IMR 4227 vs H4227

[watkibe]

I know you should never use data for one powder with another, similarly numbered, powder.
So I wonder about this. I read that in Hodgdon's 2010 data magazine, they explained that any IMR4227 made in Australia (ONLY!) can be used with current H4227 data.
Does anyone have that 2010 data "book", or have you read of this elsewhere ?
Thanks !

[SHOOTALL]

Go to winchester powder data , it will have IMR and Hodgon powder data also. Then compare loads for yourself.

[watkibe]

Thanks Shootall, ya got that mostly right ! Hodgdon sells Winchester, IMR and Hodgdon Powders now. They show the data for IMR4227 as very like data for H4227, but not always identical, and they show the 2 powders side by side in the burning rate chart. But my studying on reloading says that never means you can assume they are identical and swap data willy nilly. That's why I'd like to find someone who says "I have that book in my hand, and it says its OK." I'd like it even better if he said I'll even mail it to ya to ease your overworked caution, haha!

[bigvarmnt]

I would just use the data on there website or in a recent manual. I printed all cartridges  I have and some I may get and put them in a 3 ring binder.

[SHOOTALL]

Thanks Shootall, ya got that mostly right ! Hodgdon sells Winchester, IMR and Hodgdon Powders now. They show the data for IMR4227 as very like data for H4227, but not always identical, and they show the 2 powders side by side in the burning rate chart. But my studying on reloading says that never means you can assume they are identical and swap data willy nilly. That's why I'd like to find someone who says "I have that book in my hand, and it says its OK." I'd like it even better if he said I'll even mail it to ya to ease your overworked caution, haha!

I was thinking of looking at a spefic load for each and see if they match.You can reduce the load by 10% and work up . BTW same powder from different lots burn at different rates , it would not suprise me if the burn rate of either could be faster depending on manf. lot # and year of production.

[Lloyd Smale]

All the newer h4227 in both imr and hodgdon cans is H4227 Both companys merged and they only make the one powder now and box it up in two differnt containers.

[SHOOTALL]

someone told me one was made in Canada and the other in Australia and they were still a bit different . Is that no longer true ?

[Lloyd Smale]

no more. If you looked at the old h4227 it was a grey colar and the imr was black. There was a slight differnce in the two. It allways seemed to me the h did better in handguns and the imr did better in rifles. Its all the same now though. Hogdon and imr are the same company and they streamlined production by eliminating redundant powders and this was the first example of that. I was told that if it hasnt happened allready it will soon be the same for 4350 and 4831 4198 and 4895

[1armoured]

I would say, take care,
even though most Hodgdon (who now own IMR) powders are made in Australia by ADI (Thales).


Earlier this year, ADI (Thales) in Australia advised the following;
"With regard to reloading using ADI Sporting powders. Please find an equivalence table for ADI and Hogdon propellants.
 
 These propellants are identical.
It should be noted that while IMR is part of Hodgdon, IMR and Hodgdon powders are not necessarily the same powder.
So H4227 is the identical powder to AR2205, but IMR4227 cannot be assumed to be identical.
 
 Extreme caution should be taken and loads should be worked up accordingly. Refer to our website at www.adi-powders.com.au or our 5th edition handloaders’ guide for more information, warnings and reloading safety."


ADI Powder - Hodgdon

 Trail Boss  - Trail Boss
 AS30N - Clays
 AS50N - International
 AP70N - Universal
 AR2205 - H4227
 AR2207 - H4198
 AR2219 - H322
 BM2 - Benchmark
 AR2206H - H4895
 AR2208 - Varget
 AR2209 - H4350
 AR2213H / AR2213SC - H4831 / H4831SC
 AR2217 - H1000
 AR2225 - Retumbo
 AR2218 - H50BMG


(I believe that some IMR powder containers are marked 'Made in Australia,
but I've never used any IMR stuff.)


I use ADI's AR2206H (equivalent to Hodgdon H4895)
and AR2205 (equivalent to Hodgdon H4227),
and use the same tables, (as guidelines) where I need to,
but I, as ever, rely on my own results and experiences, with my own equipment,  rather than some one elses !!!
I also use Hodgdons Lil'Gun in my .22Hornet with great success.


cheers,
SS

[tomme boy]

They no longer make any H4227 for sale. But this is what the people at Hodgon told me, All of the NEW IMR4227 is actually H4227. They even put graphite on it to look like the IMR powder.
 
Call them and they will explain it more as to load data and if you have old or new IMR.

[buck460XVR]

They no longer make any H4227 for sale. But this is what the people at Hodgon told me, All of the NEW IMR4227 is actually H4227. They even put graphite on it to look like the IMR powder.
 
Call them and they will explain it more as to load data and if you have old or new IMR.

This is the same that they told me. The H4227 brand has been discontinued and the new IMR4227 is the old H4227 formulation renamed. Must make sense to them anyway.........

[gypsyman]

The ammo/component manufacture's are trying to make things more simple, and cut costs. They did this with H110 and W296 a few years ago. When you have 2 powders that close, just makes sense to eliminate one. Just start your reloading close to the bottom of the chart, and work your way up. As you should do even when staying with the same powder, but have a new lot number, as they can change from one to the next. gypsyman

[charles p]

Don't think you can sub H4831 and IMR4831.  Maybe now but not 30 years ago.

[SHOOTALL]

no more. If you looked at the old h4227 it was a grey colar and the imr was black. There was a slight differnce in the two. It allways seemed to me the h did better in handguns and the imr did better in rifles. Its all the same now though. Hogdon and imr are the same company and they streamlined production by eliminating redundant powders and this was the first example of that. I was told that if it hasnt happened allready it will soon be the same for 4350 and 4831 4198 and 4895

Thanks , I agree about the handgun rifle thing. As of late been using Winchester powder mostly.

[Steve P]

The old IMR 4227 and H4227 were NOT exactly the same powder.  They didn't look the same and they didn't meter the same.
 
I am using IMR 4227 since Hodgdon discontinued H4227.  My loads came out same as far as most accurate worked up to the same weight of IMR as I was using of the H, however, accuracy is not quite as good.  It IS different.  (Two consecutively numbered FA 41 magnums made on same day and measured by Don Baker as nearly exact prove this to be true.)
 
Reading from the posts below, it is as if H4227 has risen from the dead.  Has it?  I have not seen any H4227 in local stores in probably 5 years or better.  I have not seen any ads in the magazines advising it's resurrection.  Is the data you are referring to merely there for folks who still have hoards of H4227, or is there indeed H4227 back on the market?
 
Steve

[buck460XVR]

 
Reading from the posts below, it is as if H4227 has risen from the dead.  Has it?  I have not seen any H4227 in local stores in probably 5 years or better.  I have not seen any ads in the magazines advising it's resurrection.  Is the data you are referring to merely there for folks who still have hoards of H4227, or is there indeed H4227 back on the market?
 
Steve

According to Hodgdon, H4227 was dropped from their line-up 3 years ago. Here is a reply I got from them when I asked about what data to use.

H4337 was discontinued about 3 years ago.  It was/is not interchangeable with IMR4227.  These two powders use different data.

 

Mike Daly

Customer Service Manager

Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

Hodgdon Smokeless Powder

IMR Powder Company

Winchester Smokeless Propellants

GOEX Blackpowder

..............as you can tell, it's easy to see how we are confused when the CS manager cannot even get the numbers right.

[Maryland Hunter]

I'm too lazy to leave my coffee and go check right now, but I believe that the two 4227s are a few spots from each other on the Sierra book's burn rate chart.
Having said that, I tried to find H4227 and could find it.(Now I see why, I wasn't aware that it was discontinued). I picked up the IMR and carefully worked up my load from there, and so far, it has been fine for me and my application.
 
MH
 

[Swampman]

This is a shame....I've always used IMR and Winchester powders.  Hogdon bottles up their powder and tells us it's the same or as good as....

[pme166]

As a heavy 4227 (IMR) user for the 357 maximum, my opinion is the following.  Old IMR4227 is gone.  Old H4227 is gone.  New H4227 is gone.  New H4227 has been packaged as new IMR4227.


So, the IMR4227 you buy today is actually the new H4227 that was available 3 years ago.