Author Topic: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!  (Read 5943 times)

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Offline KIMBER45

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Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« on: May 01, 2012, 01:30:38 AM »
  •    Man freed on DNA evidence after 15 years in jail - CNN A man who was released from prison after 15 years because DNA evidence did not prove his guilt said ... Innocent man shares his 20-year struggle behind bars ...articles.cnn.com/2002-02-15/justice/dna.prison.release_1... - Cached
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Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 01:48:15 AM »
I think the bigger issue is that a lot of guys end up on death row that shouldnt be ther. They get poor representation on inflated charges. It's not like Perry Mason out there. The deathmpenaltynis used too casually many times.

Offline Shu

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 02:15:26 AM »
Ted Bundy-serial murder 20+ known victims
John Wayne Gacy-serial murder 10 + known victims
Jeffery Dahlmer- serial murder 10 + known victims
With a little effort I can find many  more serial killers, serial rapists and pedophiles than you can find innocent in jail. Even though the system has it's flaws, it's still the best one out there.
Perhaps a better system of checks and balances instead of abolishing the death penalty.
 
Kimber you are showing men wrongfully convicted and set free later. Not executed.
 

Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 02:23:02 AM »
Ted Bundy-serial murder 20  known victims
John Wayne Gacy-serial murder 10   known victims
Jeffery Dahlmer- serial murder 10   known victims
With a little effort I can find many  more serial killers, serial rapists and pedophiles than you can find innocent in jail. Even though the system has it's flaws, it's still the best one out there.
Perhaps a better system of checks and balances instead of abolishing the death penalty.
 
Kimber you are showing men wrongfully convicted and set free later. Not executed.
Yes, but if they were executed- they no longer could be set free. It is an example showing innocent men are convicted and Yes - executed. ----They once tried to free an executed person, but for some reason he refused to leave .
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
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Offline magooch

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 02:58:45 AM »
It really shouldn't be that hard to fix laws so that the death penalty could only be applied in cases where there is absolutely no doubt.  Realizing that nothing related to the application of law is perfect, I suppose there would still be mistakes, but there are some really dreadful cases where the perps need to be terminated.
 
 If I were to design the system, the death penalty would not be reserved for homocide.  It would include all types of criminals; thieves, lying politicians, tresspassers, arsonists, and those who engage in mopery on the king's highway.
Swingem

Offline Savage .250

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 03:17:53 AM »
It`s not like anyone convicted of a crime where the death penalty is handed down is killed on the spot. Far from it.   Seems like appeals go on for ever.  With good lawyers or bad.
 That being said, it kind of makes the case for fairness and complete-ness. As well it should be.   
  Mistakes are made every day that cost people their lives and they don`t have a judge or jury to listen to or weight the facts .  Those folks get no appeals.  J s/n.
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Offline Savage_99

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 04:42:37 AM »
"Judge denies Joshua Komisarjevsky offer to plead guilty in exchange for no death penalty."

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2011/03/24/news/metro/aa3_nekom032311.txt


This scum said he was innocent after he raped a mother and her daughter, tied them to beds and set their house on fire where they burned to death!


Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 06:11:22 AM »
Hmmm..............looked at the case presented above. None of them were facing the death penalty.

Topic title is a red herring.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

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Offline powderman

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 08:29:37 AM »
Hmmm..............looked at the case presented above. None of them were facing the death penalty.

Topic title is a red herring.

 
YEP. The death penalty may be flawed, but it is final. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline rockbilly

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 09:06:10 AM »
I have mixed emotions about the death penalty, I’m all for it in cases that can be proven with SOLID evidence that the perpetrator is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  None of the cited cases in the initial post were death penalty cases, but I’m sure there have been those that cost an innocent man his life.  In Texas alone 32 people were set free with-in the past year as a result of new evidence that proved them innocent.

I attribute the problem here with over zealous police investigators and prosecutors.  In high profile or particular heinous crimes, as demanded by the public, they are quick to accuse and often do not have all the facts/evidence to support their case, but press for a conviction anyway.  How many DAs and/or police have fabricated and/or hid evidence from the defense?  The current DA of Travis County (Austin, TX)  has brought charges against the former DA for suppressing evidence that would have sent a man to his death, the man spent eighteen years on death row. He was just a few steps from the death penalty when evidence was found to prove him totally innocent of the crime, he had already lost several appeals and was down to the last straw when the truth came out that set him free.  I am confidant that innocent men have been put to death. 

Sadly, there is no fool proof method of preventing this from happening again, for this reason I think the death penalty should be approached with caution.

There are some exceptions, like the three time convicted sex offender (we don’t know how many as a juvenile but there were several) that recently raped and beat a local 87 year old women.  This happened while released on probation pending a hearing on another sex offense against a child.  A GPS ankle bracelet put him at the house at the time of the crime, there were also several eye witnesses who saw him there.  For this puke, I have a 90 foot Cottonwood tree and a long nylon rope, just get it over>   
 

Offline powderman

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2012, 09:36:35 AM »
ROCKBILLY. No doubt that innocent men have been executed, but no doubt either that murders are committed all the time by convicted murderers put back on the streets by libby judges and unscrupulous lawyers. I've always believed that ALL evidence should be presented to the jury, let them decide what is pertinent and true and what is not. A prejudiced judge can suppress what he knows will sway a case one way or the other. Thats what juries are for and that decision should not be given to one person.
When there is positively no doubt, execute within 30 days. Appeals should not take more than a year with attys assigned to investigate fully and dna used. Is this foolproof?? NOPE, but better than waiting 30 years to see justice done. Why is manson still alive?? Or any of the others who are proud of their work?? A lot of money wasted on some of these scum that could be used to actually benefit mankind. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2012, 09:43:05 AM »
Hmmm..............looked at the case presented above. None of them were facing the death penalty.

Topic title is a red herring.
I never said they were- just giving examples on how wrongly convicted persons could be killed. I'm surprised you couldn't connect the dots. I prefer Halibut. ;D ;D
 
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2012, 10:21:09 AM »

I never said they were- just giving examples on how wrongly convicted persons could be killed. I'm surprised you couldn't connect the dots. I prefer Halibut. ;D ;D

Hmmm.........used non capital case to illustrate your point? Gotta wonder why you didn't use death penalty cases.

Actually, with the availability of DNA evidence and the improvement in forensics in general, the death penalty makes more sense than ever!
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2012, 11:19:16 AM »

I never said they were- just giving examples on how wrongly convicted persons could be killed. I'm surprised you couldn't connect the dots. I prefer Halibut. ;D ;D

Hmmm.........used non capital case to illustrate your point? Gotta wonder why you didn't use death penalty cases.

Actually, with the availability of DNA evidence and the improvement in forensics in general, the death penalty makes more sense than ever!
I used non capital case because using CAPITAL CASE is considered SHOUTING and rude.
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
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Offline powderman

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2012, 11:32:11 AM »
Quote
I used non capital case because using CAPITAL CASE is considered SHOUTING and rude.

 
HEH. UHHHHH, nope, aint gonna say it. Go ahead Cuts. POWDERMAN.  ;) ;)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2012, 12:03:14 PM »
Quote
I used non capital case because using CAPITAL CASE is considered SHOUTING and rude.

 
HEH. UHHHHH, nope, aint gonna say it. Go ahead Cuts. POWDERMAN.  ;) ;)


Nah!!! Let him dangle fer a while! ::)
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Shu

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2012, 01:08:20 PM »
Death penalty should be applied when there is absolutely no doubt. I am not willing an innocent man be sent to jail or executed. I simply do not want to support serial killers, rapists and pedophiles for 50 years in the penetentiary. 
 
With forensic evidence being what it is today gettting the right guy is much better than say 20 years ago.
 
Normally when the wrongly convicted is released from prison there is a huge cash settlement for the wrongful conviction. That doesn't make it all better and perfect but 20 million covers alot of agony.
 
Using non death row convictions to support the abolishment of the death penalty, really? What does a non death penalty case have to do with the death penalty? With the appeals process etc it still takes many years to actually execute someone.
 
With the appeals process it took 10 years to execute Ted Bundy who by the way had a killing spree across the US and took law enforcement officials to 30 + grave sites and told law enforcement about murders he committed they didn't know about.
Jeffery Dahlmer was found with 17 victims in his refrigerator and freezer. His fellow inmates killed him.
No death penalty for these guys?
Would it be better to plea bargain them out? Drop that murder charge to brandishing a firearm and let them go with a fine.
 

Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 01:54:01 PM »
Quote
I used non capital case because using CAPITAL CASE is considered SHOUTING and rude.

 
HEH. UHHHHH, nope, aint gonna say it. Go ahead Cuts. POWDERMAN.  ;) ;)


Nah!!! Let him dangle fer a while! ::)
Funny, that's the same comment my urologist said to his nurse when I went in for my checkup.
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
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Offline Casull

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2012, 02:18:25 PM »
Quote
Hmmm.........used non capital case to illustrate your point? Gotta wonder why you didn't use death penalty cases.

 
 
Cuts Crooked gets the seegar for that one.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 02:31:05 PM »
  Some folks even try to claim the death penalty is NOT a deterrent.  That argument is specious at best and can easily be disproven..
  Of all the murderers executed in the state of Texas..NOT ONE of them has murdered again !
 
        NOW, THAT'S REAL DETERRENCE !!
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Hooker

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2012, 03:03:09 PM »
I'm in favor of increasing the death penalty. Anyone who's combined sentence is more than 20 years gets to ride the thunder bolt.
But I'm also for reality sentences everyday of it at hard labor with only basic human rights and no chance of parole.
Attaching a sentence price to each crime we allow the criminal to choose his or her own penalty.
A system like that will fix your death penalty problem less crime equals less criminals that need to put to sleep. Making it less likely to fry one of the un guilty.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
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Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2012, 03:26:20 PM »
Hmmm..............looked at the case presented above. None of them were facing the death penalty.

Topic title is a red herring.
Here you go-http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence  Death Penalty and Innocence | Amnesty International USA Since 1973, 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. Learn more about the Death Penalty and ...www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us... - Cached
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
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Offline Casull

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2012, 04:03:19 PM »
Quote
Here you go-http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence  Death Penalty and Innocence | Amnesty International USA Since 1973, 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. Learn more about the Death Penalty and ...www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us... - Cached
          Well, that would seem to indicate that the system IS working. 
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Offline KIMBER45

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2012, 04:09:50 PM »
Quote
Here you go-http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence  Death Penalty and Innocence | Amnesty International USA Since 1973, 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. Learn more about the Death Penalty and ...www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us... - Cached
          Well, that would seem to indicate that the system IS working.
http://www.alternet.org/story/142318/texas_executed_an_innocent_man/
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
-------

-------

Offline scootrd

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2012, 04:54:58 PM »
It`s not like anyone convicted of a crime where the death penalty is handed down is killed on the spot. Far from it.   Seems like appeals go on for ever.  With good lawyers or bad.
 That being said, it kind of makes the case for fairness and complete-ness. As well it should be.   
  Mistakes are made every day that cost people their lives and they don`t have a judge or jury to listen to or weight the facts .  Those folks get no appeals.  J s/n.

For me the problem lies when on appeals they don't allow ALL new evidence in that may exonerate .
Our justice system , particularly Prosecutors has become more about winning and their own personal pride of not admitting they may have got it wrong first time round. They would rather see someone who based on new technology like DNA etc..
that may be proven innocent not allowed to introduce then actually seeking JUSTICE . It's more about winning.

I am actually against death penalty but not for reasons others may think.

I am against it because I think life without parole for convicted murderers in maximum solitary is a much more harsher punishment than death , and if a mistake is made there is always an opportunity to right a wronged person if errors are indeed made.
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Offline Hooker

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2012, 05:11:37 PM »
I am against it because I think life without parole for convicted murderers in maximum solitary is a much more harsher punishment than death.

That's fine , but folks who want to keep this vermin locked up forever and a day should foot the bill.
As for me I'd rather make better use of my money and they make better fertilizer than they do caged pets.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
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Offline scootrd

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2012, 05:20:32 PM »
Quote
Hmmm.........used non capital case to illustrate your point? Gotta wonder why you didn't use death penalty cases.

 
 
Cuts Crooked gets the seegar for that one.


On April 8, 2002, Ray Krone was released from prison in Arizona after DNA evidence proved that he was not responsible for the 1991 murder of a Phoenix bartender.  Krone became the 100th person exonerated and released from death row since 1973. now that number has now since grown to over 130. 

Who knows how many other innocent persons may have never been allowed to introduce new evidence and had their appeals denied because of over zealot prosecutors or courts not wanting to admit they erred. 

"It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death."
 - Moses Maimonides

Genesis 18:20-32

20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Exodus 23:7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2012, 05:28:08 PM »
Being the husband of a Paralegal, having two of my best friends daughters as State Prosecutors, my son's best friend's father is the State District Attorney, and having served on Grand Juries and regular Juries I have seen our justice system at work.  As long as we have prosecutors who are only looking at their stats for promotion, and not caring whether the person on trial is guilty or not this will be a problem.  My wife's attitude was "If he was not guilty, he would not be here".  I had to laugh when her son was brought up on trumped up charges by a Cop that did not like Teenagers.  She suddenly had a change of heart.  Now she looks at trials differently.  Trials won or lost go into the record and that is what State Attorneys get promoted on.   
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline SwampThing762

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2012, 05:51:35 PM »
There is a reason why our legal system is staggered with multiple appeal opportunities, and why the ABA Canon Number Six REQUIRES the zealous representation of the client by their attorney.    The appeals process is designed to be drawn out to provide for comprehensive reviews of evidence and transcripts to determine errors and reasonable doubts.   

And like ironglow says, all executed murderers never killed again.   That speaks volumes......

ST762
We learned the true nature of Islam on 11 Sept 2001.

Show your appreciation for Islam....eat more bacon.

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Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 03:37:42 AM »
...and every time a death row resident is exhonerated is more proof that the system is working.
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"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME