Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!

[bluedog6]

While I do agree that the Gacy's, Dahmer's, and Bundy's should be put to death, but not at the risk of killing one innocent person.


 

Sorry you can't have it both ways. I know liberals want to have their cake and eat it too, but reality has a way of disappointing them time and time again.

I am far from a liberal. I am pro gun, anti abortion, and favor a strict immigration policy, and until about a year ago I was for the death penalty. I did a college paper and researched the subject and can no longer support it. There is no doubt that there are peple who are hopeless and need put to death, but we can not do this and risk killing an innocent person. Life sentences at least give the system time to right its wrongs.

[Cuts Crooked]

There is no doubt that there are peple who are hopeless and need put to death, but we can not do this and risk killing an innocent person. Life sentences at least give the system time to right its wrongs.

And it is obvious that the current system does indeed "give the system time to right it's wrongs"

Look, no human endeavour is ever perfect. For instance, if we go with life sentences then we have to support that sentence with food, clothing, medical care, and a other associated costs. Should we have to bear those for someone who has committed a horrifying crime? On the other hand there is always the small chance that an innocent will be put to death for a crime they didn't commit......that chance is exceedingly small though.

Most of us agree that the Jeffry Dahlmers of the world do not deserve to live but many would happily let him enjoy a lifetime of free meals, free clothing, free medical care...But it isn't free!!!!

I prefer to use the system we have, with all it's warts. So far it seems to working better than anything else humans have come up with.

[bluedog6]

That chance is small unless you or a family member are on death row, then it is a very big chance. An innocent U.S. citizen does not deserve to be killed, or be threatened with death. If the appeals process was shortened many would be killed prior to being found innocent. As a civilized country it is about more than money and the cost to house the inmate. We can never execute some one  because it is cheaper them housing them.
Great debate on the subject, and I am certainly glad to hear an opposing view. Thanks

[scootrd]

Most of us agree that the Jeffry Dahlmers of the world do not deserve to live but many would happily let him enjoy a lifetime of free meals, free clothing, free medical care...But it isn't free!!!!

Though your point is not missed ,

Dahmer is probably a poor example Because The court decided he was fit to live , and handed down a sentence of  guilty on 15 counts of murder and sentenced him to 15 life terms. It was while in general population Dahmer was killed by another inmate Christopher Scarver with a broomstick handle. Dahmer died of severe head trauma.

This is the weird part  - 

The district attorney who prosecuted Dahmer cautioned against turning Scarver into a folk hero, noting that Dahmer's death was still murder.

Hmmm and capital punishment isn't state sanctioned murder ?

I would like to see this thread intelligently debate that point ? 
what is the difference in some folks minds whether Scarver killed him , or the State.  I'm Sure that same DA had pushed for the death penalty during the trial.

[KIMBER45]

Quote from Kimber45:
"So if a person has a severe mental illness rendering him incapable of being responsible for his actions, he should be killed.


I bet you that several posts will come up to support that notion.
GuzziJohn

         You two might want to read up a bit before you point fingers for alleged abuses.  Being a sociopath does not constitute a mental illness that would preclude one from knowing right from wrong.  A sociopath knows the difference, but just doesn't care.  I would wager that most, if not all, serial killers are sociopaths.  But, maybe one of you would like to take them into your homes when parolled.

The post was-
Quote from Kimber45:
"So if a person has a severe mental illness rendering him incapable of being responsible for his actions, he should be killed.
GuzziJohn-- I bet you that several posts will come up to support that notion. 
NO mention of sociopath. You need to read closer and stop { leading the witness}.
And ,No need to take sociopaths into my home. There are enough here giving sarcastic answers to honest discussions.

[Casull]

Hmmm and capital punishment isn't state sanctioned murder ?

 
 
Clearly not.  But, I suppose you have to understand the law to understand that.  All killings are NOT murder.  That is why you can kill someone in self defense and not be charged with murder.  Murder is the UNJUSTIFIED killing of another with malice aforethought (evil intent).  Capital punishment is the JUSTIFIED killing of another after having been found guilty of a capital offense.  Does that help?

[Casull]

   

NO mention of sociopath. You need to read closer and stop { leading the witness}.

       Oh, please now.  You were responding to Scibaer or did you forget this:       

  Quote from: Scibaer on Today at 01:54:54 PM

i think we dont kill enough bad guy with the death sentance.
 i can site all sorts of data on the subject, but the bottom line is, there are some very sick type A

sociopaths out there that society needs to be free from. and our court system needs to get moving and get rid of on behalf of all concerned .

 

So if a person has a severe mental illness rendering him incapable of being responsible for his actions, he should be killed.

     At least own up to your posts.   

[KIMBER45]

   

NO mention of sociopath. You need to read closer and stop { leading the witness}.

       Oh, please now.  You were responding to Scibaer or did you forget this:       

  Quote from: Scibaer on Today at 01:54:54 PM

i think we dont kill enough bad guy with the death sentance.
 i can site all sorts of data on the subject, but the bottom line is, there are some very sick type A

sociopaths out there that society needs to be free from. and our court system needs to get moving and get rid of on behalf of all concerned .

 

So if a person has a severe mental illness rendering him incapable of being responsible for his actions, he should be killed.

     At least own up to your posts.   

Re: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !!« Reply #56 on: Today at 04:07:04 PM »

• Quote

Quote

Quote from Kimber45:
"So if a person has a severe mental illness rendering him incapable of being responsible for his actions, he should be killed.


I bet you that several posts will come up to support that notion. 
GuzziJohn

Nice try-No I was refering to this :         You two might want to read up a bit before you point fingers for alleged abuses.  Being a sociopath does not constitute a mental illness that would preclude one from knowing right from wrong.  A sociopath knows the difference, but just doesn't care.  I would wager that most, if not all, serial killers are sociopaths.  But, maybe one of you would like to take them into your homes when parolled.

[Casull]

Are you that disengenuous.  Scibaer posted about sociapaths.  YOU responded to HIS post by saying:
 

So if a person has a severe mental illness rendering him incapable of being responsible for his actions, he should be killed.

 
I then pointed out that serial killers are sociapaths.  So, when responding to Scibaer and his post about sociapaths were you truly not talking about sociapaths?

[Casull]

Oh, for Pete's sake, never mind.   

[KIMBER45]

I can't believe you didn't get it. I've noticed when you are frustrated you resort to sarcasm , name calling , and belittlement of the other person ; because in your mind you simply can never be wrong. Because of that I'm through dealing with your rubbish.

[KIMBER45]

What do some of you think of this_http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-mental-illnessDeath Penalty and Mental Illness
"He did a terrible thing, but he was sick. Where is the compassion?
   Is this the best our society can do?"

– Yvonne Panetti, mother of Scott Panetti, mentally ill man on death row in Texas
   (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, December 6, 2003)

   The execution of those with mental illness or "the insane" is clearly prohibited by international law. Virtually every country in the world prohibits the execution of people with mental illness.[International ResolutionsYearExcerpt   
 UN Safeguards Guaranteeing Protection of the Rights of Those Facing the Death Penalty         1984     
" ...nor shall the death sentence be carried out... on persons who have become insanetd]           
 UN Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions            1997           
 Governments that continue to use the death penalty "with respect to minors and the mentally ill are particularly called upon to bring their domestic legislation into conformity with international legal standardstd]         
 UN Commission on Human Rights[/t]            2000            Urges all states that maintain the death penalty "not to impose it on a person suffering from any form of mental disorder; not to execute any such person."

   The execution of the insane – someone who does not understand the reason for, or the reality of, his or her punishment - violates the U.S. Constitution (Ford v. Wainwright, 1986). The Ford decision left the determination of sanity up to each state. Constitutional protections for those with other forms of mental illness are minimal, however, and dozens of prisoners have been executed despite suffering from serious mental illness. The National Association of Mental Health has estimated that five to ten percent of those on death row have serious mental illness.
    Examples

• James Colburn had an extensive history of paranoid schizophrenia when he was arrested for murder. During his 1995 trial, Mr. Colburn received injections of Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug that can have a powerful sedative effect. A 1997 post-conviction assessment questioned Mr. Colburn's competency to stand trial at that time, finding he had been "seriously sedated during the time of his trial." He was executed March 26, 2003.
•             On January 6, 2004, the State of Arkansas executed Charles Singleton, who was said to be "seriously deranged without treatment" and "arguably incompetent with treatment." It was only during an episode of "drug-induced sanity" that the state scheduled his execution.
•             On May 18, 2004, Kelsey Patterson was executed in Texas although he was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 1981 and did not possess rational understanding at his trial.

   The State of Texas ranks 46th out of the 50 U.S. states in terms of the amount of money spent per capita in the treatment of the mentally ill, including funds for mental health services in jails and prisons (News 8 Austin, April 21, 2003). It spends an average of $2.3 million to try a death penalty case. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992).     
     

[Scibaer]

it was mentioned that , because an innocent person may be wrongly put to death, then there should be no death penality.
there are safe guards in place now , that ensure a certain level of protection to ensure just that. in part that is why persons on death row are there for so long before meeting justice.   having to show some level of understanding the legal system is another.
weeding out the mentally incapable from sociopaths, psychopaths and oppositional minded criminals and killers

[Cuts Crooked]

AS I noted earlier, no human endeavour is perfect. If you want perfect you have to become God.........or believe a liberal.

Regarding the insanity defense: I have long held that if someone commits a horrific act and is mentally ill, they should be executed, My reason for this is that if we are able to cure them and they can understand what they have done, they should want to die as atonement for what they did, otherwise they are either not cured, or they never were mentally ill to begin with. Keeping them alive would be cruel.

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Cuts Crooked:
"AS I noted earlier, no human endeavour is perfect."


Hard to come up with a better point than the above as a reason to abolish the death penalty.
GuzziJohn

[SHOOTALL]

OK why do we have the DP ? In todays world we can lock someone away for life so in reality it is for punishment or maybe payback ? Should we commit murder as a socity because someone in our socity commited murder ? Its not self defense at that point since we can lock them away ( a long punishment really worst than death for many) . I doubt killing one bad guy keeps another one from commiting a crime of murder. I think they should be locked away , fed a subsistance diet and let live out their lives with out any contact with the outside world .

[scootrd]

it was mentioned that , because an innocent person may be wrongly put to death, then there should be no death penality.
there are safe guards in place now , that ensure a certain level of protection to ensure just that. in part that is why persons on death row are there for so long before meeting justice.   having to show some level of understanding the legal system is another.
weeding out the mentally incapable from sociopaths, psychopaths and oppositional minded criminals and killers

Yes but what all continue to ignore is those supposedly "certain Safeguards" do not protect the accused during an appeals process with the right to introduce all new evidence. The courts can deny. and over zealot DA's wanting to protect their convictions (cause it's all about a winning record) go out of their way to not allow new evidence to be heard.
Case in point


 
1993    Herrera v. Collins    In the absence of other constitutional grounds, new evidence of innocence is no reason for federal court to order a new trial. New evidence was discovered that exonerated this death row inmate however Texas courts refused to allow it to be presented.

It went all the to supreme court and here was their idiotic ruling  - Rehnquist’s opinion held that Texas courts’ refusal to even consider Herrera’s newly discovered evidence did not violate due process and suggested that Herrera file a clemency petition with the Texas Board of Pardon and Paroles.

So the guy has newly discovered evidence that will exonerate him, he has already spent 10 years on death row yet is denied the opportunity to present and supreme court says no problem there. By the way the evidence was another person confessed to the murder in front of other witnesses.

It's not about Justice , it's now only about winning and courts , and prosecutors never , actually almost refuse  to admit they may have made a mistake . God forbid one of their convictions gets overturned and tarnishes their record.

[yellowtail3]

Mr scooted has it right, ESP the bit about prosecutors.

Let me put in a plug for The Innocence Project.... They're about doing God's work. Some would no doubt dismiss them as libby lawyers but they're doing Right, often in the face of resistance from crooked cops and prosecutors who'd rather Keep their 'win' than see the truth come out and the men they worked to convict freed
http://www.innocenceproject.org/

[scootrd]

Once a defendant has been found guilty at trial, the presumption of innocence is shed and replaced with a presumption of guilt. The appeals process is not directly concerned with whether the jury made a mistake in its verdict, but rather focuses on the procedures which were followed in the trial leading up to that verdict.Perhaps the bleakest fact of all is that the death penalty is imposed not only in a freakish and discriminatory manner, but also in some cases upon defendants who are actually innocent. -Justice William J. Brennan, Jr., 1994

Rolando Cruz, released after 10 years on Illinois's death row, despite the fact that another man had confessed to the crime shortly after his conviction

Ricardo Aldape Guerra, who returned to Mexico after 15 years on Texas's death row because of a prosecution that even a federal judge openly called outrageous,  and designed to simply achieve another notch on the prosecutor's guns.

Jay C. Smith, a former high school principal, was convicted of the 1979 murder of 3 people spent 6 years on death row, 13 years behind bars though his death sentence was later reduced to life. He was freed on Sept. 18, 1992 after the Pennsylvania Supreme Court unanimously ruled that the prosecution had withheld crucial evidence, calling the state's action "egregious" misconduct.

James Creamer was sentenced to death for a murder allegedly committed with six other individuals. After an investigation by the Atlanta Constitution, a federal judge declared that the prosecution had withheld and destroyed evidence, a witness admitted she had lied in court, and another man confessed to the crimes. The convictions against all seven men were overturned, and charges were later dropped.

Dale Johnston was sentenced to death for the murder of his stepdaughter and her fiancee. His conviction was overturned in 1988 by the Ohio Supreme Court because the prosecution withheld exculpatory evidence from the defense, and because one witness had been hypnotized. The state later dropped charges against Johnston.
his conviction was overturned in 1988 after 6 years yet he was not released until 1990.

This one really gets my goat

Joseph Burrows Illinois  Conviction 1989 Released 1994 No physical evidence linked Burrows to the murder of William Dulin. The prosecution's two chief witnesses recanted their testimony against Mr. Burrows, and one of them confessed to the murder for which Burrows had been sent to death row. One of the witnesses said he had been coerced by prosecutors and police. Burrows was released in September, 1994 after serving 5 years, and the Illinois appellate courts have upheld the overturning of his conviction.
The Guy was released but the prosecutor didn't like losing and even knowing another confessed still tried to convict him again. The appellate courts had to uphold the overturning of his conviction.

I could go on and on .... but wont.

[Cuts Crooked]

Quote from Cuts Crooked:
"AS I noted earlier, no human endeavour is perfect."


Hard to come up with a better point than the above as a reason to abolish the death penalty.
GuzziJohn

By the same logic, hard to come up with a better point than the above as a reason to retain the death penalty.

Life  in prison for an innocent could be considered extrodinarily cruel. Death penalty is quick so the suffering is over quick? (actually not, they drag it out forever which is also cruel)

Not perfect! A good chance that a convicted savage might end up released to prey on  innocents yet again with "Life" sentences.

[yellowtail3]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/30/11466476-new-dna-testing-frees-convicted-colorado-rapist-killer?lite


What is most unusual about this is that the prosecutor cooperated... Usually they drag feet, stonewall, and sometimes - as scooters pointed out- they try to re-convict the exonerated.


Perhaps we need to hang a few prosecutors who cheated, and cops who forced confessions and fabricated 'evidence'?... Or we could just lock them up, just in case it turns out they didn't really do it.

[rockbilly]

For years we have heard the expression, “It’s better to let a dozen guilty men walk than to convict one innocent man.”

Many may disagree with that comment, but put yourself in the accused innocent person’s position and you would likely change your mind.  I have been there and speak from experience.

It was only a traffic charge but it played out like this:

In 1964 while station at Warner Robbins AFB, GA.  I had been to the VFW one night\; I left about 1130 and stopped at a local all night diner for a cup of coffee and a bite to eat.  Several friends came in; we ate then set around drinking coffee and talking.  About 2:30 a local cop came in and asked “Who is driving the tan Buick parked out front?”  I answered, “I am.” He came over slapped me against the wall, put the cuffs on and told me I was under arrest for drag racing.  I was taken to jail.

One of the friends at the table contacted my First Sergeant and informed him of the arrest; he came and got me out of jail.  He found the name of the individual I was supposed to be racing with and talked to him, the guy admitted it was not me and that the car he was racing was a yellow and black Dodge Charger.  Our Wing Commander had a policy of a one stripe reduction for any moving traffic violation. To prevent loosing a stripe I refused to plead guilt and ask for a court trail.  I needed a lawyer, I looked in the phone book, there were two available in Warner Robbins, I selected one, and my First Sergeant went with me to talk to him.  Immediately he told me he could get me off with no conviction for $1000.  and that it would cost me $500. for his service.  I didn’t have the money so I elected to represent myself (a fool for a client). 

Court was held at night in the High School cafeteria, I was floored when I walked into the room and found that the same attorney that I had talked to about taking my case was the city attorney.

I had seven people swear that I was drinking coffee at the time the incident took place, the individual I was supposed to be racing with testified for me and told the court that it was a brown Buick, but a Black/Yellow Dodge that he was racing with.  The Ahole judge wouldn’t  listen, I was found guilty and fined $500.00. I didn’t have the money so they worked out a “payment plan” for my fine.

Since there had been so many cases of military being charged and convicted in this court my Wing Commander held a new conference and threatened to put the town off-limits as a result of the large number of rulings against the military. At that time I was the only person on the base to have been convicted of a traffic incident that was not given an Article 155 and reduced in rank. I was told not to make any payments towards the fine and that I would get orders with-in a few days.  The racing incident took place on April 3,  1964on May 21, 1964 I stepped off the plane in Viet Nam.  About two years later I got a letter from the new Mayor stating that all charges/fines had been forgiven.

Approximately a year later the Chief of Police and Mayor of the city were convinced in Federal court of skimming city funds, also at that time it was found the Mayor and Chief had pushed to have as many military arrested as possible to increase city revenue, which they used as a slush fund by them.

[KIMBER45]

How can you justify the death of an Innocent man using some of your arguments and still consider yourselves good Christians. ?? Your either stiring the pot ,or you are extremely hypocritical.

[Scibaer]

so the real problem is not the death penality , is prosecutiong attornies suffering from personal exceptionalism ..

[r29l20]

There is a very good movie about this, with Kevin Spacey, but I forgot the name of it.

[Cuts Crooked]

How can you justify the death of an Innocent man using some of your arguments and still consider yourselves good Christians. ?? Your either stiring the pot ,or you are extremely hypocritical.

Oh, it's not so hard! After all some folks can justify voting for Romeny, a virtual baby killing machine!

[mcwoodduck]

Dispite what Cuts Crooked says.
I have been for a three appeals or 6 years on death row.
You burn up eaither and you go the next week.
The 6 years gets a stop clock for the time the appeal is pending.
The major cost for the Death row people is the 24 hour availibilty to the lawyers and the endless appeals.
And while a few people have been wrongly identified, there was enough evidence for a jury to convict him.  and for a judge to allow the conviction.
Maybe we need to change the rules a little to include a DNA test that encludes them or multiple eye witness or a video showing the person.
And your statement of how can a good christian allow it.
Wasn't it God that tormented Jobe.  How do we know that God is not tormenting that innocent person and there are reasons for the conviction and sentence?  That will further their faith?
And if you want to end death row then sooner or later you will want ot end life sentences, and then 20 year sentenances, and then prison all together.
Some crimes are bad enough that we as a society say we no longer want you in it.

[Casull]

Nobody's made mention of the innocent people every year who are murdered by released murderers.  I wonder why? 

[DDZ]

Just wonder how some of you would react if someone raped your son, daughter, wife or mother. Or someone murdered your son, daughter, father, mother, wife, brother, sister etc... What if torture was involved? Just guessing the chant "let him live" wouldn't be as loud. Opinions change when one has a dog in the fight.

Again, many of the anti death penalty people don't whisper a word about the thousands of innocent that are killed every day, but are so concerned about protecting murderers so one innocent person is not put to death. I doubt that would even happen today. When is the last time it did happen? Do we have absolute proof that it has happened? 

Maybe we should just let them all go. After all we wouldn't want to take the chance of an innocent person spending his life in jail. What about other public policies that cause innocent people to die. Like speed limits set by the state. If they were lowered, we would certainly safe innocent lives. What about car safety standards set by government? Surely we can build cars to protect innocent people from dieing. How about building safety codes, or prescription drug testing standards. We can certainly save lives by changing these. These decisions result in the death of thousands of people, and by comparison, the number of innocent people executed is negligible. I'm sure there are many other laws and policies we could change to save innocent lives.

  If the consequences are not high enough for murder, we will get more murder. If a parking ticket costs you $10, no big deal right. What if that same parking ticket costs you $1000? You probably would pay very close attention to making sure you put money in the parking meter. What if the sentence for that parking ticket was death. Probably most of us would quit driving, or at the least we would make sure we never get a parking ticket. 

         

[scootrd]

Just wonder how some of you would react if someone raped your son, daughter, wife or mother. Or someone murdered your son, daughter, father, mother, wife, brother, sister etc... What if torture was involved?

My response would be life in prison with out the possibility of parole.
Then our God would pass his final judgement when the convicted persons time had
come to meet him after years of being locked away.