Murder under color of law - thug cops to be tried for murdering Kelly Thomas

[Cuts Crooked]

This is no trick question- just wondering. What would you consider the reason why some LEO cross the line and resort to physical violence when it isn't necessary ?  Would you say the inappropriate acts are committed by younger, older or across the board as far as age goes ?

Part 1:I'd have to say that, even though the percentage of "bad cops" is probably much lower than the percentage of "bad people" in the general population, they are still human. Perfection does not exist in the real world. It's something to strive for but it will always be unachievable.
 
Part 2: Younger.

[ironglow]

This is no trick question- just wondering. What would you consider the reason why some LEO cross the line and resort to physical violence when it isn't necessary ?  Would you say the inappropriate acts are committed by younger, older or across the board as far as age goes ?

Part 1:I'd have to say that, even though the percentage of "bad cops" is probably much lower than the percentage of "bad people" in the general population, they are still human. Perfection does not exist in the real world. It's something to strive for but it will always be unachievable.
 
Part 2: Younger.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
   Exactly what I was saying...

[ironglow]

This is no trick question- just wondering. What would you consider the reason why some LEO cross the line and resort to physical violence when it isn't necessary ?  Would you say the inappropriate acts are committed by younger, older or across the board as far as age goes ?

Part 1:I'd have to say that, even though the percentage of "bad cops" is probably much lower than the percentage of "bad people" in the general population, they are still human. Perfection does not exist in the real world. It's something to strive for but it will always be unachievable.
 
Part 2: Younger.

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
  Exactly what I was saying....

[eastbank]

haveing a bad police officer is not like haveing a bad plumer,barber, yard man, paper boy or store clerk,they can ruin your day a bad officer can ruin your life. and please tell me why its hard to teastify aganest a law breaking follow officer and not a law breaking civilian, they both are breaking the law. we all are to have equal protection under the law. and not haveing the law applided differently because your a inforcer of the law. do you not swear to up hold the law? give me a break(no body is perfect),who came up with that one. we all know that, the not prefect ones are the ones you should be getting rid of and not protecting when they get out of line. who puts out the press releases after some offices are caught breaking the law? they would realy be funny to read,if not for the fact that some one got hurt or killed. eastbank.

[Cuts Crooked]

haveing a bad police officer is not like haveing a bad plumer,barber, yard man, paper boy or store clerk,they can ruin your day a bad officer can ruin your life. and please tell me why its hard to teastify aganest a law breaking follow officer and not a law breaking civilian, they both are breaking the law. we all are to have equal protection under the law. and not haveing the law applided differently because your a inforcer of the law. do you not swear to up hold the law? give me a break(no body is perfect),who came up with that one. we all know that, the not prefect ones are the ones you should be getting rid of and not protecting when they get out of line. who puts out the press releases after some offices are caught breaking the law? they would realy be funny to read,if not for the fact that some one got hurt or killed. eastbank.

Wow! How does one answer as tirade like this one?   Briefly, Didn't say it was hard, said it was not pleasant.
 
Ok Mr. Christ almighty.....which is what you seem to be implying concerning perfection Ain't no cops claiming to be Christ. You might think that you are perfect, but the rest of the world may have a slightly different view.

[ironglow]

haveing a bad police officer is not like haveing a bad plumer,barber, yard man, paper boy or store clerk,they can ruin your day a bad officer can ruin your life. and please tell me why its hard to teastify aganest a law breaking follow officer and not a law breaking civilian, they both are breaking the law. we all are to have equal protection under the law. and not haveing the law applided differently because your a inforcer of the law. do you not swear to up hold the law? give me a break(no body is perfect),who came up with that one. we all know that, the not prefect ones are the ones you should be getting rid of and not protecting when they get out of line. who puts out the press releases after some offices are caught breaking the law? they would realy be funny to read,if not for the fact that some one got hurt or killed. eastbank.

Wow! How does one answer as tirade like this one?   Briefly, Didn't say it was hard, said it was not pleasant.
 
Ok Mr. Christ almighty.....which is what you seem to be implying concerning perfection Ain't no cops claiming to be Christ. You might think that you are perfect, but the rest of the world may have a slightly different view.

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
  Cuts;
   I have declined to answer that fulmination for the exact reasons you cited. For truly inquiring persons, certain answers might suffice.  For persons holding a preformed, overwhelming grudge..no reasonable answer will be understood.

[Cuts Crooked]

Yer right IG, her probably doesn't even see what he is saying. Just opens up and out it rolls. Can't reason with that.........which is why we have LEOs 

[Old Syko]

What CC and IG don't seem to comprehend is the fact that we as citizens don't expect anything but equality in the treatment of infractions.  Since le expects respect to be given without question why should we not expect the same. Just last week we had a local le who had been convicted of killing his wife sentenced to serve only months for what would have gotten a citizen life or worse.  We have 3 jailers that were found guilty of beating a prisoner without due provocation.  The taxpayers of the county are held responsible for restitution and not the offending parties.  We constantly see le driving at high rates of speed when not on duty and at times with their families in the car.  Such things as this are what turns law abiding citizens against le.  Nowadays such things are not done by only "tiny" percentages of these people as CC states or we wouldn't here of yet another incident or multiple incidents on an almost daily basis. 


BTW, the "blue wall" is not a creation of Hollywood since it has always existed.  It was merely given a name by them.

[ironglow]

I will never supportLE whae they do wrong . Egregious acts such a Old Syko mentioned, when proven should be punished fully.  I just don't agree with cherry picking a few cases and trying to "broad brush" all LE as if they are regularly guilty of what some few have done to the extreme.
   My experiences with LE have been relatively cordial.  Of course, if for instance I am stopped on the highway, I don't come off with a chip on my shoulder.  I don't start accusing them of all kinds of abuse of authority...simply because I cannot think of a better way to get a ticket..or two..or three..than to start mouthing off.
 
   I readily admit that if one is accused of a genuine crime and taken in, he should not talk without legal advice..because from there on, the "justice system" is geared for conviction.  A young DA or DA assistant wants more "notches in his gun" so he/she may "go for blood".
  Lawyers for prosecution think differently than the rest of us..we think in "moral" terms, they think in "legal" terms. Most often these two are at polar opposites.

[eastbank]

i don,t have to be perfect and my fault,s are meny,but they are not going to get any one hurt. but i would like the people who have the power of life and death over me to be as perfect as can be, but by allowing and covering up bad police work it lowers the bar for justice for every one. c.c, its nice that you think  we need leo,s because of a post that doesn,t agree with your view of the world, it reminds me of pre war germany. do you sleep with hobnail boots on. eastbank.

[scotsman]

I will turn 55 years old in November. I can certainly tell a big difference in LEO tactics and attitudes now and when I was a young man. I believe if you are close to my age and stop and think about it most everyone can. I don't know what has been the cause, probably a combination of many things. I know that in even casual contact with LEO's I have been treated with less respect with no reason that I can discern. I think a whole lot of what turns average people off to LEO's is that lack of respect. Maybe departments should look at focusing some training on that problem it wouldn't cost a lot and it surely couldn't hurt anthing. As for the original post those LEO's that engage in such behavior should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and not protected by the department or their union.

[ironglow]

  from eastbank;
  "  its nice that you think  we need leo,s because of a post that doesn,t agree with your view of the world, it reminds me of pre war germany. do you sleep with hobnail boots on. eastbank."
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
  First off: Thanks eastbank, for that brillint, cutting edge statement ! 
  Second, if you think the bad LEOs are rotten, you haven't seen anything yet ! Consider what happens if Obammy gets re-elected and institutes his "brownshirt army"!  "You ain't seen nothing yet!!" 

[yellowtail3]

I will turn 55 years old in November. I can certainly tell a big difference in LEO tactics and attitudes now and when I was a young man. I believe if you are close to my age and stop and think about it most everyone can. I don't know what has been the cause, probably a combination of many things.

I believe I know the answer, so I'll field this one: Biggest single reason is the War on (some) Drugs, and the militarization of police that has come with it.The post-9/11 suck-up to gov't authority has exacerbated things.

If anyone has a better theory, I'll be glad to hear it.

[ironglow]

I will turn 55 years old in November. I can certainly tell a big difference in LEO tactics and attitudes now and when I was a young man. I believe if you are close to my age and stop and think about it most everyone can. I don't know what has been the cause, probably a combination of many things.

I believe I know the answer, so I'll field this one: Biggest single reason is the War on (some) Drugs, and the militarization of police that has come with it.The post-9/11 suck-up to gov't authority has exacerbated things.
 
If anyone has a better theory, I'll be glad to hear it.

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
  Could be, but the best way for concerned citizens to handle this is to quit buying & using illegal drugs and start turning in those who do !
   Probably the greatest breach of LE decency were perpetrated at Waco and Ruby Ridge.  The fact the perpetrators were not prosecuted falls back onto the respective attorneys general.  Just as today, we have an attorney general who is covering for a very egregious action by his officers who have provided weapons to crime syndicates which have resulted in at least 2 American officer's deaths and hundreds of Mexican deaths...  And the attorney general is prosecuting the state of Arizona which wants to keep our borders as borders..
 
   http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/05/14/mexican-drug-cartels-in-fight-over-drug-route-4-decapitated-bodies-found/
  Two major players in the linked scene are the ones who have armed the cartels and those who purchased the crap they peddle.

[Old Syko]

  Could be, but the best way for concerned citizens to handle this is to quit buying & using illegal drugs and start turning in those who do !
 

Oh please don't go there.  Is this not what happened in Germany through the 30's and 40's?  Rather than repeat the mistakes of the past, let's learn from them.  If we're going to revert to such indiscretions as turning in our neighbors the game is already lost.


As far as drug laws go, we don't want to forget the same money driven individuals who support these laws and their enforcement are the ones who implemented the laws to begin with.  Wonder Why?

[yellowtail3]

  Could be, but the best way for concerned citizens to handle this is to quit buying & using illegal drugs and start turning in those who do !

Oh please don't go there.  Is this not what happened in Germany through the 30's and 40's?  Rather than repeat the mistakes of the past, let's learn from them.  If we're going to revert to such indiscretions as turning in our neighbors the game is already lost.

Sieg Heil.

[Cuts Crooked]

Well........I have to say that SOME in this bunch has given perfect examples of why SOME LEOs grow an attitude.

[guzzijohn]

I tend to agree that the drug war and 911 has made LE into more of a military attitude, not good. I will also agree that many LEO need a lesson in respect. It is a two way street. I was once mistaken for an armed robbery suspect. The good news was that I was cleared before being taken downtown. I can fully understand how that happens at times. I complied exactly as ordered, did not say a word except when asked a question and I replied in a calm and polite manner when I spoke. But you know, I would have left that scene with a much better attitude toward LEOs if I had not been so roughly handled, if they had not bent my glasses frame while slamming my head down on the trunk of my car and if they would have taken a bit of time to explain what was happening and a "sorry for your inconvenience" instead of nothing but a "you can go" would have gone a long ways. This is just one example of many things like above I have witnessed LEOs do.
GuzziJohn

[yellowtail3]

Well........I have to say that SOME in this bunch has given perfect examples of why SOME LEOs grow an attitude.

Insufficient obeisance?
 

[Old Syko]

Well........I have to say that SOME in this bunch has given perfect examples of why SOME LEOs grow an attitude.

2 way street.

[Cuts Crooked]

Well........I have to say that SOME in this bunch has given perfect examples of why SOME LEOs grow an attitude.

2 way street.

Yup! But obviously some are more aware of that than others.

[eastbank]

why would a police officer get a attitude if the stop don,t go the way he thought it should? because you don,t want to talk to him and don,t answer the things he ask about. at a traffic stop long ago,i produced all the papers needed,but would not play 40 questions with him. and told him just write the ticket(i was speeding and it was a good ticket) and let me be on my way. but no he wanted to know where i was and where i was going(2:30 pm) and if he could search my car. i told him where i was and where i,m going is none of your concern and no you can,t search my car,all in a calm voice. well i got cuffed and stuffed for about 15 minutes untill several other officers got there, i don,t know what was said to him,but i was left go right away and told to be on my way. i know that don,t sound like much compared to what has happened to others but it was a wake up call for me. i got cuffed and stuffed on the personal whim of that officer and not for any other reason. eastbank.

[yellowtail3]

What happened to eastbank isn't all that uncommon. Police do not like to be told 'no', even when they've asked the questions.
 
NEVER let them search your car. If they say, "We'll get a warrant and have the dogs out here!" then just smile and say... nothing. Roll your window down just enough to slip lic through and talk, and keep your doors locked. If they make you get out, lock the doors behind you. Do not give them the keys.
 
They won't like this, preferring a quick kow-tow to an American Citizen. But it's the right thing to do - isn't it, Cuts?
 
I've posted it many times, but it's always worth reviewing: DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING IF THEY START QUESTIONING YOU. No, it is not their business where you have been and where you are going. Telling them will not get you out of a ticket or arrest.
A review, class:

[Old Syko]

A lot of how we treat one another depends on attitude from both sides in most cases.  When approached by le with the tacticool appearance going on, I immediately clam up.  He needn't bother asking questions.  If the guy is wearing a smile and seems easy going I'll be much easier to get along with but I'm still not going to submit to any search or answer intrusive questions.  As an example, I went into a local drugstore just the other evening and picked up a bottle of bourbon.  Upon leaving the store there was a cop standing there talking to someone.  He looked at me and said "planning a big evening"?  My response, with a smile, was "Nah.  This is just for the drive home."  Could have been wrong but we both new the truth.  With either a poor presentation on my part or a misinterpretation on his part this could have gone sour quick. The thing is, I will not show fear.  Nor will I accept a 3rd degree for no reason. 

[ironglow]

What happened to eastbank isn't all that uncommon. Police do not like to be told 'no', even when they've asked the questions.
 
NEVER let them search your car. If they say, "We'll get a warrant and have the dogs out here!" then just smile and say... nothing. Roll your window down just enough to slip lic through and talk, and keep your doors locked. If they make you get out, lock the doors behind you. Do not give them the keys.
 
They won't like this, preferring a quick kow-tow to an American Citizen. But it's the right thing to do - isn't it, Cuts?
 
I've posted it many times, but it's always worth reviewing: DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING IF THEY START QUESTIONING YOU. No, it is not their business where you have been and where you are going. Telling them will not get you out of a ticket or arrest.
A review, class:

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
   
  I generally agree with all you say here.  There is good reason to not offer more info than necessary because as I said earlier in this thread..prosecutors are looking for more notches in their handgrips.  When they say"can and will be held against you"..don't think they are kidding.
  Where I depart a bit is when a guy keeps his doors locked, only allows an inch or so for communication, and refuses a reasonable search request..that is likely to raise suspicions... can't really blame the cop for wondering.  Normally I could care less if they want to search my car, but of course..I've never had an officer suggest such a thing.
   Perhaps if I knew an officer or dept was severely anti-gun and I had one (legal) in my vehicle, I may be inclined to deny.  But then, one must concede that if the officer has to go as far as a search warrant..he's going to "throw the book" at ANY infraction he may find.
   
       Old Syko says when a LEO approaches him who looks like he has much more gear on than his dept reccomends..he tends to clam up.  I can see the wisdom in that; if an officer is inclined to "over dress" he/she may be inclined to over-react.
 
  All in all, some here seem to have a lot more problems with LE than I do.  Last time I was stopped by a cop and ticketed was about 12 years ago (about 48 in a 40 zone).  I actually paid a pricey "parking" ticket.  I was stopped again about 4 years ago..with respectful, polite conversation both ways..no ticket. .

[Singleshotsam]

My process is simple.  If the officer is kind and courteous when he approaches my vehicle I'm kind and courteous to him.  He's just doing his job and doesn't need an a-hole screwing up his day.  I will share idle talk with him and if he wants to know where i've been it's fine with me. 
 
On the other hand, if an officer is rude and disrespectful to me then I will go out of my way to be well within my rights .  This involves me not giving out any information that doesn't involve a yes or no answer.  He's going out of his way to do his job poorly.  I also always let him know i'm writing down his name and badge number and tell him to expect me to call his supervisor. 

[Old Syko]

IG why would you even consider consenting to a search of your vehicle under any circumstance?  As citizens we do have certain rights and le is doing nothing more than trying to circumvent those rights by even asking.  Especially since you are squeaky clean and have given no reason for probable cause.  What about the dirty cop such as the OP shows who wants to show his strength and plants an item in your car then immediately finds it so he can take everything you have.  Don't forget, his main job is gaining notoriety by showing force to gain revenue generation.


BTW just so you know, I seem to get a speeding ticket once about every 10 years.  World class criminal.  I've worked with my 1 rational acquaintance who is le to help some of his new guys train.  This is the best way to educate since a number of them always showed up the first day sporting their finest tacticool gear, got their backsides handed to them and showed up the second day in raggedy shorts and t shirt the next.   

[guzzijohn]

Here is my take from experiences in 56 years, mostly in Kansas.


State troopers are by far the most professional, respectful, polite, reasonable but take no crap LEO.


Sheriffs and deputies for the most part reasonable to deal with. Some great. In some ways have the toughest job in my opinion due to large territories and usually working alone. Have to deal with a very wide range of problems and incidents. Most display  lot of common sense.


Police seem to be from another law enforcement planet. Yes there are very good ones but the larger towns and cities seem to have a lot of poor attitude, macho, militaristic, us (the cops) against them (public) attitudes and have forgot all about the "serve" part. Small towns have some very good LEOs but many towns have poorly trained "Barneys" or are just revenue generators for the town.
My two cents worth.
GuzziJohn

[Swift One]

Cuts crooked,  my job in the Indiana Dept of correction has me interacting with ALOT of police officers in the great lakes states.  Rest assured, in this region, the "us vs. them" thug mentality is alive and well.  Some of the old timers are pretty nice, but the younger ones- well- let's just say they love the power that has been given to them.

[dukkillr]

People don't just happen into jobs.  People who tend to like working outside might become farmers.  People who tend to like science might become chemists.  People who like to argue might become lawyers.  Are there exceptions?  Of course.  Is it ignorant to suggest that personality doesn't play a roll in career selection?  Of course.
 
So what do people who desperately want to impose their own will on others become?  Maybe throw in a few people who always liked beating people up as long as there was significant power disparity?  Some of the paramilitary types who dream of kicking doors down?
 
As we are regularly told, the job is hard.  The pay is not so great.  In some places it takes a surprising amount of education to get the job.  Why would anyone want to do that?  Oh yeah, the power...  My god they love the power... 
 
The solutions are simple, but politically very difficult.  At least in this part of the country, their unions are fairly powerful, and get bi-partisan support.  Republicans because, as you can see in comments above, being "pro-cop" is somehow a conservative value among some, particularly if you're older.  And Democrats because they are blue collar unions.