Murder under color of law - thug cops to be tried for murdering Kelly Thomas

[yellowtail3]

http://www.swrnn.com/2012/05/09/fullerton-police-officers-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-homeless-mans-death/
Two Fullerton police officers were ordered today to stand trial for the beating death of schizophrenic transient Kelly Thomas.
fficer Manuel Anthony Ramos, 38, is charged with second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter, while Cpl Jay Cicinelli, 40, is charged with involuntary manslaughter and excessive force in the beating last July 5 at the Fullerton Transportation Center. The 37-year-old homeless man died five days later when his family took him off life support.
The 38-year-old Ramos, a 10-year Fullerton police veteran, is free on $1 million bail, one of the highest ever posted in Orange County. Cicinelli, 42,
is free on $25,000 bail. They are both on unpaid administrative leave.

Ramos faces a potential sentence of 15 years to life if convicted of second-degree murder but only four years if convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Cicinelli faces a maximum sentence of four years in prison.

At the conclusion of a hearing that lasted more than two days, Orange County Superior Court Judge Walter Schwarm said “there is sufficient probable cause” to hold the officers over for trial.

Ramos and Cicinelli are due back in court for arraignment May 22.

The preliminary hearing was highlighted by the showing of a gripping videotape of the police confrontation with Thomas — which was captured on a surveillance camera at the Fullerton Transportation Center. Thomas can be heard pleaded for help from his father, while officers repeatedly strike him in what they called an effort to subdue the man.

In his closing argument, District Attorney Tony Rackauckas focused on Ramos’ threat to beat up Thomas if he did not comply with his orders.

Ramos, who was first on the scene about 8:30 p.m., responded to a call of someone trying to break into cars at the bus and train center. Officer Joe Wolfe — who has not been charged — showed up a short time later.

While Wolfe went through Thomas’ backpack, Ramos carried on a conversation with Thomas that was often filled with sarcastic barbs. Ramos swung his baton during the conversation, Rackauckas said, in a way that could be perceived as intimidating.

The district attorney conceded that Thomas was “being a bit of a jerk” to Ramos, but said Ramos “was being cavalier and arrogant.”

Ramos had Thomas sit down, which he did, but when Wolfe found mail in Thomas’ backpack addressed to someone else, the two officers discussed arresting him for receiving stolen property.

Ramos then started giving Thomas orders, which apparently confused him, prompting Ramos to say, “I tried to be nice” before he donned latex gloves and held his fists up to Thomas.

“Now you see my fists?” Ramos asked.

“Yeah. What about ‘em?” Thomas replied.

“They’re getting ready to (expletive) you up,” Ramos said.

“Start punching, dude,” Thomas responded.

“If you don’t (expletive) start listening,” Ramos answered.

Rackauckas argued the threat made Thomas fear he was going to get beat up, giving him the legal right to defend himself. Thomas tried to comply with Ramos’ orders after the threat, but complained he didn’t understand them, and ultimately got up to run, prompting Wolfe to strike him with his baton, followed by Ramos doing the same.

Cicinelli, responding to a call that the officers needed assistance, jumped out of his squad car and started to use his Taser.

Thomas did not give the officers any reason to fear him, Rackauckas said.

“(Ramos) felt no threat from Kelly Thomas,” he said. “At times he even had his (holstered) gun in Kelly Thomas’ face, right where he could reach it.”

Ramos should have had another officer arrest Thomas after he issued the threat, or he could have backed off the threat, Rackauckas argued.

Using the Taser gun once might be considered reasonable force under the circumstances for Cicinelli, Rackauckas said. But he shot Thomas with it multiple times and then used the butt of the gun to beat his face, Rackauckas said.

“He does not give him time to comply. He just zaps him again. Then he jumps on him and smashes his face with the Taser. Those aren’t my words, those are his words,” Rackauckas said, referring to Cicinelli  telling a fellow officer, “I just smashed his face to hell.”

Rackauckas said the video shows blood splattering in the air from Thomas’ face when Cicinelli hits him with the Taser.

Then referring to Ramos’ threat, he said, “There’s just no way in the world that’s lawful conduct. Is that implied malice? Of course it is.”

Defense attorney John Barnett, who represents Ramos, argued that his client had a right to detain and arrest Thomas. Furthermore, Ramos had a right to threaten Thomas, as well, Barnett argued.

[KIMBER45]

" TO PROTECT AND SERVE.'    What a bunch of punks. If convicted, they should have fun in prison provided by the other inmates. These cases are becoming much too common. 

[yellowtail3]

" TO PROTECT AND SERVE.'    What a bunch of punks. If convicted, they should have fun in prison provided by the other inmates. These cases are becoming much too common. 

Well, they're certainly seeing light of day more often than in the past... thank the Web, and small recording devices/digital cameras. Cops don't like either of them.
Here's a good editorial in subject of police thuggery:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/09/opinion/navarrette-police-brutality/index.html?hpt=hp_c2 - here is an excerpt:

San Diego, California (CNN) -- As evidenced by media stories
and public awareness campaigns, Americans have resolved to get tough on
bullying. In that spirit, it's time to send a message to bullies with
badges.


We need to tell police who prey
on the vulnerable: "No more! When you pile on a suspect and beat him to death,
we will treat you just like any other alleged criminal. We will arrest you and
prosecute you. And if convicted, you will go to prison for a very long time. We
will make an example out of you so that other police officers will think twice
before abusing their power."


The messenger could be the jury
that will hear the case against two police officers in Fullerton, California, a
city about 25 miles southeast of Los Angeles. A judge ruled Wednesday that the
officers will
stand trial in the beating death last July of Kelly Thomas, a 37-year-old
homeless man afflicted with schizophrenia.


Cpl. Jay Patrick Cicinelli is
charged with involuntary manslaughter and felony use of excessive force. Officer
Manuel Ramos faces the more serious charge of second-degree murder, because
prosecutors believe he took a more active role in the assault. Both officers
have pleaded not guilty.


This week, at the preliminary
hearing to determine whether enough evidence supports proceeding with a trial,
prosecutors aired a graphic video of the savage beating. The footage shows about
a half dozen officers punching and kicking and putting pressure on Thomas'
chest, firing electric shocks from a Taser stun gun, all to supposedly subdue a
suspect well beyond the point where he is resisting or capable of resisting
arrest.


Early on, Ramos appears to tell
the young man who is sitting on the ground: "You see my fists? They're getting
ready to f--- you up!" Another police officer is heard saying: "We ran out of
options so I got to the end of my Taser and I ... smashed his face to hell."


By the end of the video, Thomas
is lying in a pool of blood. According to prosecutors, the young man suffered
brain injuries, facial fractures, broken ribs and extensive bruises and
abrasions. He died five days later.


What we see in that 33 minutes of
footage, including a defenseless Thomas screaming in pain, saying he's sorry and
pleading for help, should never happen in the United States of America. When it
does happen, it can't be tolerated, justified, or excused.


That's coming from the son of a
retired cop. My father wore a badge for 36 years, and he has no stomach for
police brutality. In fact, about 20 years ago, when another piece of videotape
surfaced -- that of the Rodney King beating by police officers in 1991 -- I
remember my father telling me that, as far as he was concerned, those
out-of-control law enforcement officers wailing on King had ceased being cops
and become little more than thugs and criminals.








Video shows cops beating
homeless man

As it turns out, Thomas' father
is also a retired law enforcement officer. After his son died, Ron Thomas made
it his mission to make sure the story got out and would not be forgotten. He
used social media and the Internet to show the world what those officers had
done to his son, complete with graphic photos that he took at the side of Kelly
Thomas' hospital bed.


This is a good dad. But he was
also, apparently, a good cop who trained fellow deputies on the right way to
take down suspects. This is the wrong way. Thomas described the officers'
actions as nothing less than a "hate crime against the homeless and mentally
ill."


Last year, Fullerton city
officials offered Thomas nearly a million dollars to settle the case. He turned
it down, and instead pushed for a criminal trial.


This should bring some small
comfort to Ron Thomas. He needs it. He has to carry around with him for the rest
of his life that, as his son was fighting for his life, he cried out for his
father to protect him from these bullies. On the video, we hear Kelly Thomas
screaming: "Daddy, help! They're killing me!" As a father myself, those words
break my heart.


"Daddy, help! They're killing
me!"


He was killed. And now, if the
cops are convicted of this crime, they have to pay.

[Cuts Crooked]

Fascinating example of how a tiny percentage colors all.

This one is a prime example of police state mindthink....I'm curious if these guys juast get a slap or whatever.

I'm sure each and every one of you who believes this is representitive of LE in general is more than willing to do their jobs too! I'll also be checking on this one, in large part to see justice done, and in another part to learn how many of you went and applied for a LEO job so you can fix this perception of the LEO mind set.

[yellowtail3]

Fascinating example of how a tiny percentage colors all.

that said, police officers across the country ought to celebrate the fact that these guys were caught on camera, and that they are being held to account. They should mourn that it required sustained public protest to get this to happen.

A bit prob is that much of LE sees the world as 'us vs them' and circles the wagons whenever their own are caught behaving badly - and by behaving badly, I'm talking things that would get me shot or jailed. The single biggest factor in continued police abuses is the Blue Wall that permits it, and hides it.

[Cuts Crooked]

A bit prob is that much of LE sees the world as 'us vs them' and circles the wagons whenever their own are caught behaving badly - and by behaving badly, I'm talking things that would get me shot or jailed. The single biggest factor in continued police abuses is the Blue Wall that permits it, and hides it.

Ah! You know this because you are a LEO, right? Or are you just repeating the platitudes you've read elsewhere? "The Blue Wall" was an invention of Hollywierd in an attempt to make a movie or two somewhat interesting.

Not saying that this doesn't happen, but given the number of LEO interactions with their bosses (that would be the public) this sort of thing is so rare as to be almost non-existant. This in spite of those herre who try to make it sound like it's an ongoing, every moment thing. It just gets MAJOR attention on the rare occassions that it does happen.

[yellowtail3]

Ah! You know this because you are a LEO, right? Or are you just repeating the platitudes you've read elsewhere?

Definitely not; were I in LE, I probably wouldn't mention it, and would likely dismiss those who did as cop-haters and druggies, and as wimps afraid & unworthy to Wear The Badge.

"The Blue Wall" was an invention of Hollywierd in an attempt to make a movie or two somewhat interesting.

That is an understandable position for someone in LE, and is pretty much false. The term might be a hollywood/novelist invention,  but the reality is that LE misbehavior is abetted by otherwise decent cops who look the other way... which makes them enablers, and indecent.

Not saying that this doesn't happen...

Ah... so is there a tendency for LE to circle wagons and be less-than-forthcoming when it comes to cleaning bad apples in their own ranks, or is it a hollyweird invention? Which?

Like you, Cuts, I am glad these brutes got caught. Unlike you, I will say publicly that they would likely not be facing the same music, if it weren't for intervention of non-LE public.

[Cuts Crooked]

Unlike you I understand the number of times LEOs interact with the public, and realize that if your suppositions/delusions were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Now, once again TM, provide a link showing statistics to back up your over inflated egotistical claims.  It had better show that 50% or more of all LEO interactions results in outrageous/murderous endings? Otherwise we will have to assume that you can't back it up, and remember this is YOUR tactic I'm using here. I'll bet you can't come up with even a 1%!

[yellowtail3]

Unlike you I understand the number of times LEOs interact with the public, and realize that if your suppositions/delusions were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Alright. WAIT - IT IS NOT FAIR for me to attribute a position to you, Cuts, that you've not taken... so please give us your opinion:
1. Do you believe that the officers in question would be facing the same charge, if there's been no video, and no witnesses other than LE?
2. Do you believe that the sustained public protest had anything to do with the charges being pressed? Why or why not?

[Cuts Crooked]

Unlike you I understand the number of times LEOs interact with the public, and realize that if your suppositions/delusions were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Alright. WAIT - IT IS NOT FAIR for me to attribute a position to you, Cuts, that you've not taken... so give us your opinion:
1. Do you believe that the officers in question would be facing the same charge, if there's been no video, and no witnesses other than LE?
2. Do you believe that the sustained public protest had anything to do with the charges being pressed? Why or why not?

No the question is........do you?

My opinion: Like criminal that gets caught, yes. And given that; Yes to second part too. However I will admit that I do not know the local demographics, and attitudes toward local law enforcement

But the constant whining by some on this board against LEOs in general is sickening. I've commented before that some of you shoud get involved, get a LEO job, work to change the perceptions you carp about. But so far, no takers. Looks like hipocracy to me! Yerf willing to whine, but not willing to take on the responsibility.

Still awaiting the link showing a high percentage of murderous/brutal interactions with the public by LEOs

[yellowtail3]

No the question is........do you?

I think there is a very strong likelyhood that if there were not witnesses at the bus stop, and no video - and if the victim's father hadn't pursued this so hard, after being offered a million bucks by the city to shuttup... those guys would not be facing the same charges. Probably none. We'd be hearing how they had no choice, faced with a violent drug addict, or whatever.

I've commented before that some of you shoud get involved, get a LEO job, work to change the perceptions you carp about.

I could care less about perceptions; I concerned about humiliated, abused, and (some) dead citizens, violated under color by agents of the state who are not held to account.

[Cuts Crooked]

I've commented before that some of you should get involved, get a LEO job, work to change the perceptions you carp about.

I could care less about perceptions; I concerned about humiliated, abused, and (some) dead citizens, violated under color by agents of the state who are not held to account.

Well, I've suggested a possible means of recourse to that. Are you looking for that job in Law Enforcement yet? Of course, if you don't feel like you are up to the physical requirements, you can seek a job in administration and work from a position of real power.....or you can whine on the web, and do nothing but make claims you can't back up.

[yellowtail3]

Well, I've suggested a possible means of recourse to that. Are you looking for that job in Law Enforcement yet?

No, but I'll entertain offers. I'm fifty, and not real keen on self-importance & bossing others around, or busting kids for smoking weed... so LE may not want me.

Of course, if you don't feel like you are up to the physical requirements, you can seek a job in administration and work from a position of real power.....or you can whine on the web, and do nothing but make claims you can't back up.  

Is that the game - unless one is in law enforcement, then one is not qualified to speak in the public square on LE issues/performance? Or if one speaks out but does not sign up... their position is illegitimate and to be dismissed?
That is kind of like only pianists can critique a piano performance, only guitarists can judge guitarwork, or only cops are qualified to carry arms and judge their own. In short... just self-serving hokum. So, I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant. We'll see how this case plays out, Cuts, but I don't want a pissin' contest with you...

[Cuts Crooked]

Is that the game - unless one is in law enforcement, then one is not qualified to speak in the public square on LE issues/performance? Or if one speaks out but does not sign up... their position is illegitimate and to be dismissed?
That is kind of like only pianists can critique a piano performance, only guitarists can judge guitarwork, or only cops are qualified to carry arms and judge their own. In short... just self-serving hokum. So, I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant. We'll see how this case plays out, Cuts, but I don't want a pissin' contest with you...

Walk a mile dude, Walk a mile!

I see that attitude all the time around here. A Lot of that in the posts about the soldier facing trial for his outrageous behaviour overseas,  killing innocent civilians. Nothing self serving about it. But it is duly noted that not one of you will even consider it.

TM, hopeless!!!!!!! You can't back up your claims so you try to change the subject. It was good try, but not at all what was asked.........which you would belittle if it was done at your behest, like you have before. This is your game, I'd think you'd do better at it.

[Cuts Crooked]

Right out of TMs link:

University of Toledo law professor David Harris, who analyzes police conduct issues, says it will take time to determine whether the cases represent a sustained period of more aggressive prosecutions or the beginnings of a surge in misconduct.
The cases involve only a fraction of the estimated 800,000 police in the USA, says James Pasco, executive director of the National Fraternal Order of Police (FOP), the nation's largest police union.

And it would appear that the feds think that you "civilians" who make up jury pools are pretty stupid!

David Burnham, the co-founder of the TRAC database, says prosecutions appear to be increasing, but "more important" are the numbers of cases prosecutors decline.
Last year, 96% of cases referred for prosecution by investigative agencies were declined.
In 2005, 98% were declined, a rate that has remained "extremely high" under every administration dating to President Carter, according to a TRAC report.
The high refusal rates, say Burnham and law enforcement analysts, result in part from the extraordinary difficulty in prosecuting abuse cases. Juries are conditioned to believe cops, and victims' credibility is often challenged.
"When police are accused of wrongdoing, the world is turned upside down," Harris says. "In some cases, it may be impossible for (juries) to make the adjustment."

[eastbank]

the police can,t just say move on any more,with the phone cam,s,very small cam,s and the internet the bad acts of the police are very hard to hide today. do i think bad policing is on the rise?,yes. but it,s also brought to light more with all the new electronic,s availible to the civilian market.if there are no eye witnesses that will testify the bad acts may get swept under the rug or dismissed.the more light brought on the subject makes it very hard to cover up and i think that pisses off the police to no end. if you can,t stand the heat,get out of the kitchen.any officer involved in the killing of kelly  thomas needs to be tried in court. it seems the leo,s like to say we are all you have to protect you, and you just don,t know what we go thru.so a little unlawful killing may be alright in the whole scheme of things. eastbank.

[Cuts Crooked]

TM, hopeless!!!!!!! You can't back up your claims so you try to change the subject. It was good try, but not at all what was asked.........which you would belittle if it was done at your behest, like you have before. This is your game, I'd think you'd do better at it.

.
Any fraction is too many,,,its the % increase--like you were harping on in another thread. You got a simple link even you can understand. , I don't need to do research for you on commonly known issues... ...LEO brutality surging after 911 is a fact, not to mention endless islamo profiling seminars LEOs must endure....This is a well know fact and not arguable; and actually its your profession and I'm shocked you're not up to speed on this issue.  You're the guy that should be supplying the links--not me....but perhaps you're part of the Blue Wall and don't know it...like prosecutors declining to prosecute such cases.
.
.
....TM7

What a riot! The very article you referenced states that it's not positive. 
 
BTW, I'm WAY ahead of you. You won't educate yourself, you just whine the platitudes you find on your conspiracy theory boards, as if they were fact.
 
And hey, I'm using your own tactics against you, shouldn't give you room to grouse too much.
 
Now, show me the link or yer a phoney....pretty simple isn't it?

[KIMBER45]

Fascinating example of how a tiny percentage colors all.

This one is a prime example of police state mindthink....I'm curious if these guys juast get a slap or whatever.

I'm sure each and every one of you who believes this is representitive of LE in general is more than willing to do their jobs too! I'll also be checking on this one, in large part to see justice done, and in another part to learn how many of you went and applied for a LEO job so you can fix this perception of the LEO mind set.

Something for you to remember=You should use the same argument when you complain about other professions ex. educators, lawyers, etc. Funny how things change when it pertains to you and your profession that's being criticized.

[Cuts Crooked]

Something for you to remember=You should use the same argument when you complain about other professions ex. educators, lawyers, etc. Funny how things change when it pertains to you and your profession that's being criticized.

One little problem with your "point".......can you guess what that is?

[KIMBER45]

Something for you to remember=You should use the same argument when you complain about other professions ex. educators, lawyers, etc. Funny how things change when it pertains to you and your profession that's being criticized.

One little problem with your "point".......can you guess what that is?

Yep- because [ YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH .] Col. Jessep
 

[bobg]

   I think it happens more than you want to admit Cuts. I know a couple cops and some of the things they told me they have done were not called for. Can i prove this. Hell no. They sure aren't going to get on here and admit it.

[Cuts Crooked]

Posts #16 and #20 are examples of an abusive nature, which without doubt would spill over into one's work....such as making someone a personalized target or objective in a discussion....in hopes of entrapping or intimidating......this is an essential trait unfortunately selected for in the policing sciences...
 
..TM7

Abusive!?!?! YOU? have the audacity to claim someone else is abusive? That's hilarious.

Have you ever tried to pass the MMPI? Somehow I doubt it! But, once again, when you can't prove YOUR claim with a link......you duck & cover.

Oh come on Kimber.....it's so obvious that you shouldn't have to lower yourself to TMs standard tactics like that. Come on, you can figure it out....REALLY.

Bottom line here: The percentage of bad cops is lower than almost any other profession, but when one does occure, they get MAXIMUM attention, both from the press and from their peers. But this bunch is so radical, and possibly dangerous because of that very trait, that they scream to the heavens any time one does come up... Claiming all "cops are out of control". If that were so, how do really think the millions of interactions that cops have every day with their bosses (that's citizens to some) would rack up the death catagories? Hmmm? Can we get a figure projected from your claims that all cops are out of control? How many dead bodies a day do you suppose that would come too?  How about even if 10% are out of control? Come on, ya gotta have a number in your head that would be reasonable if your claims are even close to true.

Now, don't "cop out" on me l ike TM does.

[Old Syko]

To imply any need to have to be involved in le to have a viable opinion is simply asinine.  I don't have to stare at the sun to know it will eventually blind me if I do.  Such le actions as described in the OP's article are not only common but rapidly becoming rule of thumb.  Although more prominent in present times it is nothing new.  To today's le practically every interaction with the citizenry must be handled the same way.  First step is to dominate and control and the second step is to react to any citizen's response with authority and assume a position of authority.  This is why we have so many laws on the books to protect le in case of their overstepping their bounds and getting caught at it.


Could I be a cop?  Absolutely not!  You see, I don't have the mentality for it.  I couldn't possibly be so overbearing to the general public as is required these days.  I don't believe in sticking my nose in the lives of people I don't even know under the guise of doing a job or protecting people from themselves against their will.  This is why I have always wondered why the term protect and serve goes unfinished.  It should be completed as protect and serve the government interest since that would be much more honest.


I've known a lot of cops in my time and only a handful were real people with their heads screwed on straight.  Of this handful one was eliminated because he was too honest.  One died of cancer and yet another remains to this day to be a good and honest friend and his beliefs on this subject closely mirror my own.  Most any of the rest could be seen participating in a similar incident as depicted here at any time.   

[KIMBER45]

Posts #16 and #20 are examples of an abusive nature, which without doubt would spill over into one's work....such as making someone a personalized target or objective in a discussion....in hopes of entrapping or intimidating......this is an essential trait unfortunately selected for in the policing sciences...
 
..TM7

Abusive!?!?! YOU? have the audacity to claim someone else is abusive? That's hilarious.

Have you ever tried to pass the MMPI? Somehow I doubt it! But, once again, when you can't prove YOUR claim with a link......you duck & cover.

Oh come on Kimber.....it's so obvious that you shouldn't have to lower yourself to TMs standard tactis like that. Come on, you can figure it out....REALLY.

I'll stop now before your anger management problem  gets the better of you again.

[Cuts Crooked]

To imply any need to have to be involved in le to have a viable opinion is simply asinine.  I don't have to stare at the sun to know it will eventually blind me if I do. 

Didn't imply that..........just noted that none of you are willing to step and try. why does that bother you so much?

Not one........

And your "point" about staring at the sun is disingenious at best...
 

[Old Syko]

To imply any need to have to be involved in le to have a viable opinion is simply asinine.  I don't have to stare at the sun to know it will eventually blind me if I do. 

Didn't imply that..........just noted that none of you are willing to step and try. why does that bother you so much?

Not one........

That doesn't bother me in the least.  What does bother me is that anyone would think I couldn't have a viable opinion without participating in the profession.  I've already stated that I Wouldn't participate in the profession and have given some of the reason why.  I just don't buy into the belief that I must see through someone else's eyes to get a proper view.  I choose to believe the view from my own. 

[KIMBER45]

To imply any need to have to be involved in le to have a viable opinion is simply asinine.  I don't have to stare at the sun to know it will eventually blind me if I do. 

Didn't imply that..........just noted that none of you are willing to step and try. why does that bother you so much?

Not one........

And your "point" about staring at the sun is disingenious at best...

Everyone put the following in your memory banks- Before Cuts criticizes anyone or anything; he will step up and try it himself because this is what he believes in.

[r29l20]

Cops never do anything wrong.

[eastbank]

have you noticed that there are leo,s that always try to make it look like their victims asked to be beaten up or killed like kelly thomas, he was on pcp,was resisting arrest and the best one,the medical people caused his death and not the actions of the police. oh yea,you can never know what the jobs like with out being a cop. bull shi&. i think many of the abusers get pissed because they hardly ever fire their guns and try to find a reason to prove how bad they are, all dressed up in their swat black,s. well join the army and shoot and beat people,oh but they will be firing back and trying to kill you. maybe that,s what the super swat wantabe,s need a big brown spot in their shorts. many of us now civilian types here have fired more shots in anger on a goverment paid vaction than 99.9% of the police officers in america. eastbank.

[Cuts Crooked]

Buncha hypocrits.

Not once did I say that these things never happen, in fact agreed that they do, but most of you act like I deny even the tiny percentage of incidents that do happen... yet I've seen some of you use the very same arguments to bolster what YOU want to be true.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!