancaster Oval Bore.




The also famous Whitworth Hexagonal form rifling.  I've seen quite a few references to this form as being "easy to cut" or easy to make.  The artillery version would be lots of things, but "easy to make" ain't one of them.  It's mechanically fitted projectiles were really good at scaring horses on the battle field due to their unique "warbling sound" and this type of rifling in the 12 Pounder Whitworth cannon was particularly good at keeping the Federal Blockade enforcing ships more than 3 miles off the North Carolina coast around the Cape Fear River mouth, because of it's accuracy, but "easy to make", No.




Well known Henry rifling from Scotland.




Enfield rifling from England used in millions of rifles and more suited to smokeless powder loads, superceeded the Metford form rifling in approx. 1895.




From Vicksburg, Mississippi we have the famous "Widow Blakely" muzzle showing it's unique, Blakely Hook-Slant rifling.




Finally the Scott form of rifling, so widely copied in modified form.  This one was complete with flanged bolts and shells normally.





 

[Victor3]

  The also famous Whitworth Hexagonal form rifling. 

 Hexagonal, you say? 
 
 
 I can imagine how triangular-form rifling might be superior to some others for use with an expanding skirt projectile. Sure seems like the skirt would readily grip the geometry upon firing and not want to let go.

[seacoastartillery]

    Oops, almost forgot this one Mike and I found on a trip to Norwich University in the Green Mountain State.  This is the rifling at the muzzle of one of the Spanish ship Viscaya's naval cannon taken as a trophy after a battle in the Spanish-American War in 1898.  It is very similar to Armstrong-Whitworth rifling of the same period.

[Victor3]

Nelson 4-Bore rifling.  My secret wish is to someday have a 2-Bore rifled barrel with which to make a replica of Sir Samuel Baker's dangerous game rifle, "Baby".  He was fond of saying, "She spun me around like a windvane in a hurricane!"  It fired a half pound, brass, explosive shell!!!

 And IIRC, later in life he also said of his 4-bores, "I wish now that I'd had nothing to do with them." The recoil had taken its toll, especially after his gun bearer double-loaded one once.

[seacoastartillery]

  The also famous Whitworth Hexagonal form rifling. 

 Hexagonal, you say? 
 
 
 I can imagine how triangular-form rifling might be superior to some others for use with an expanding skirt projectile. Sure seems like the skirt would readily grip the geometry upon firing and not want to let go.

     How about Octagonal?  That's what happens when you don't check what you find on the internet for accuracy,  Thanks Victor for correcting me!  And YES, we agree with you about that Hook-Slant rifling's form being ideally suited to expanding skirt or sabot type projos.  Probably had something to do with the success that Blakely and Brooke cannon had in the accuracy dept. Excellent point.

     Corrections to the following have been made in red:

   Victor,   21,000,000  sure looks good to me, after a little rounding on a huge number, 21,000,000 is correct.  If some of you are wondering how we got that, follow along here:    ME=M x V squared divided by the constant 450,400.  So we convert 440 pounds to grains avoir at 7,000 per pound for a total mass of 3,080,000 grs.  Velocity (1,750 fps) squared equals 3,062,500 fps  These two factors multiplied yield 94325 to the 12 power.  This is divided by the constant 450,400 to yield the answer, 20,942,495.56 Ft. Lbs. of muzzle energy, ME.  Rounded this figure becomes 21,000,000 Ft. Lbs.
 
      One of these guns was loaned to the British government after the Civil War and the very first test at Shoeburyness revealed what the Americans already knew, breathtaking power at close range!  The target was 4.5" of high quality wrought iron armor backed by a sturdy timber frame of some 4,000 pounds.  A schedule of firing tests were planned at 25 yards with 60 pounds of powder and 440 pound cored shot, and at subsequent ranges of 100 yds., 300 yds, 600 and 900 yds.  Upon the first discharge, the armor plate was torn in half, and the pieces tossed against the 100 yard butts.  Three quarters of the timbers were scattered between 100 and 200 yards.  And all this destruction was wrought by the lightest of the armor piercing loads, the range of which was from 60 to 100 pounds!
 
 
      Very cordial of you George!  And this is a wonderful welcome for people who showed no manners by inviting themselves!  Sounds great; we will keep in touch.
 
 
     At this time, I would like to steer the discussion back to rifling and , more specifically, to the different forms of rifling.  Maybe a few of you will tell us what your favorite is and why or perhaps you will want to take a chance on something completely unfamiliar.  We will display about a dozen forms over the next two days and will also tell you that we would like to maybe get a consensus on one of the odd forms and make an experimental tube to shoot it for fun and to see if it can provide some decent accuracy.  Here are a few to start.
 These were drawn from books and web sites like hallowellco.com and a few from Wiki and a few from old sites for which we have forgotten the names.
 
 Tracy
 
 
 This is Armstrong Shunt Rifling displayed in our photo taken of the 150 Pdr. 8-Inch Gun at West Point.  That thing that looks like a pie plate is the end of the cylindrical chamber with a 1" radius at the bottom.
 
 








 
 
This is why making the Armstrong Shunt Rifling is so problematic.  Studded projectiles or exterior flanged ones must be used with this type of rifling in order for them to be "shunted" to the proper groove before firing.





This is the 15 groove James Type I bore again with its flat grooves to contrast with the next cannon we photographed at Phippsburg, Maine.

 
 
 
 
 


This 100 Pdr. Parrott 1861 Seacoast and Navy Rifle at Fort Popham, Popham Beach, Maine has radiused groove bottoms which you can see clearly.
 
 
 



This Gast-Renette rifling form is hard to see, but we liked the photo so we included it.  Does anybody have any info on this form of rifling?  Sounds French to us.



 
 
 
 
 This is Britten form rifling from 1862.  Remember the shell that almost changed the outcome of the famous sea battle between the Federal Ship Kearsarge and the notorious Confederate Raider, CSS Alabama.  Alabama's 100 Pdr. Blakely gun fired it's Britten shell into Kearsarge's rudder post in 1864 off the coast of France.  If it had exploded and disabled the Kearsarge, the battle might have been a Rebel victory, but it didn't and the extremely successful raider, Alabama went to the bottom of the Atlantic that day.  Below is the end of the sea shanty, a poem about this event called "Roll Alabama Roll".

A shot from the forward pivot that day 
Blew the Alabama's steering gear away 

Off the three mile limit in sixty-four
She sank to the bottom of the ocean floor"

 
 
 
]

Our 1/6 scale 7" Brooke rifling showing grooves about 70% complete.       This is modified hook-slant or triangular rifling.
 
 


 
 
A 7" Brooke rifled tube at the Washington Navy Yard with triangular rifling taken off the raider CSS Florida.
 
 



The 1/6 scale 100 Pdr. Parrott rifling that we make.




Nelson 4-Bore rifling.  My secret wish is to someday have a 2-Bore rifled barrel with which to make a replica of Sir Samuel Baker's dangerous game rifle, "Baby".  He was fond of saying,  "She spun me around like a windvane in a hurricane!"  It fired a half pound, brass, explosive shell!!!




The famous Lancaster Oval Bore.




The "Thing" below IS NOT the famous Whitworth Hexagonal form rifling.  "Hawkeye, Victor3 noticed my error of not double checking the polygon shape to make sure it had SIX and not EIGHT sides! I've seen quite a few references to this form as being "easy to cut" or easy to make.  The artillery version would be lots of things, but "easy to make" ain't one of them.  It's mechanically fitted projectiles were really good at scaring horses on the battle field due to their unique "warbling sound" and this type of rifling in the 12 Pounder Whitworth cannon was particularly good at keeping the Federal Blockade enforcing ships more than 3 miles off the North Carolina coast around the Cape Fear River mouth, because of it's accuracy, but "easy to make", No.

When I find a good image of 6 sided, hexagonal, Whitworth rifling, I will post it.Tracy




Well known Henry rifling from Scotland.




Metford rifling from England used in millions of rifles with the Enfield moniker.




From Vicksburg, Mississippi we have the famous "Widow Blakely" muzzle showing it's unique, Blakely Hook-Slant rifling.




Finally the Scott form of rifling, so widely copied in modified form.  This one was complete with flanged bolts and shells normally.





 

[Double D]

 

Metford rifling from England used in millions of rifles with the Enfield moniker.

This is Metford rifling.



This is Enfield rifling.



The rifling on the 7" Brooke also looks like ratchet rifling to me...but I can't find my reference to sure.

[Cannon Cocker]

A lot of interesting info on rifling written during the CW period here. http://books.google.com/books?id=DBY5opvFChQC&pg=PA465&lpg=PA465&dq=shunt+rifling+scott+rifling&source=bl&ots=WZCXgc3TAn&sig=ByvwhsNSq2SUIMcPRzOiCByxjZ8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SGfOT-LoHuOA2wW7zb3FDA&ved=0COkDEOgBMAE#v=onepage&q=shunt%20rifling%20scott%20rifling&f=false

[seacoastartillery]

       Thanks for that clarification DD.  If this guy's site didn't have the neat pic of the 4 bore rifling, it would be about worthless.  From the U.K historical society we did learn that per their official Metford and Enfield documents, the large radius groove and very small lands were to facilitate cleaning the BP fouling out of the Metford-Martinis and the early, up until 1895 BP Long Lee Metford rifles.  The introduction of cordite smokeless powder made this form of rifling unnecessary and a shift to the Enfield type rifling was effected.  Maybe we should look more carefully at the Metford style rifling.  We are, after all, shooting BP.
 
 

 
 
 The rifling on the 7" Brooke also looks like ratchet rifling to me...but I can't find my reference to sure.     

 
 
       You really had me startled for quite a while there Double D.  Although it is difficult to see through all the layers of paint, the naval rifle pictured is really a Brooke which has a modified type of Hook-Slant, not "Ratchet" rifling.  It is unique and unlike Blakely rifling, the entire land is bore size and only the hook or groove is slanted.  The grooves and the lands are of equal width.  In the Blakely type rifling, the land is very small, little more than the intersection of a  groove's shallow slant with the next groove's steep side at bore diameter.  If you can call any of the forms "ratchet", the Blakely rifling is the one most appropriately labeled with that moniker.  Hook-Slant is much preferred, however.
 
      Mike and I have studied the Brooke Seacoast and Navy rifles at the Washington Navy yard quite a bit and the others there as well, like the 7" Blakely 100 pounder taken from the Confederate Raider CSS Florida.  Through a comparison of the signage AND the outdoor museum mounts or plinths, Mike and I have determined that the two mistakes the website owner made on this one (the front view of a Brooke 6.4" Double Banded Navy rifle, one of three to be found in that display at the Navy Yard) are the bore size of 7" instead of 6.4" (the only 7" Brooke Double-Banded Navy rifle present has a much larger muzzle face to tube radius than any of the 6.4" Brookes there). Also there is the CSS Florida reference.  The Brooke rifle shown in that photo came from the CSS Tennessee after the Naval Battle of Mobile Bay in 1864. And finally we found, in our old chemical pics, a photo of the 7" Blakely Navy rifle at the Navy Yard which actually did serve on the Confederate Raider, CSS Florida.  The plinth supporting this gun is totally different from those used to support the Brookes.
 
 This website certainly helps to sort out the various Brooke rifles:   http://www.csnavy.org/weapons/cannons.htm   
 
 
      Thanks Double D., your concern started me on a 3 hour research rant and we pretty much proved my rifling picture and rifling drawing  website to be almost total crap!  Note to self, "Don't do this stuff at midnight any more!"  I checked all my chemical pics and the linked website photos with the Surviving Artillery of the Civil War list and everything cross-checks O.K.

Tracy                   

P.S.   You're right, Cannon Cocker, that is an excellent book for those interested in the details of artillery development and testing of ordnance.  We have both volumes and think the sections on testing are interesting.  We remember one test in which a very large rifle projectile flew through the 25 or 50 yard target with it's axis of rotation perpendicular to the canon's bore axis, but straightened out at 300 or 400 yards and had better than ave. accuracy at 1,200!