Author Topic: Blackhawk or Vaquero?  (Read 4324 times)

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Offline azmark

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2012, 01:22:35 PM »
Is bullet casting a valid way to save money on reloading costs?  It seems to be a costly venture and must take quite some time to recoup the initial investment in equipment.  Any thoughts on this?
Mark Dickinson
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Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2012, 03:09:55 PM »
I will get flogged for giving this answer, but here is how it worked out for me.  It depends on how you do your math.  If you do it in terms of the total amount spent on ammo per month, year, etc, you probably wont save a single penny.  However if you do the math in terms of cost PER ROUND, you will probably spend much less than half of what you currently do.  Let me explain please.  I still love to go out and shoot as much as I ever did.  However, I still spend as much money as I used to, but get to shoot a lot more rounds for the same cost.  For example, the cheapest .45 Colt I have seen locally in the last year was going for $30 per box of 20 or 25 rds.  That's a little over $1 per round.  I cast my own, and my lead is what I bought years ago at a steal.  If it had been any cheaper, they would have been paying me to haul it off, so I consider it free.  I wont bore you with the math, but my .45 Colt loads cost me $4.25 per box of 50, or 8.5 cents per round, and that is if I am using the expensive local bought primers instead of ordering online or driving 100 miles to pick them up for just over half the local price.  Now, the moulds cost varies depending on which brand you prefer, so I didn't figure that in, and I also dont figure in the "cost" of my time.  I just figure it keeps me out of the bars, jail, etc, etc.  Now don't take that as me saying it is cheap, but it is money spent on items you can reuse for as long as you take care of them, so it is a one time expense that will save you money in the long run in exchange for paying a higher price now. 
My ammo costs per round currently using cast (free) so just counts powder/primer and loading my own for a few calibers:
.45 ACP     7.1 cents
.45 Colt      8.5 cents
.38 special   6 cents
.357 mag    9 cents
.380acp     6 cents
.40 s&w   7 cents
.44 mag   8.5 cents
.30-30   15 cents
.308      19cents
.30-06    24 cents
.45-70    6 cents to 21 cents (depending on powder used)
.303 british   17 cents
You get the idea.  Doing that math, if it came to any decimal point, I just rounded up the cost to the next full cent.  But like I said, that is after you spend whatever the cost is of the moulds themselves and other assorted gear.  I also make my own gaschecks for the calibers above that need it, but my gascheck material costs me $14 for a roll big enough to make several thousand of them, but I haven't counted out how many and did not include the cost in the above calculations because I honestly have no idea what my cost is, but do know it is less than a cent each.  I figure pay once and cry once, then go shooting to make yourself feel better.

Offline azmark

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2012, 07:43:23 PM »
Since I posted, I did some Internet research.  20-1 alloy costs around 2.70/lb so with a 250 grain bullet that comes out to $96.  I can buy quality cast bullets at about $90 per 1000 with shipping of about $17.  That means I could save a penny a round to cast my own.  I don't see any upside here.  I can try out different factory bullets without having to buy molds.


Something is fundamentally wrong with this...I'm going to go on a mission to find wheel weights if I have to hit every Mom and Pop tire store and garage in the county.  America still exists, I just know it!!! 


It would be easier for me to find drugs than find scrap lead to recycle...it just ain't righ, I tell you.
Mark Dickinson
USAF, Retired

Offline Bitterroot Bob

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2012, 04:44:03 AM »
Howdy,
I have BH's, Old model Vaquero's and Colt-clones. I believe that my choice for a dedicated hog-gun would be an OM Vaquero in .45 Colt. The first load I ever put through my 4-3/4" .45 was a heavy 300gr SWC that hit POA @ 35 yards. It was a comfortable gun to shoot, too. Vaqueros have steel grip-frames, unlike the Blackhawks, which are aluminum alloy, so they have a little more weight.
I would improve the front sight by roughing up and re-blueing the face to reduce glare.
Everything I have heard and read about hog hunting indicates that it it is not conducive to deliberate marksmanship. A gun with fixed sights, regulated to one serious load, and a practiced hand would be a perfect setup.
 
Bitterroot

Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2012, 01:43:03 AM »
most ive EVER paid for lead is a buck a lb and that was for lynotype. You need to hop in your truck and go looking. Check every gas station and tire shop in the area for wheel weights. Anymore i find its about a waste to ask for them for free. Offer the guys there 25 bucks a buck or offer to buy them some beer. Really take care of them the first time. reach for your 25 bucks and give them 50 and ask them if they could possibly save more for you. You can also check your local salvage yard. they usually have all kinds of lead and the most ive seen them charge is a buck a lb. You can also put local add on craigs list wanting to buy lead. radiator shops have drippings that are 60/40 tin/lead which is very useful. Check with your local print shops. Lineotype printing is a thing of the past but some still have some lineotype and if the dont ask them if they know any printers who might have some. Heck you can buy it on here many times for a buck or even less a lb. I agree with you though if i had to pay 2 bucks or more a  lb id put my molds away.
blue lives matter

Offline azmark

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2012, 09:59:43 AM »
I've found WW's for a buck a pound online.  I started looking locally and had no luck yet although I've only checked three places so far.  They tell me it's illegal get rid of the lead unless it's to someone who's certified or licensed or something by the gov't to dispose of it.  I'm sure 'dispose' means sell for profit.  I'm all for recycling but isn't that what casting is, technically?
Mark Dickinson
USAF, Retired

Offline huntswithdogs

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 04:49:12 AM »
Az
The story you were told may hold true with some of the chain stores(Goodyear, Firestone and maybe WallyWorld). Not so much a govt policy as business policy. AMybe ya'll have a state policy in your area. You ain't in California are ya? Some of these franchise stores have weights provided by the franchise owners and THEY recycle. It may also be a "grease my palm and I'll hook ya up" policy also. I'd hit up the smaller tire stores or maybe even a dealership that does tires.

HWD

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 05:11:12 AM »
With the alloy content of wheelweights being so broad and uncertain , combined with the difficulty in just getting any, my advice to someone who is not already set up to cast, to just go ahead and buy their bullets. Especially if only shooting cast bullets in a small number of cartridges.
There are a number of commercial casters that do an excellent job at reasonable prices.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2012, 08:24:30 AM »
a car battery has a supply of lead . Commerical casters use it some say.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline azmark

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2012, 03:59:55 AM »
No, I'm not in CA.  I'm in AZ. 

I will keep trying to get the WW's.  I will definitely start with commercially cast bullets, though.  I'm open to suggestions as to manufacturers.  I know guys who buy from Friendswood and I am  looking at Rimrock.  Speer is a big name but theirs are pricier.  Tell me who guys like....
Mark Dickinson
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Offline Ranch13

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2012, 10:30:19 AM »
Cheycast, Missouri Bullet, Montana Bullet Works, Big Sky Bullets,Magnus, Leadheads and Dry Creek
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline Swampman

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2012, 11:00:17 AM »
I've owned many of both.  Unless you do Cowboy Action Shooting, I'd avoid the Vaquero.
 
Wheel weights are steel now.  Lead usually runs 60 cents a pound.  Try a scrap metal yard.
 
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2012, 04:17:05 PM »
So I was playing on the Ruger site.
And was looking at the Vaqueros.
In the Dealer exclusive section.  I think your answer lies there.
There are a pair of Bisley griped 44 Specials with adjustable sights.  One is a 5.5" and the other is 4 5/8"
the 44 Special should be enough for your standard hunting of deer and pigs with a 240 grain lead slug and the gun is a Vaquero with adjustable sights.
TA DA!  all your problems solved!  Hunting and target caliber, Vaquero, and adjustable sights.
I am counting and saving my change for one of the 5.5" models.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2012, 05:53:40 PM »
Nope not quite. By definition if it has adjustable rear sight it is NOT a vaquero. What those guns are is the flat top aka the original Blackhawk. I have two of them one a Bisley 44 Special and one a .45 Colt. Both mine are the 5.5" barrel guns.


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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2012, 03:43:45 AM »
Nope not quite. By definition if it has adjustable rear sight it is NOT a vaquero. What those guns are is the flat top aka the original Blackhawk. I have two of them one a Bisley 44 Special and one a .45 Colt. Both mine are the 5.5" barrel guns.
But it is on the Ruger site under Vaquero.  They labeled it a vaquero, not me.   ;D
I understand what you are saying.
How do you like yours?

Offline temmi

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2012, 08:04:40 AM »
I perfer Adjustable sight and the beefer frame for my 45 Colts... So I have a full size Blackhawk.
 
 
If I were more interested in SAS maybe a Vaquero.
 
 
but I'm a BH kinda guy
 
 
T
 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2012, 06:02:54 PM »
Yeah I know Ruger's site isn't perfect. I'm sure the confusion is that these days all Vaqueros are on the original Blackhawk frame size as are the flat top guns. That still doesn't make them Vaqueros if they have adjustable sights. I'd never have bought them without the adjustable rear sight.

I like my current Ruger guns very well. For a fellow who has put down Ruger as much as me that's saying quite a lot. They are very tight and have proper dimensions. They shoot great.

The Bisley flattop .44 Special is my favorite. I'm really enjoying it.

Quote
I perfer Adjustable sight and the beefer frame for my 45 Colts... So I have a full size Blackhawk.

I do as well. It's really a toss up tho whether I like my full size BH .45 Colt better than the flat top. I like both. Still I think if I had to pare down to one or the other I'd likely keep the flat top. If it were a Bisley like my .44 Special it would win hands down over the full size. I don't shoot loads hotter than a 250 at 1000 fps in mine.


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Offline painted horse

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2012, 07:14:25 PM »

 
Original Bisley Vaquero and the Accu Sport Bisley Black Hawk. Same frame, the top strap on the BH is noticeably thicker and the obviously larger sights. When you pick them up the BH "seems" much larger in the hand. Both rated for the same load data. The Vaquero handles better in my opinion. Both have been 45 colt "Rugerized", reamed, firelapped, and action jobs, the Vaquero by Bob Munden and the BH by a local smith. They're both good shooters.

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2012, 03:14:36 AM »
Get yourself one of the older Bisley Blackhawks with adj. sights and enjoy your hunting after you get use to it with full house loads.
Put a nice set of checkered grips on it if you feel you need a little more recoil controll as the Bisley will roll in your hand.
I have owned about all the various styles that Ruger has made over the years except the new style Vaqueros.
I don't really like the smaller frame on big bores even though I have smaller hands.
After over 30 years shooting them I went with a standard Bisley Blackhawk to build my custom on because I wanted the adj. sights.
Love the feel of a Bisley, love the sleek lines of the OLD Vaqueros, love the adj. sights and the extra strength of the OLD Blackhawks.
5.5" Octagon barrel with S&W style front sight and Bowen Classic adj. rear sight.
Trigger job, over size cylinder pin with locking screw, free spin cylinder, throats cut to .4525.
Loves a 255gr LBT hard cast over 12.5gr Hodgson HS6 for right at 1040 fps.
Had the stag grips custom made a little flatter on the left side and more rounded on the right to fit my hand better.
 

 

 

 

 
 
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Offline painted horse

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2012, 08:14:34 AM »
Longtom that is very, VERY, nice!!!!!!!!!

Offline S.B.

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2012, 05:53:37 AM »
To adjust fixed sights one must file the front sight height and turn the barrel slightly to adjust windage. Adjustable sights are simply a screw driver thing. Both things you should probably have a pistol smith do, at best this is only good for one load, whereas the adjustable can be adjusted for many quickly? Hope this clears things up?
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2012, 09:32:39 AM »
Nothing attractive about a Bisley and the recoil is just the same....get yourself a real six shooter.






"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline azmark

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2012, 10:09:08 AM »
I think I'll take the advice to go with adjustable sights.  I'm going to get a chance to shoot both the flattop 44 and the regular Blackhawk in 45.  That will help the decision.  I do want to handle the SBH some more again, though. 
Mark Dickinson
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2012, 06:48:08 PM »
To each their own but I will take a Bisley over a standard frame anytime for heavy calibers that will be loaded stout!
Recoil in lbs is the same but the way the two guns react to it is entirely different!
 
 
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"THE TREE OF LIBERTY FROM TIME TO TIME MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS".
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That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

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Offline bilmac

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2012, 04:17:55 AM »
Above in this thread batteries were mentioned as a source of lead. Be very cautious about battery lead. At least some of them have calcium alloyed in to make the plates stronger. This will make any lead you mix with battery lead almost worthless, it won't fill a mold. The batch I ruined was so bad I almost couldn't use it to make fishing sinkers.

Offline azmark

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2012, 05:51:08 PM »
Have any of you installed a different hammer in your blackhawk?  I like the one on the SBH better than the one on the BH.
Mark Dickinson
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2012, 11:34:33 PM »
I put one in this .45
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Gene R

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Re: Blackhawk or Vaquero?
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2012, 09:19:15 AM »
I personally wouldnt own a handgun with out adjustible sights other than for (ccw) However I have owned a number of blackhawks and can testify that they are good firearms. I know that the same goes for the vaquero but just dont like non adjustable sights.
My 2 cents