Author Topic: Reasons why the death penality should be abolished !! (Read 5947 times)

ironglow · « **Reply #90 on:** May 03, 2012, 03:06:04 PM »

I have been here listening to the stories of why we should not execute murderers, rapists, torturers etc..because there might be an "innocent' among them. I sure don't want to see an "innocent" person wrongly killed.
I have found however in conversations, that the most strident opposers of capital punishment...are often the most ardent supporters of the most brutal capital punishment of the most innocent among us..preborn boys and girls.

For this reason, if one wants a "poster child" for hypocrisy..one of these guys would be hard to beat !

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #91 on:** May 03, 2012, 05:46:06 PM »

Quote from: Casull on May 03, 2012, 12:42:06 PM

Nobody's made mention of the innocent people every year who are murdered by released murderers. I wonder why?

Probably because you have not asked, and that is not what we are interested in talking about. If YOU want to discuss that - perhaps as a reason to retain death penalty despite likelihood of executing innocents? - then make the case. Otherwise, all you got is a really lame 'gotcha'

Quote from: DDZ on May 03, 2012, 01:34:56 PM

Just wonder how some of you would react if someone raped your son, daughter, wife or mother. Or someone murdered your son, daughter, father, mother, wife, brother, sister etc... What if torture was involved? Just guessing the chant "let him live" wouldn't be as loud. Opinions change when one has a dog in the fight

I think that why they don't some sit on juries, a lack of objectivity.

Quote from: ironglow on May 03, 2012, 03:06:04 PM

I have found however in conversations, that the most strident opposers of capital punishment...are often the most ardent supporters of the most brutal capital punishment of the most innocent among us..preborn boys and girls.
For this reason, if one wants a "poster child" for hypocrisy..one of these guys would be hard to beat !

look in the mirror and you'll prob find a better example, with the added bonus of one who is sure God Is On His Side.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #92 on:** May 03, 2012, 05:47:13 PM »

I think we can have justice without the death penalty. No doubt some need killing - some I might think need killing - but I can do without it.

I also have a hard time seeing Jesus pull the lever to hang someone he died to save, but I understand the anti-Muslim bigots and kill 'me all crowd have no such reservation.

Casull · « **Reply #93 on:** May 03, 2012, 06:06:52 PM »

Quote

Probably because you have not asked, and that is not what we are interested in talking about.

But, that's never stopped you from interjecting opinions that were not asked for and that nobody was interested in talking about.

Quote

Otherwise, all you got is a really lame 'gotcha'

Thank you. That means a lot coming from someone with your "gotcha" expertise.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #94 on:** May 03, 2012, 06:18:20 PM »

Does this mean you want to talk about the number of repeat murderers and how that might commend the death penalty, or that your post on that subject was really about me?

Because.. If you beleive that the number of convicted murders who commit ANOTHER murder after being let out of prison is so high as to justify risk of executing innocents... You should share those numbers and make your case.

....if that is what you were interested in doing

ironglow · « **Reply #95 on:** May 04, 2012, 12:55:31 AM »

Quote from: yellowtail3 on May 03, 2012, 05:46:06 PM

Quote from: Casull on May 03, 2012, 12:42:06 PM
Nobody's made mention of the innocent people every year who are murdered by released murderers. I wonder why?
Probably because you have not asked, and that is not what we are interested in talking about. If YOU want to discuss that - perhaps as a reason to retain death penalty despite likelihood of executing innocents? - then make the case. Otherwise, all you got is a really lame 'gotcha'

Oh I'm sure that's "not what you are interested in talking about". Still no answer for the victims of repeat killings !

Quote from: DDZ on May 03, 2012, 01:34:56 PM
Just wonder how some of you would react if someone raped your son, daughter, wife or mother. Or someone murdered your son, daughter, father, mother, wife, brother, sister etc... What if torture was involved? Just guessing the chant "let him live" wouldn't be as loud. Opinions change when one has a dog in the fight
I think that why they don't some sit on juries, a lack of objectivity.

They DON'T sit on juries NOW.... And you still avoided DDZ's question.....

Quote from: ironglow on May 03, 2012, 03:06:04 PM
I have found however in conversations, that the most strident opposers of capital punishment...are often the most ardent supporters of the most brutal capital punishment of the most innocent among us..preborn boys and girls.
For this reason, if one wants a "poster child" for hypocrisy..one of these guys would be hard to beat !
look in the mirror and you'll prob find a better example, with the added bonus of one who is sure God Is On His Side.
[/quote

I am a consistant Christian,...I am Pro-Life, especially for these, the MOST INNOCENT among us. Show us your consistency by reaffirming your stand for these little, pre-born boys and girls! Until you do that, you have not answered the charge above and your Christian "walk" looks more like a dash for the "wide gate" while playing "dodge ball" with God's words which don't fit your agenda.

"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction." (Prov 31:8 KJV)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #96 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:05:23 AM »

Sounds like the death pentaly is little more than revenge in many cases. The cheap way out in others.
I agree some may need killing and it would be easier to do over keeping them locked up. But the above applies still. So let God judge them when they meet . And we don't have to commit murder .

BUGEYE · « **Reply #97 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:06:20 AM »

In these days of DNA, I don't think any innocents are given the death penalty, except unborns of course.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #98 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:16:31 AM »

Quote from: Casull on May 03, 2012, 12:42:06 PM

Nobody's made mention of the innocent people every year who are murdered by released murderers. I wonder why?

Actually, I did clear back here:

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on May 03, 2012, 06:07:35 AM

Quote from: guzzijohn on May 03, 2012, 02:41:21 AM
Quote from Cuts Crooked:
"AS I noted earlier, no human endeavour is perfect."

Hard to come up with a better point than the above as a reason to abolish the death penalty.
GuzziJohn

By the same logic, hard to come up with a better point than the above as a reason to retain the death penalty.

Life in prison for an innocent could be considered extrodinarily cruel. Death penalty is quick so the suffering is over quick? (actually not, they drag it out forever which is also cruel)

Not perfect! A good chance that a convicted savage might end up released to prey on innocents yet again with "Life" sentences.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #99 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:23:23 AM »

Killing unborn is one of the worst sins man commits.
The death pen is not about punishment its about the rest of us commiting murder as a group. And if someone I loved or was near to was raped or murdered I'm sure I would want the person who did it to pay . But if you can step back and think what does killing the POC do other than make us as bad as they are ? It might be better to lock them away so they can't do their crime to others. I'm not suggesting letting them out after time but life behind bars in a cell with out contact with the outside world including family or friends.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #100 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:43:51 AM »

Lets make something very clear here:
The elements of common law murder are:

Unlawful
killing
of a human
by another human
with malice aforethought.

So as you can see, the death penalty is not murder, in spite of what the liberal mindset wants us to believe.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #101 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:07:05 AM »

Ok , please explain which law is higher mans or Gods ?
Please explain how the Bible tells us to not kill but its OK to kill another person ? Yes if we are defending ourselves the Bible says it is OK but if our life is not threatened we should not kill. Today we have the means to put there animals away for life so we as a group have a choice .
I used murder when I should have used kill.
I can assure you I am no liberal nor do I follow their ideas . I do try to follow Gods law though which I hold above all other.
My point is should we as a people violate Gods law ? and for what purpose ? Is it to get even ? to keep others from commiting murder out of fear they will be killed ? to make us feel like we got even with the bad guy ?
We are supposed to forgive ( yes hard to do sometimes) but nothing says we can't keep the animal from hurting others . Its a complex situation and I don't know the ansewer really but offer my thoughts as I see things. I would add that anyone who commits murder has a mental problem and it should not be a defense .

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #102 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:24:14 AM »

Here ya go:

Leviticus 20:2-27 (American Standard Version) (ASV) ²Moreover, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
³I also will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
⁴And if the people at the land do at all hide their eyes from that man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and put him not to death;
⁵then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that play the harlot after him, to play the harlot with Molech, from among their people.
⁶And the soul that turneth unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto the wizards, to play the harlot after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
⁷Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy; for I am Jehovah your God.
⁸And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am Jehovah who sanctifieth you.
⁹For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
¹⁰And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
¹¹And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
¹²And if a man lie with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
¹³And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
¹⁴And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
¹⁵And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
¹⁶And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
¹⁷And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a shameful thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of the children of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
¹⁸And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath made naked her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
¹⁹And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister; for he hath made naked his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.
²⁰And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.
²¹And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is impurity: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
²²Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all mine ordinances, and do them; that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, vomit you not out.
²³And ye shall not walk in the customs of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they did all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
²⁴But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land flowing with milk and honey: I am Jehovah your God, who hath separated you from the peoples.
²⁵Ye shall therefore make a distinction between the clean beast and the unclean, and between the unclean fowl and the clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by bird, or by anything wherewith the ground teemeth, which I have separated from you as unclean.
²⁶And ye shall be holy unto me: for I, Jehovah, am holy, and have set you apart from the peoples, that ye should be mine.
²⁷A man also or a woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them.
=======================================================

Not my intent to turn this into A theological discussion, but you asked.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #103 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:34:27 AM »

Cuts Crooked , good scripture for sure but it omits the reason for the birth of Jesus and his sacrifice for man. He show us forgivness over punishment in the laws of the Old Testiment . But this has been the debate between Jew and Christian for 2000 tears .

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #104 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:45:39 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on May 04, 2012, 02:34:27 AM

Cuts Crooked , good scripture for sure but it omits the reason for the birth of Jesus and his sacrifice for man. He show us forgivness over punishment in the laws of the Old Testiment . But this has been the debate between Jew and Christian for 2000 tears .

The guy asked for biblical references. He didn't specify testiments.

However, many Christians refer to Romans 13: 3 - 4 for justification of the death penalty.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #105 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:54:45 AM »

I could go along with life-with-no-parole if we could extend it to include any crime that involves violence.

guzzijohn · « **Reply #106 on:** May 04, 2012, 03:10:02 AM »

Quote from Bugeye:
"I could go along with life-with-no-parole if we could extend it to include any crime that involves violence."

Be careful what you wish for. The above then would apply to a one time domestic violence case. Or how about if Zimmerman is convicted of manslaughter, the above should apply? It should apply to someone convicted of simple assault that stemmed from a drunken bar fight?
GuzziJohn

BUGEYE · « **Reply #107 on:** May 04, 2012, 03:27:51 AM »

Quote from: guzzijohn on May 04, 2012, 03:10:02 AM

Quote from Bugeye:
"I could go along with life-with-no-parole if we could extend it to include any crime that involves violence."

Be careful what you wish for. The above then would apply to a one time domestic violence case. Or how about if Zimmerman is convicted of manslaughter, the above should apply? It should apply to someone convicted of simple assault that stemmed from a drunken bar fight?
GuzziJohn

I have never used violence against anyone. judges have the option to allow leniency for first offenders. and there's the three-strikes-and-you're-out clause that could be used. repeat offenders should be removed from society, forever......

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #108 on:** May 04, 2012, 03:48:14 AM »

Quote from: Cuts Crooked on May 04, 2012, 02:45:39 AM

Quote from: SHOOTALL on May 04, 2012, 02:34:27 AM
Cuts Crooked , good scripture for sure but it omits the reason for the birth of Jesus and his sacrifice for man. He show us forgivness over punishment in the laws of the Old Testiment . But this has been the debate between Jew and Christian for 2000 tears .

The guy asked for biblical references. He didn't specify testiments.

However, many Christians refer to Romans 13: 3 - 4 for justification of the death penalty.

But should be read with the understanding of who it was ment for which was not all the people of Rome.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #109 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:38:08 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on May 04, 2012, 02:07:05 AM

Ok , please explain which law is higher mans or Gods ?
Please explain how the Bible tells us to not kill but its OK to kill another person ? Yes if we are defending ourselves the Bible says it is OK but if our life is not threatened we should not kill. Today we have the means to put there animals away for life so we as a group have a choice .
I used murder when I should have used kill.
I can assure you I am no liberal nor do I follow their ideas . I do try to follow Gods law though which I hold above all other.
My point is should we as a people violate Gods law ? and for what purpose ? Is it to get even ? to keep others from commiting murder out of fear they will be killed ? to make us feel like we got even with the bad guy ?
We are supposed to forgive ( yes hard to do sometimes) but nothing says we can't keep the animal from hurting others . Its a complex situation and I don't know the ansewer really but offer my thoughts as I see things. I would add that anyone who commits murder has a mental problem and it should not be a defense .

You need to reread your bible. In exodus there were many time just after God handed the 10 comandments down that he ordered the Isrealis to murder and exicute people. I think killing prisoners of war is murder, and exicuting by hanging a king is definatly a killing, murder maybe.

KIMBER45 · « **Reply #110 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:47:02 AM »

Quote from: Casull on May 03, 2012, 12:42:06 PM

Nobody's made mention of the innocent people every year who are murdered by released murderers. I wonder why?

If innocent people are released, it's a sign the system works. If convected murders are released, it's a sign the system doesn't work. How many convicted murders are released?

BUGEYE · « **Reply #111 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:54:21 AM »

Quote from: KIMBER45 on May 04, 2012, 05:47:02 AM

Quote from: Casull on May 03, 2012, 12:42:06 PM
Nobody's made mention of the innocent people every year who are murdered by released murderers. I wonder why?
If innocent people are released, it's a sign the system works. If convected murders are released, it's a sign the system doesn't work. How many convicted murders are released?

they are paroled all the time. and some are buddies of former governor barbour.

scootrd · « **Reply #112 on:** May 04, 2012, 06:43:38 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on May 03, 2012, 03:06:04 PM

I have been here listening to the stories of why we should not execute murderers, rapists, torturers etc..because there might be an "innocent' among them. I sure don't want to see an "innocent" person wrongly killed.
I have found however in conversations, that the most strident opposers of capital punishment...are often the most ardent supporters of the most brutal capital punishment of the most innocent among us..preborn boys and girls.

For this reason, if one wants a "poster child" for hypocrisy..one of these guys would be hard to beat !

I disagree , I do not view these two separate views as Hypocritical.
I personally do not agree with capital punishment , and personally do not agree with abortion (neither does anyone else in my christian family.) and if approached I would try to talk a mother out of getting an abortion.

However , I also do not agree Roe vs Wade should be overturned, and I do not agree with all this anti-abortion legislation
being passed at state level. To have an abortion or not , is not the role of Gov't to decide . There is not a no abortion clause in the constitution.

We all must answer to our Lord and Savior for our own crimes when judgement day comes. Just as Adam and Eve were punished in the garden, We must all personally choose what path to follow and face the consequences for "our own" misdeeds , not the misdeeds of others.

I reconcile these two separate issues within my core beliefs. Just because I don't agree with someones choice, I should not be able to push my personal or religious beliefs on others.

note : The Jewish faith believes the life of the mother is of greater importance than the life of an unborn child. All humanly possible actions should be taken to preserve the mothers life if a choice needs to be made. So if you outlaw abortion, you are now treading on the beliefs of anothers religion.

and yes abortion saddens me as does capital punnishment.

JMHO - feel free to ignore.

powderman · « **Reply #113 on:** May 04, 2012, 06:44:13 AM »

OKAY, question for all you support em the rest of their lives guys. What kind of life you willing to pay for?? If I allowed em to live, and I do mean IF, it would be nothing but the basics, maybe a visitor once a month. Food, clothing, and shelter, + a chance for spiritual guidance and salvation for their misdeeds. No tv, weight room, activity room, no fancy or spcl food, cell phones or any other phone access. What do you think WE should pay for?? POWDERMAN.

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #114 on:** May 04, 2012, 06:49:32 AM »

Quote from: powderman on May 04, 2012, 06:44:13 AM

What do you think WE should pay for?? POWDERMAN.

That's easy! A long drop and a short stop!

BUGEYE · « **Reply #115 on:** May 04, 2012, 06:57:05 AM »

Quote from: scootrd on May 04, 2012, 06:43:38 AM

Quote from: ironglow on May 03, 2012, 03:06:04 PM
I have been here listening to the stories of why we should not execute murderers, rapists, torturers etc..because there might be an "innocent' among them. I sure don't want to see an "innocent" person wrongly killed.
I have found however in conversations, that the most strident opposers of capital punishment...are often the most ardent supporters of the most brutal capital punishment of the most innocent among us..preborn boys and girls.

For this reason, if one wants a "poster child" for hypocrisy..one of these guys would be hard to beat !

I disagree , I do not view these two separate views as Hypocritical.
I personally do not agree with capital punishment , and personally do not agree with abortion (neither does anyone else in my christian family.) and if approached I would try to talk a mother out of getting an abortion.

However , I also do not agree Roe vs Wade should be overturned, and I do not agree with all this anti-abortion legislation
being passed at state level. To have an abortion or not , is not the role of Gov't to decide . There is not a no abortion clause in the constitution.

We all must answer to our Lord and Savior for our own crimes when judgement day comes. Just as Adam and Eve were punished in the garden, We must all personally choose what path to follow and face the consequences for "our own" misdeeds , not the misdeeds of others.

I reconcile these two separate issues within my core beliefs. Just because I don't agree with someones choice, I should not be able to push my personal or religious beliefs on others.

note : The Jewish faith believes the life of the mother is of greater importance than the life of an unborn child. All humanly possible actions should be taken to preserve the mothers life if a choice needs to be made. So if you outlaw abortion, you are now treading on the beliefs of anothers religion.

and yes abortion saddens me as does capital punnishment.

JMHO - feel free to ignore.

what's that about "LIFE" liberty and the pursuit of happiness. and nobody here argues with self defense. abortion as a form of birth control is an abomination.

Casull · « **Reply #116 on:** May 04, 2012, 07:10:53 AM »

Quote

There is not a no abortion clause in the constitution.

Neither is there a clause in the Constitution noting a right to abortion. In fact, for the first roughly 200 years of this country, there was no such "right" under the Constitution.

scootrd · « **Reply #117 on:** May 04, 2012, 07:11:05 AM »

what's that about "LIFE" liberty and the pursuit of happiness. and nobody here argues with self defense. abortion as a form of birth control is an abomination.

While I may personally agree with your view regarding abortion, That is for the each individual to decide , not the role of our govt. Who's Life? , Who's liberty ?, Who's happiness ? - as stated in the my example regarding the Jewish peoples beliefs.

Individuals need to follow their own path and answer for the path they choose.

Casull · « **Reply #118 on:** May 04, 2012, 07:15:32 AM »

Quote

While I may personally agree with your view regarding abortion, That is for the each individual to decide

If you believe that a human life is unjustifiably being taken, then it is not for "each individual to decide". No more than saying that if you want to kill your neighbor, it is for each individual to decide.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #119 on:** May 04, 2012, 07:25:13 AM »

Quote from: Casull on May 04, 2012, 07:15:32 AM

Quote
While I may personally agree with your view regarding abortion, That is for the each individual to decide

If you believe that a human life is unjustifiably being taken, then it is not for "each individual to decide". No more than saying that if you want to kill your neighbor, it is for each individual to decide.

LOL, being an un-born baby these days is more dangerous than being in a war zone.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
people claim to be Christians, but......
http://www.abort73.com/abortion/biblical_teaching/