Author Topic: Death of the Commercial Mauser (Read 8514 times)

Brithunter · « **Reply #60 on:** July 09, 2012, 12:01:19 AM »

Quote from: George Foster on July 08, 2012, 10:33:16 PM

Swamp, that is the same picture of a group you showed on 24HR Campfire and then someone showed the picture of the whole group. The whole group showed two bullet holes way away that you claimed were foulers. I do believe your reputation is intact!

Swampman caught out yet again .......................................... not that anyone is surprised.

Note no witnesses and only part, the best part of a group shown. Now why are we not surprised?

I suppose two shots that miss the quarry can be called foulers?

Swampman · « **Reply #61 on:** July 09, 2012, 01:54:26 AM »

Not the same group, it measured 1/2 MOA and was shot with an oiled bore to show why you should never clean a bore.

Brithunter · « **Reply #62 on:** July 09, 2012, 11:45:59 PM »

Swampman I simply cannot believe the total rubbish you spout at times

I really wonder if you believe half of it yourself.

The only rifle bore that does not require cleaning to maintain it properly and prolong it's working life is the .22 Rim Fire due to the special lubricant used on the bullets which leave a protective coating inside the bore. Of course it will not stop the ring of erosion that develops at the chamber mouth/leade juncture after many rounds have been fired but it does protect the bore from normal erossion from moisture.

The .22 L/R bore in this photo is what happens to rifle bores that are not cared for:-

Even though this is a rim fire this one is old enough to have been shot with not only corrosive priming but also Black Powder. Perhaps not the best photo but the bore has pitting and was like it when I brought it. The rifle was made prior to The Great War (WW1). It was this very reason that A.G. Parker & Company Limited as Parker-Hale were known at the time developed their "Parkerifling" liners to restore rifles with damaged or corroded bores. Remember that corrosive rimfire ammunition was still being produced and sold at least up until 1939 if not later still.

Mr A.T.C. Hale developed this just after the end of the 2nd Boer War so about 1903.

I have seen many rifles with damage caused by lack of care and maintenance one particular rifle looked quite good until it was cleaned to remove the build up of fouling. The owner subscribed to your thinking and thus the bore was pitted under the fouling. Moisture creeps in and then gets to work.

I saw a fine Sauer model 202 that wouldn't group well a thorough cleaning revealed a rusted spot in the bore. A friend who works in a gun shop where a rather nice looking Heym bolt action rifle was brought in as it had lost the ability to group it's shots found the bore so furred up with rust that he needed a mallet to drive the rod with brush attached trough the bore. The barrel was scrap. Seems the owner went on a trip to Europe Boar shooting in the snow and mist then just put the rifle in it's case and came home then put the still cased rifle in the cabinet where it sat for a month or two result one scrapped barrel and a hefty bill for repair.

If the owner have wiped the rifle down and cleaned it on returning home the bore would most likely have been fine.

Now as for this:-

Quote

[size=0px]Not the same group, it measured 1/2 MOA and was shot with an oiled bore to show why you should never clean a bore.[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]

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A perfect example of how little you know. There is enough well documented evidence to show that shooting with an oiled fouled bore is risking damage to the rifle and those near to it. Barrels have burst through oil in the bore. Any oil MUST be removed before firing a rifle once again you show your total lack on knowledge and understanding of firearms and basic shooting care and safety.

God must love you for some reason to have kept you safe all these years when through ignorance or plain stupidity you repeatedly put yourself and others at risk with stunts like this.

Swampman · « **Reply #63 on:** July 10, 2012, 02:32:16 AM »

The bottom line is, I'm right and you know it. It's common knowledge. I get people from 2-3 MOA down to less than 1 MOA all the time. They just have to stop cleaning those bores.

rzwieg · « **Reply #64 on:** July 10, 2012, 05:25:15 AM »

It depends on the rifle. What often happens is the first shot from an oiled bore will hit in a different place than those fired after a bit of fouling. Some rifles don't care and some showing signs of neglect shoot amazingly well until 30 rounds of fouling opened up groups to shotgun patterns.

Rules are fine but variables matter.

Brithunter · « **Reply #65 on:** July 10, 2012, 07:26:59 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on July 10, 2012, 02:32:16 AM

The bottom line is, I'm right and you know it. It's common knowledge. I get people from 2-3 MOA down to less than 1 MOA all the time. They just have to stop cleaning those bores.

Ahhh what you mean is :-

"The bottom line is, I'm right in my own little mind and you know it. "
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[/size]Yes Swampman we know you live in your own little world.

Swampman · « **Reply #66 on:** July 10, 2012, 07:36:50 AM »

Quote from: rzwieg on July 10, 2012, 05:25:15 AM

It depends on the rifle. What often happens is the first shot from an oiled bore will hit in a different place than those fired after a bit of fouling. Some rifles don't care and some showing signs of neglect shoot amazingly well until 30 rounds of fouling opened up groups to shotgun patterns.

Rules are fine but variables matter.

Most rifles will shoot 400-500 rounds without "opening up". It will take at least a dozens shots to get the rifle to settle down after cleaning. Most folks don't realize this. They stick with methods and rifles that are antiques and don't group very well. I help plenty of folks sort their issues out. The hardest habit to break them from is cleaning and oiling. Oil goes on the outside of the barrel.

vk4ale · « **Reply #67 on:** July 10, 2012, 04:32:38 PM »

Hi all, hello swampman here is a photo or two of my old m70 zastava mauser 458 win mag, and a couple of groups I have shot with a clean barrel.Cheers all, your mate from australia Allan.

Swampman · « **Reply #68 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:05:55 PM »

Not so good. If you need assistance I'll be glad to help. I had one of those that I sold for $225.00 with a scope mounted. Nobody wanted it.

vk4ale · « **Reply #69 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:28:46 PM »

Hi Swampman, you are good for a laugh mate I will give you that.Thanks for the offer to teach me a bit, but I am to old to change my ways,I am 62 and grew up in the bush so have been shooting since 9years old for food,sport and work. Have fun cheers Allan.

Swampman · « **Reply #70 on:** July 10, 2012, 09:33:52 PM »

The Mausers are ok for hunting. Every once in awhile you'll get a good group with one. They simply aren't in the same class accuracy wise as the push feeds are. They won't be missed by real riflemen.

Brithunter · « **Reply #71 on:** July 11, 2012, 12:17:45 AM »

The one and only reason that Swampman says the push feeds are the most accurate types of rifles is because the Remington happens to be a push feed. Now if the Remington still used the long claw type extractor that would be the best and most accurate.

Same as if Remington stopped making bolt action rifle all together and switch to smooth bore muskets they would also be the most accurate guns in the world

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When a new member to GBO can so quickly see that Swampman is so ridiculous .......................................... well it says a lot about him

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Swampman · « **Reply #72 on:** July 11, 2012, 02:03:51 AM »

Just stating the well known and well documented facts. Believe anything you like. It won't make it true.

Brithunter · « **Reply #73 on:** July 11, 2012, 06:49:31 AM »

Exactly Swampman.

No matter how many time you say it, no matter how many times you write it, the real fact is that your living in a delusional world of your own.

Remington is NOT the best rifle in the world.

Remington is NOT the most accurate production rifle made.

Now those are real world facts and swamp world delusion.

Swampman · « **Reply #74 on:** July 11, 2012, 12:00:22 PM »

The Remington Model 700 is the "Most accurate and best selling production rifle in the world." That's all I've ever said, and those are the documented facts.....It's next to impossible to find another production boltgun that will shoot MOA or better. I've just spent the last several months looking and I was willing to spend $2000.00.

Barstooler · « **Reply #75 on:** July 11, 2012, 04:40:34 PM »

Never seen such unadularated BS in my entire life.

Been shooting since 1958. Been reloading since 1964.

I don't have as many rifles as many/most of you but the ones that I have I shoot a whole bunch.

I used to think that the Rem 700 was a good, accurate rifle.

First 2 that I bought were both .5 to .75 MOA with 5-shot groups with most loads.

The third Rem 700 that I bought was a nightmare (3.5 to 4.0 MOA no matter what I loaded). The night mare never ended until I paid another $750 to true the action, rebarrel the SOB, and professionally rebed the action. I could have bought another rifle instead of fixing that POS that I bought from Remington.

But in the end, I am happy with my Rem 700, trued action, professionally bedded, Shielen Barrelled 243 AI. -- Thanks to my pocket book. No thanks to Big Green.

I will neve buy another Remington again NO MATTER WHAT!!!

All my other rifles are CRF. I never had that much of a problem getting them to shoot accurately (0.6 to 0.8 MOA with 5-shot groups and even 1.0 MOA with 10-shot groups -- which would be a Swampman 0.0000000001 MOA 1 shot group)

My neighbor owns a Rem 700 (built in 1962, long before CNC) and it has not been pretty trying to get that damn thing to shoot inside 2.0 MOA. I have numerous other friends who love the Savage and they all seem to get damn good accuracy out of their "out of the box" rifles.

So anyone who claims that Remington delivers the "best" out of the box accuracy is either dillusional or an idiot...or as I have stated before, a paid shill.

I just don't buy the "out of the box" accuracy argument anymore ON ANY RIFLE. My 50 years of experience tells me that they all need tweaking of the bedding, they all need tweaking for load development, and very few will shoot a 10 shot group inside 1.0 MOA.

Even a "blind squirrel" can shoot a 3 shot group OCCASSIONALLY inside 0.5 MOA given they burn and roast their acorns on the multiple targets that demonstrate shittier (is that a real word?) accuracy.

IMHO a rifles' real accuracy comes out with consistent 5 and 10 shot groups. Better yet, show me a 60 shot group on a 10-15mph windy day inside 2.4 MOA and I will buy you a beer.

Anything under a 5 shot group is really just "deer hunting accuracy."

Barstooler

vk4ale · « **Reply #76 on:** July 11, 2012, 05:31:35 PM »

Hi all, the Mauser 458 mag back up the page is able to reguarly shoot 5 shot groups if I want to waste powder and bullets,the groups shown were shot testing different bullet weights,powder and primas with a cold clean barrel as it would be if I was going hunting, but hot or cold it holds constant point of aim.The action is bedded and floated .Remingtons are not as popular in Australia as they were a few years ago. Cheers Allan.PS The regular scope for the rifle is a Nikon African 1-4x20 I put the 10 power mil on for shooting red Deer long distance over an oat crop.

Swampman · « **Reply #77 on:** July 11, 2012, 10:08:05 PM »

The best rifle in the world in the hands of folks who can't shoot is hamstrung. If your Model 700 won't do 1/2 MOA out of the box it's you or the ammo and not the rifle. If your cleaning a rifle between range sessions you'll never be able to shoot small groups. Those are the facts. Sadly most can't shoot and the rifle gets the blame.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #78 on:** July 12, 2012, 04:03:16 AM »

VK swamp couldn't shoot a 458win mag in any rifle like that heck he cant shoot a 45-70 that well. He posted some of his groups with a Ruger#1 45-70 and they were squib loads to boot and he said he thought they were pretty good groups I have $200 muzzle'loaders that can out shoot it all day long with stiff loads, I just laughed to myself and moved on. Brit and Bar I think ol swampy is in some serious need of a magnum dose of Turbo Lax! And to get back on track the Mauser action is alive and well in the Win M70, Ruger77, CZ, Zastava and more. All my M70s can shoot 5 shot groups as well and even better than the one he posted and after replacing a set of defective scope rings on my Ruger 77 350 RM I found out it can do the same.

Swampman · « **Reply #79 on:** July 12, 2012, 04:49:59 AM »

That's pretty funny stuff. Thanks for the comic relief. Hopefully we've seen the demise of an unneeded and antique design. Game animals deserve clean humane deaths and the Model 700 delivers that.

Brithunter · « **Reply #80 on:** July 12, 2012, 10:10:25 AM »

The only sad comic here is you Swampman.

Yet again you prove it by not being able to comprehend a simple post. There are new rifles that have the Mauser type controlled round feeding being made today in mainstream production yet what do you do?

Come back with one of the stupidest things :-

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[size=0px]Hopefully we've seen the demise of an unneeded and antique design.[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]

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One has to wonder how you actually function in the real world?

Sad very sad.

George Foster · « **Reply #81 on:** July 13, 2012, 04:51:12 AM »

I know I shouldn't bother to waste my time but I will. I know that a lot of the statements Swampman makes is gleaned from what he reads on 24hr Campfire that John Barness says. I know John feels you shouldn't be cleaning your rifles that often and it wasn't that long ago that John made that statement.

Myself it has always been a policy with me to clean my rifles after each 20rds and I have done so as long as I have been shooting centerfires. The other morning I went to the range with one of my 6mm Rem rifles which had been stored with a trace of oil in the bore from the last time I shot it and cleaned it. My method is I will run two dry patches through the barrel and then shoot two foulers before I start shooting groups. I like to shoot one three shot group and three five shot groups along with the two foulers. That is what I did and got the following results.

Two foulers - 5/8"
Three shot goup -1/2"
1st five shot group - 5/8"
2nd five shot goup - 1"(My fault I had four in 5/8" and knew I pulled one)
3rd five shot group - 1/2"

My load as follows:

Rem Case
Fed 210M Primer
75HP Sierra
48.0gr RL19

This is pretty much the same as I find with all my rifles and have never found for my use it takes a bunch of rounds to settle the rifles in after cleaning.

Swampman · « **Reply #82 on:** July 13, 2012, 06:56:31 AM »

I can't afford to shoot a box of ammo to get my rifle to settle down and shoot right. I developed my way in 1976 before I ever heard of John B. A novice will clean his rifle often. A riflemen knows better. Current Mauser knock offs are poor shooters. That's why the companies that make them can't stay in business.

This stuff is very funny but the coffee squirting out of my nose has ruined my keyboard. I have to run to Office Depot to pick up another one.

George Foster · « **Reply #83 on:** July 13, 2012, 10:18:40 PM »

It doesn't take a box of cartridges to settle a rifle in if it is setup properly as all mine are, it only takes two foulers. Besides if you can't afford to shoot a box of ammo then it is no wonder you have not been willing to tell of your group size correctly. BTW, the group on 24hr that was actually a five shot group instead of the 3 shot group you said meaured 1-1/2" not 1/2". The other difference is you weren't showing a group that was affected by an oily bore you were telling how accurate one of you Rem 700's was with factory ammo. When you talk about things being laughable there you go!!

Swampman · « **Reply #84 on:** July 13, 2012, 10:46:02 PM »

Now George there's no need to make stuff up. It was a 5 shot group that measured 1/2". I admit that's poor shooting for a Model 700 but the bore had oil in it. A clean rifle just won't shoot and 20-30 rounds will get it shooting right again. No need to clean and no need to waste ammo. Don't be upset because I'm right. I just am and that's it.

George Foster · « **Reply #85 on:** July 14, 2012, 12:06:05 AM »

Swamp, as I said this is what you practice, and I will admit you are good at it.

"If you can't dazzle them with brillance then baffle them with bs".

Swampman · « **Reply #86 on:** July 14, 2012, 12:11:39 AM »

All that matters to me is the truth. You know I'm right and that's enough.

JeffG · « **Reply #87 on:** July 14, 2012, 03:57:35 AM »

Geez guys, lock this thing....

BruceP · « **Reply #88 on:** July 14, 2012, 04:14:26 AM »

I have to ask. If the best accuracy comes from a barrel that has not been cleaned. Why have we not been hearing this from those who go to more trouble for an extra .01" than any others, the benchrest shooters. It seems they clean after every few rounds. During load developement they will clean between groups. Now I do agree that an oiled barrel may not shoot to the same group as a fouled barrel.

Bruce

Brithunter · « **Reply #89 on:** July 14, 2012, 06:42:45 AM »

BruceP

now why did you have to go and bring truth and fact into this. You just trying to confusicate and bewilder the poor chap.