70mpg Autos Made in USA...but you're not allowed to have them..

[LONGTOM]

  Take a look around now and you'll see 10 and 11 year old cars with 250,000 or more miles and NO RUST.

That's because PLASTIC don't rust! 
 
 
LONGTOM

[magooch]

Back in the late Fifties and in the Sixties I was an auto mechanic and it wasn't abnormal to have to overhaul engines at 50,000 miles.  The valves in some of them were crap.  But on the other hand they were a snap to work on compared to what's out there now.
 
All the same, I would take that bet about a Honda Accord with a 4 banger being able to dust a Chevelle with a 350.  You've got to be kidding.

[BUGEYE]

Back in the late Fifties and in the Sixties I was an auto mechanic and it wasn't abnormal to have to overhaul engines at 50,000 miles.  The valves in some of them were crap.  But on the other hand they were a snap to work on compared to what's out there now.
 
All the same, I would take that bet about a Honda Accord with a 4 banger being able to dust a Chevelle with a 350.  You've got to be kidding.

I have a BIL that had a chevelle 350 in the 70s.  that thing would cram you back in the seat.
I was terrified to ride with him...

[yellowtail3]

We'd have to look up numbers for an old chevelle... And compare. I remember those cars, having driven them. E erytime I drive a new car it impresses the heck out of me. I am driving a 2012 (?) Dodge Avenger rental right now in n Diego... Great performance for a pretty big car w/2.4 four, amazing handling on the way up to Palomar the other day..

[guzzijohn]

Doing a little quick research here is what I found:


1974 Chevelle with the standard 350 was 11.4 0-60 and 17.8 1/4 mile.
The SS version was much quicker              5.3                 13.6


2012 Honda Accord sedan with standard 4 banger   8.9 and 16.6


So according to the above the standard Accord is quicker than the standard Chevelle 350 in 74.
GuzziJohn

[Dixie Dude]

Ford makes a Fiesta diesel in Germany that gets 63 mpg highway.  I have read that the car companies are going to make more diesels for their bigger vehicles so they can meet the fuel requirements.  American diesel has been cleaned up and sulfer removed.  That extra refining makes it cost more.  However, it is easier to make diesel than gasoline.  Germany has 85% diesel vehicles on their roads.  They cut their fuel imports drastically when they went to diesels.  They average 30% better mileage for a comparable gasoline vehicle.  They cost more than gasoline, but less than hybrids.  In the next few years there will be more on the road. 
 
We converted an F-250 diesel in Birmingham to a combination diesel-natural gas, and it gets 36 mpg diesel.  I don't remembe how much natural gas equivelant was injected with the diesel.  Both fuels run at the same time.  Natural gas is about $1.35-$1.85 equivelant cost per gallon vs gasoline.  Just need more compressor stations installed around the country. 
 
The vehicle "fleet average" is the mpg government requirement. So they will still make big vehicles, but they will probably be diesel within 10-20 years.  Small vehicles will probably be hybrids and diesels.  If they made a diesel hybrid big vehicle or truck, one would probably get 30-50 mpg in them. 
 
Chrysler makes an all plastic vehicle, except engine, drive train, wheels and axles, in Brazil.  This vehicle is a 5 seater hatchback, no air, no heater, and gets 75 mpg.  It has a two cylinder garden tractor air cooled engine.  Sells new for about $4,000.  It will not be sold in America because it doesn't meet our safety standards.   

[Silvertp]

You guys missed a significant factor in mileage, and that is the weight of the drivers foot.  My wife drives a Honda Civic with a small 4 cylinder.  It routinely gets low to mid 30's mpg.  My son got into "hyper mileage" driving, thus started a little male competition.  We have both averaged mid 40's for a tank of gas by dropping our top speeds (Im really not in that big of hurry any more) and by kicking the manual out of gear and coasting down some of the passes.  On cross country trips we find a light foot and mild acceleration will easily beat the "cruise control" for mileage.

Silvertp

[BUGEYE]

Doing a little quick research here is what I found:


1974 Chevelle with the standard 350 was 11.4 0-60 and 17.8 1/4 mile.
The SS version was much quicker              5.3                 13.6


2012 Honda Accord sedan with standard 4 banger   8.9 and 16.6


So according to the above the standard Accord is quicker than the standard Chevelle 350 in 74.
GuzziJohn

nope, not a standard 4-banger.  it's a new 192HP engine in a very light car.

accord curb weight 2100lbs
chevell curb weight 3256lbs

[guzzijohn]

BUGEYE a 2012 Accord sedan weighs 3,127 lbs in standard trim and the figures I printed were for the sedan with the standard 177HP engine. I own a 2001 and a 2003 and they are both over 3,000#s
GuzziJohn

[yellowtail3]

nope, not a standard 4-banger.  it's a new 192HP engine in a very light car.

accord curb weight 2100lbs
chevell curb weight 3256lbs

Bigeye, you've gotten bogus info... A 4cyl accord weighs about 1000 pounds more than you're quoting. Thanks to Guzzi for providing Numbers but I think he is optimistic on the Chevelle SS, certainly in '74 - I don't know that any stock Chevy in 1974 could break into the thirteens, most couldn't do a high fourteen 1/4mile.

You guys missed a significant factor in mileage, and that is the weight of the drivers foot.  My wife drives a Honda Civic with a small 4 cylinder.  It routinely gets low to mid 30's mpg.  My son got into "hyper mileage" driving, thus started a little male competition.  We have both averaged mid 40's for a tank of gas by dropping our top speeds (Im really not in that big of hurry any more) and by kicking the manual out of gear and coasting down some of the passes.  On cross country trips we find a light foot and mild acceleration will easily beat the "cruise control" for mileage.

Silvertp

Silvertip has got that right. Using same hyper mailing techniques, I hit 40mpg in the old wagon, sometimes. Coast, shut down at longer stops, never rev past about 2300 accelerating, shOrt shift and keep to sixty-ish.... Makes all the diff

[Dixie Dude]

Maybe that is how they list the higher mileage, by being very conservative.  My Expedition is supposed to get around 18mpg.  With the 10% ethynol I only get about 14 mpg.  With pure gasoline, I get about 16 mpg.  It is nice pulling a boat or trailer though, has plenty of energy. 

[KIMBER45]

I heard those rumors back in the 70's when gas first broke the 1 dollar a gallon mark. The way the story went was- some inventors came up with carburetors that would allow a car to get over 40  miles to the gallon. Those people were allegedly bought out by the oil companies for millions of dollars. Don't know if it's true, but a good story.

[Dixie Dude]

I looked this up one time through Google.  There were several patents from the 1930's to the 60's that would increase mileage.  They listed the patent number and description of the items.  Some were new type carburators, etc.  Someone bought them up or they would have been manufactured. 
 
During WWII, the B-29's increased their range by injecting water into the hot cylinders after they took off.  They injected somehow.  The water increased the range by 20%.  Somehow the water got so hot in the cylinder that it immediately turned to steam adding extra push, thus allowing for less fuel to be needed to push the cylinder.  If this system could be added to cars, it would immediately increase mileage by 20% and water is cheap, even if you had to pay some for it while fueling gasoline.  I think the injection back then may have been through an extra valve.  Water may have  turned to steam while cooling the engine. 

[Casull]

Dixie Dude, there is at least one outfit that is selling a water injection system for vehicles and it supposedly increases mileage by 10% to 20% (if my memory serves me).  I was reading about it some time back on line.  I don't recall the site, but it shouldn't be too hard to look up.

[LONGTOM]

Water injection has been around in different forms for decades.
A close friend of mine invented one type of it and yes big oil did buy him out for 1.7 mil and that was back in the late 70s.
I used water injection on my diesel pulling tractor to both cool the pistons but it also allows you to inject more fuel at the same time and increases compression.
With the injection, extra fuel from a drastically modified fuel injection pump, a monster turbo, bigger injection lines and injector tips along with stronger valve springs I was able to increase the net HP on my engine from a mere 150 to about 325 or a little better on the dyno.
We went from pumping about 175 CCs per 1000 stroke to over 840 CCs per 1000.
Boost went from around 23 lbs stock to on an average hard pull just a tad over 53 lbs.
Matter of fact, without water injection you can't increse a diesel anywhere near that much without melting the pistons.
 
 
LONGTOM

[blind ear]

Electronic fuel inj systems can be set to deliver any mix that a carburator can, application?
The fighter plane water injection was set up for one purpose, from talking to a assembler mechanic I knew. to escape in a tight situation. the engine was running pretty much wide open, it could only stand the seress for a limited duration of time. I don't know of any other possible applications it might have had.  That doesn't mean that there wern't any more. ear

[yellowtail3]

Water injection has been around in different forms for decades.
A close friend of mine invented one type of it and yes big oil did buy him out for 1.7 mil and that was back in the late 70s. LONGTOM

Did you know Tom Ogle, LONGTOM???

[Casull]

I believe the patents on these so-called miracle carburaters and such would have now expired, making them public domain.   

[KIMBER45]

Water injection has been around in different forms for decades.
A close friend of mine invented one type of it and yes big oil did buy him out for 1.7 mil and that was back in the late 70s.
I used water injection on my diesel pulling tractor to both cool the pistons but it also allows you to inject more fuel at the same time and increases compression.
With the injection, extra fuel from a drastically modified fuel injection pump, a monster turbo, bigger injection lines and injector tips along with stronger valve springs I was able to increase the net HP on my engine from a mere 150 to about 325 or a little better on the dyno.
We went from pumping about 175 CCs per 1000 stroke to over 840 CCs per 1000.
Boost went from around 23 lbs stock to on an average hard pull just a tad over 53 lbs.
Matter of fact, without water injection you can't increse a diesel anywhere near that much without melting the pistons.
 
 
LONGTOM

I know nothing about this, so I'll prove my ignorance by asking-Does the drastic increased in pressure have any negative effects on the engine ?

[blind ear]

For street cars at one time people were putting a small water tank and pump and spray nozel into the carb throat. some minor adjustments and the engine ran better and cooler. The epa banned it because of some polutant produced by the steam and combustion. Used on daily drivers. Mother Earth News had a couple of articles on it. Not a real drastic increase in pressure but overreving could be a problem if driving hard. Higher rpm's is how the aircraft used if I am correct. ear

[BUGEYE]

called my BIL last night and he enjoyed talking about his old chevelle.
it was a 1970 SS 454/450 with a hurst shifter "I have no idea what that meant".
it was terrifing to ride in that thing.  his youngest daughter has a new accord.  I haven't ridden it it, but he said it was nothing special, no better than his wifes camry.

[muznut 54]

Water injection is easy to make I ran one back in the 70s and 80s in a chevy 6cyl van but to get the best from it you need to boost your compression or install a turbo.

[Dixie Dude]

Patents may have expired, but if they were bought up and are still owned by oil companies or such, they will not be produced.  All vehicles now have fuel injection, which is more efficient than carbs.  However none of these patents were ever mass produced.  Some may not work now with electronics.  I think lighter materials like aluminum and plastic have made vehicles lighter and more efficient.  Then improving aerodynamics helps a little at high speed.  Now, it is either going to be diesels and/or hybrids, until a stable price of alternative liquid energy is achieved like algae oil, or diesel made from coal oil.  Price of oil will have to stay high or continue to go up before these come on line.

[muznut 54]

Most of the energy from fuel is wasted in the form of heat loss,radiator exhaust engine heat etc.

[Dixie Dude]

Yep, if they could develop some way to convert heat directly to electricity other than steam, this would help hybrids.  Working with the natural gas industry.  They have some unique ways to generate electricity.  They can take an old coal fired boiler, put a natural gas turbine (jet) engine in front of it.  The engine turns a generator in front of it, then the hot exaust from the burned natural gas coming out the back is diverted into the old coal fired boiler.  That produces steam and turns another generator.  They have doubled the electrical output from some of these converted plants.  Coal is about half the cost of natural gas, but it is offset by the capacity of a natural gas turbine/steam generator. It is also far less polluting.  I do believe that natrual gas should be ran in vehicles instead and use more nukes for generating electricty.  Thorium reactors should be used instead of uranium or plutonium, which do not melt down, can't be made into bombs, and the half life of the radioactive material in months instead of years.  They are not as powerful but are far less dangerous.

[Casull]

Patents may have expired, but if they were bought up and are still owned by oil companies or such, they will not be produced. 

 
 
If the patents expired, anyone could build and sell them.  Also, if they were patented, the plans are right there at the patent office.

[Cuts Crooked]

 

.
Not necessarily, and not if plans are bought,  hidden, or destroyed and don't make it to patent office...usually inventions are series of patents if the inventor can afford to patent...also patenting often lets the breakthru or invention 'out of the bag'...open to a slight change and overseas ripoff......some inventors choose not to patent right away.
.
..TM7

No...if the plans are not filed with the patent office, they are not patented.....period.

[Casull]

Not necessarily, and not if plans are bought,  hidden, or destroyed and don't make it to patent office...

 
 
Yes, if you actually read what I wrote, it would necessarily be true.  "If the patents expired" means that if patents were filed they would have expired.  Also, "if they were patented, the plans are right there at the patent office".  What part of that would be untrue?

[Dixie Dude]

I Googled some of these patents.  Lots of ideas were patented.  However, they may not work on today's fuel injected electronicly controled vehicles.  Cars today get a lot better mileage than they did in the early 70's.  I had a 1970 Monte Carlo that I bought in 73 used.  Had a 350 engine.  Got 11-13mpg.  At 55 mph a few years later I got 14.  Today a car with that much interior room is more efficient and gets at least in the upper teens to low 20's mpg.  One reason for SUV's that became popular in the 80's was they were built on truck frames.  Families wanted something big enough for everyone to ride in and have space for sports equipment or groceries.  Trucks had a lower mpg limit than cars and SUV's had the room and they were classified trucks.
 
Cars have gone back up in size somewhat but still get decent mileage now.   

[Casull]

Dixie Dude, I was referring to those stories about guys inventing 200 mpg carb's and stuff like that.