Author Topic: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals  (Read 3490 times)

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Offline RHarper

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Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« on: April 27, 2012, 12:04:31 PM »
I have a TC Impact that is really accurate with a fouled bore and terrible with a clean bore.  I have tried fouling it with primers to no avail.  I have come to the conclussion that I will have to shoot a foul shot before hunting with it.  I don't want to be cleaning it every night and shooting it at 0 dark thirty every morning and waking every body up.  Blackhorn 209 is suppose to be less corrosive than the others but I'm still nervious about leaving it uncleaned.  Does anybody have any experience leaving it fouled for any period of time (say a week) before cleaning it?
 
Bob

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 06:21:18 PM »
remove breech plug and run 3 to 4 dry patches down the breech end of the barrel. It removed about 90 + % of the fouling.

Offline BIG Dog454

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 05:36:10 AM »
I have left my SS acura for 6 weeks before cleaning after firing BH209 just to see if I would get corrosion.  It cleaned as if I had just fired it that day,  NO Corrosion at all. 
BD


Offline RHarper

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 09:34:39 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.  Bigblock if it ever stops raining and/or blowing here I'll give the dry patches a try.  Big Dog your experience makes me feel a little more confortable but I don't have a ss barrel and am not sure the results would be the same for me with a regular steel barrel.
 
Bob

Offline anweis

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 07:28:33 AM »
I have a regular steel barrel and shoot only BH 209. There is no corrosion after 4-6 weeks. I fired my sighting and fouling shots around December 1st, i shot a deer in mid-December, and i cleaned in January: easy to clean powder residue, no rust. If you prepare the rifle just before hunting season, there is nothing to worry about for a few weeks.
And, do not clean between shots, no need. Actually my rifle shoots best with BH 209 without any cleaning between shots.

Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 09:53:52 AM »
If a powder has any corrosive components in it I cannot go without cleaning my gun not even for a day, but that's just me.

Offline martineta

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 08:28:24 AM »
Blackhorn 209 is non corrosive period!  I use my encore like my benelli SBE duck gun.  I wipe off the outside of the rifle after each use and clean the bore at the end of the season before I put it away.  Been using Blackhorn since it became available 3-4 years ago in VA.  Great substitute for and so happy I don't have to fool around with Pyrodex anymore.
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Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:52 AM »
Do some research some guns are rusting, western powders even backed off the non corrosive claim. Blackhorn 209 is a slow burning smokeless powder like AC8700 that's dusted with a fine black powder to help it ignite and keep it burning under low pressure.

Offline RHarper

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 11:25:20 AM »
Problem solved!!
 
I did some searches on the forum (something I should have done before) and found some info that indeed solved my problem.  A couple folks said that even with a couple dry patches and a primer fouling that some guns still retained enough oil residue to cause the first shot to shoot well out of the group which is exactly what mine was doing.  They recomended a couple dry patchs to get most of the oil out and then to run a couple well soaked alcohol patches then a couple more dry patches followed by a couple primers.  Worked like a champ!  Apparently  there was enough oil residue left in the bore to cause the sabots to skid a little and not completely stabilize the bullet.  All I no for sure is that it worked.  The primer fouled barrel still has a little higher velocity than the truely fouled shots but not enough to take it out of the group.
 
Thanks for all your inputs.
 
Bob

Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 01:23:01 PM »
Oil is the worse thing for accuracy to have in the bore for blackhorn 209 or a smokeless muzzleloader I had a couple of savage 10ml2s and I have an H&R 45 cal smokeless conversion and it plays hell with that type of powder. I use my home brew or Butches BP bore shine so I don't have any oil left in my barrels.

Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 02:50:33 AM »
Forget everything you have learned about muzzleloaders, when you use blackhorn. Blackhorn is a nitrocelulose base powder, (modern smokeless) it's no more corrosive than a centerfire or shotgun.  :) Forget what I've said, Blackhorn will rust your whole gun, don't use it it's junk. There now i'm just like the others who have never really tested it.

Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 02:58:34 AM »
In a stainless gun you probably wont have any problems rusting but a blued gun you probably will in time.

Offline Busta

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2012, 12:46:50 AM »
Forget everything you have learned about muzzleloaders, when you use blackhorn. Blackhorn is a nitrocelulose base powder, (modern smokeless) it's no more corrosive than a centerfire or shotgun.  :)

Not true! There is sulpher in Blackhorn 209, and the fouling residue can and will trap moisture, causing corrosion under certain conditions. If you don't get a good burn from either poor ignition or leaky primer pocket, even more so. Humidity will also play a big roll.
 
If you don't believe me, you can read the MSDS on Western's web site.
 
I have witnessed some premium stainless steel barrels that rusted from BH209 residue being left in them. These were muzzleloaders that no other powder was ever shot in. I use BH209 pretty much exclusively these days, but if you shoot them, you need to clean them. If you don't, you take your chances with whatever happens. Sure, you might get away with no problems some of the time (if conditions are perfect), but I guarantee you will not be so lucky, all of the time. A couple of these rifles were left uncleaned for less than a week. I have also seen what I would call etching in the bore after just a few (4) days.
 
I love Blackhorn 209, but if you love your muzzleloaders, clean them after shooting.
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Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2012, 02:42:09 AM »
Exactly that's why I clean my muzzleloaders every day even with BH209.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 05:33:07 AM »
i believe the rust issues with BH209 when left in storage uncleaned is due to the Hot barrel/cool room temp causing sweat. If you check out the bore when you are shooting, its an almost oily fouling and that fouling is what traps the moisture and causes rust.  The best thing to do is simply run a few Dry patches down the bore if you're not going to clean it within a reasonable amount of time.

Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2012, 05:44:17 AM »
Forget everything you have learned about muzzleloaders, when you use blackhorn. Blackhorn is a nitrocelulose base powder, (modern smokeless) it's no more corrosive than a centerfire or shotgun.  :)

Not true! There is sulpher in Blackhorn 209, and the fouling residue can and will trap moisture, causing corrosion under certain conditions. If you don't get a good burn from either poor ignition or leaky primer pocket, even more so. Humidity will also play a big roll.
 
If you don't believe me, you can read the MSDS on Western's web site.
 
I have witnessed some premium stainless steel barrels that rusted from BH209 residue being left in them. These were muzzleloaders that no other powder was ever shot in. I use BH209 pretty much exclusively these days, but if you shoot them, you need to clean them. If you don't, you take your chances with whatever happens. Sure, you might get away with no problems some of the time (if conditions are perfect), but I guarantee you will not be so lucky, all of the time. A couple of these rifles were left uncleaned for less than a week. I have also seen what I would call etching in the bore after just a few (4) days.
 
I love Blackhorn 209, but if you love your muzzleloaders, clean them after shooting.
Not true, or you really don't know. I've done all the tests, I know. Some people just like to debate. Their are other reasons why barrels rust, but it's not that powder. Most people just repete what the've heard as truth.

Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2012, 05:55:53 AM »
You need to talk to people that have really tried it. Then you will get the right answers. ;) Ask the person dogging, if they use it. ;)

Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2012, 07:18:08 AM »
I have tried it many times burned up several jugs of it and I have not had any rust issues because I clean my gun thoroughly after ever time out with that powder and I read the original patent application and am smart enough to know it has corrosive ingredients in it and not dumb enough not to clean my gun afterwards. I could care less what anybody else does with their guns but I will make a mental note not to buy a used muzzleloader from anyone that advocates you don't have to clean your gun after shooting bh209.

Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2012, 08:43:51 AM »
I have tried it many times burned up several jugs of it and I have not had any rust issues because I clean my gun thoroughly after ever time out with that powder and I read the original patent application and am smart enough to know it has corrosive ingredients in it and not dumb enough not to clean my gun afterwards. I could care less what anybody else does with their guns but I will make a mental note not to buy a used muzzleloader from anyone that advocates you don't have to clean your gun after shooting bh209.
Yup you guys "know" it all. I'm the stupid one. I'm not dumb though, cause I can talk.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2012, 08:58:03 AM »
humidity where you live is going to play a big part in this as well. Not a whole lot of it in CO so i haven't had an issue leaving my rifle dirty for a few weeks, I still clean it though since my guns are my babies no matter how low cost they were  ;D

Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2012, 09:03:48 AM »
It's odd that all the people that have positive results and feedback with blackhorn are wrong. ::)

Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2012, 09:14:32 AM »
I have positive feedback that's all I use in all my non smokeless inlines, no swabbing between shots powerful and accurate, I'm very happy with it.   

Offline Busta

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2012, 02:59:17 AM »
 
Forget everything you have learned about muzzleloaders, when you use blackhorn. Blackhorn is a nitrocelulose base powder, (modern smokeless) it's no more corrosive than a centerfire or shotgun.  :) Forget what I've said, Blackhorn will rust your whole gun, don't use it it's junk. There now i'm just like the others who have never really tested it.

Forget everything you have learned about muzzleloaders, when you use blackhorn. Blackhorn is a nitrocelulose base powder, (modern smokeless) it's no more corrosive than a centerfire or shotgun.  :)

Not true! There is sulpher in Blackhorn 209, and the fouling residue can and will trap moisture, causing corrosion under certain conditions. If you don't get a good burn from either poor ignition or leaky primer pocket, even more so. Humidity will also play a big roll.
 
If you don't believe me, you can read the MSDS on Western's web site.
 
I have witnessed some premium stainless steel barrels that rusted from BH209 residue being left in them. These were muzzleloaders that no other powder was ever shot in. I use BH209 pretty much exclusively these days, but if you shoot them, you need to clean them. If you don't, you take your chances with whatever happens. Sure, you might get away with no problems some of the time (if conditions are perfect), but I guarantee you will not be so lucky, all of the time. A couple of these rifles were left uncleaned for less than a week. I have also seen what I would call etching in the bore after just a few (4) days.
 
I love Blackhorn 209, but if you love your muzzleloaders, clean them after shooting.
Not true, or you really don't know. I've done all the tests, I know. Some people just like to debate. Their are other reasons why barrels rust, but it's not that powder. Most people just repete what the've heard as truth.

You need to talk to people that have really tried it. Then you will get the right answers. ;) Ask the person dogging, if they use it. ;)

I have tried it many times burned up several jugs of it and I have not had any rust issues because I clean my gun thoroughly after ever time out with that powder and I read the original patent application and am smart enough to know it has corrosive ingredients in it and not dumb enough not to clean my gun afterwards. I could care less what anybody else does with their guns but I will make a mental note not to buy a used muzzleloader from anyone that advocates you don't have to clean your gun after shooting bh209.
Yup you guys "know" it all. I'm the stupid one. I'm not dumb though, cause I can talk.

It's odd that all the people that have positive results and feedback with blackhorn are wrong. ::)

Sorry I ruffled your feathers, but what you said, and now changed (added to) in your first post is just WRONG!
 
Let me give you a little background of my experience with Blackhorn 209. I was the first person in Michigan to own a case of this powder when it became available, way before any retailers. I have shot several cases of the stuff, through no less than 15 different types of rifles, pistols, and shotguns for 4+ years. This would also include 40+ different breech plugs, from OEM, modified OEM, and several custom breech plugs , some that I helped develop. I have tested it from one end of the spectrum to the other, and beyond.
 
You won't find a bigger proponent of Blackhorn 209, than me. But, you won't see me making the statement that you made in your original post.
 
I have nothing but positive experiences with Blackhorn 209, because I have tested it thoroughly, know it's limits, and requirements. A simple search of this site or others will back up my claims.
 
You made a "blanket statement", there is no absolute when dealing with several types, styles, and brands of muzzleloaders. While one guy, with one rifle, in one climate, may get away with not cleaning his muzzleloader, in no way will everyone.
 
How many cases, or should I say jugs of Blackhorn 209 have you shot? And, through how many rifles?
 
And you are right about one thing, people do like to debate, even when they are WRONG!
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Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2012, 08:14:42 AM »

Forget everything you have learned about muzzleloaders, when you use blackhorn. Blackhorn is a nitrocelulose base powder, (modern smokeless) it's no more corrosive than a centerfire or shotgun.  :) Forget what I've said, Blackhorn will rust your whole gun, don't use it it's junk. There now i'm just like the others who have never really tested it.

Forget everything you have learned about muzzleloaders, when you use blackhorn. Blackhorn is a nitrocelulose base powder, (modern smokeless) it's no more corrosive than a centerfire or shotgun.  :)

Not true! There is sulpher in Blackhorn 209, and the fouling residue can and will trap moisture, causing corrosion under certain conditions. If you don't get a good burn from either poor ignition or leaky primer pocket, even more so. Humidity will also play a big roll.
 
If you don't believe me, you can read the MSDS on Western's web site.
 
I have witnessed some premium stainless steel barrels that rusted from BH209 residue being left in them. These were muzzleloaders that no other powder was ever shot in. I use BH209 pretty much exclusively these days, but if you shoot them, you need to clean them. If you don't, you take your chances with whatever happens. Sure, you might get away with no problems some of the time (if conditions are perfect), but I guarantee you will not be so lucky, all of the time. A couple of these rifles were left uncleaned for less than a week. I have also seen what I would call etching in the bore after just a few (4) days.
 
I love Blackhorn 209, but if you love your muzzleloaders, clean them after shooting.
Not true, or you really don't know. I've done all the tests, I know. Some people just like to debate. Their are other reasons why barrels rust, but it's not that powder. Most people just repete what the've heard as truth.

You need to talk to people that have really tried it. Then you will get the right answers. ;) Ask the person dogging, if they use it. ;)

I have tried it many times burned up several jugs of it and I have not had any rust issues because I clean my gun thoroughly after ever time out with that powder and I read the original patent application and am smart enough to know it has corrosive ingredients in it and not dumb enough not to clean my gun afterwards. I could care less what anybody else does with their guns but I will make a mental note not to buy a used muzzleloader from anyone that advocates you don't have to clean your gun after shooting bh209.
Yup you guys "know" it all. I'm the stupid one. I'm not dumb though, cause I can talk.

It's odd that all the people that have positive results and feedback with blackhorn are wrong. ::)

Sorry I ruffled your feathers, but what you said, and now changed (added to) in your first post is just WRONG!
 
Let me give you a little background of my experience with Blackhorn 209. I was the first person in Michigan to own a case of this powder when it became available, way before any retailers. I have shot several cases of the stuff, through no less than 15 different types of rifles, pistols, and shotguns for 4+ years. This would also include 40+ different breech plugs, from OEM, modified OEM, and several custom breech plugs , some that I helped develop. I have tested it from one end of the spectrum to the other, and beyond.
 
You won't find a bigger proponent of Blackhorn 209, than me. But, you won't see me making the statement that you made in your original post.
 
I have nothing but positive experiences with Blackhorn 209, because I have tested it thoroughly, know it's limits, and requirements. A simple search of this site or others will back up my claims.
 
You made a "blanket statement", there is no absolute when dealing with several types, styles, and brands of muzzleloaders. While one guy, with one rifle, in one climate, may get away with not cleaning his muzzleloader, in no way will everyone.
 
How many cases, or should I say jugs of Blackhorn 209 have you shot? And, through how many rifles?
 
And you are right about one thing, people do like to debate, even when they are WRONG!
You must be right your the one barking the loudest, all my testing must be wrong. Sorry my results must be completely false. Thanks for not being a jerk about it. ::)

Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2012, 08:16:47 AM »
 ;)

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2012, 08:46:34 AM »
Let the anger cool down boys, No reason to get into a fist fight over something as dumb as this  :o

Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2012, 11:16:01 AM »
Deep breath, ;D bigblock455, you are right, sorry all. :-[

Offline muznut 54

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2012, 12:55:50 AM »
How did one post go from a threat to a smiley wink?

Offline Busta

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2012, 03:27:43 AM »
You must be right your the one barking the loudest, all my testing must be wrong. Sorry my results must be completely false. Thanks for not being a jerk about it. ::)

You're welcome!
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Offline r29l20

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Re: Opinions on Blackhorn 209 cleaning intervals
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2012, 04:15:37 PM »
How did one post go from a threat to a smiley wink?
Threat ?