Author Topic: WW2??  (Read 545 times)

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Offline 1911crazy

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WW2??
« on: January 31, 2004, 03:09:19 AM »
The Japanese really lost the war because of bad weapons which was really why they were overpowered by us.  Do you think the Germans were too?? Most were using bolt actions well 100% of the japanese and like 50% of the germans.  Do you think they were out gunned and if it was even ground with everyone the same weapons the outcome would be different? I'm sure our leadership is better trained(westpoint) If the russian mosins are more accurate than the german mausers did that change the tide of the war for them?  Ever wonder this?
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Offline Stuffy25thIA

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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2004, 05:24:22 AM »
Think we just out produced them, they couldn't keep up with supply and demand.  Also the USA wasn't being bombed 24 hr. a day like their country's were.
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Offline mac266

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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2004, 05:32:22 AM »
Pard,

Every historian I have read (and I have a history degree) argues that the Germans had a vastly superior military to ours.  Technology was better (better tanks, small arms, air plans, even the first jet powered fighter plane).  The personnel were better trained and more motivated - they were fanatical believers in a cause they had been brainwashed into supporting.  

You argue that West Point makes better officers.  I'll argue that one with you all day, probably because I recieved my commission from ROTC.  I've seen / known / worked with many officers who were commissioned from West Point, ROTC, and OCS.  It's hit and miss as to who the good ones are.  There are good ones and bad ones from all three.  Having that ring doesn't make an officer better.

In any event, it is a widely known fact that the U.S. Army's modern infantry and armor tactics were invented by Field Marshal Irwin Rommel - aka the "Desert Fox."  The Americans realized that the German tactics were better than ours, so we adopted them.  Read the U.S. Army's FM 7-8:  The Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad.  Then read "The Desert Fox" about Rommel.  

No, their army was much better.  They were not out-gunned, they were outnumbered.  Take, for example, armor.  On average it generally took 3 American Sherman tanks to destroy 1 German Panzer, because the Panzer was so much better.  So, instead of making a better tank, we built 3 times as many as the Germans had.  We overwhelmed them with numbers.

Another weakness of the Germans was their logistical system (supply, transportation, medical, maintenance).  I have a lot of interest in this area because I am a logistician for the Army (Ordnance).  Here is one example:  Despite having better equipment than us, the Germans were unable to keep their equipment in the battle.  Everything mechanical will break, especially when used under the strains of combat.  But, the German equipment was largely made of custom-fitted parts; they were only somewhat interchangeable (required final finishing / fitting, etc.).  That extra work took time, tools, and manpower - which they did not have because we were overwhelming them with numbers.  

Many things contributed to their defeat, and I fear I am oversimplifying, but I have laid out my case in general terms.

As far as Japan goes, we nuked them...twice :)
MAC

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Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2004, 11:16:51 AM »
MAC awesome answer. Please don't take my "westpoint" personal I understand there are good and bad leaders and not the best come from westpoint.   So our industrial mite actually over powered them.  Our leadership(president) did make mistakes in using information, he didn't trust his own people, I forget what they called a group like the CIA back then but it did get our airborne into a german assualt in the arden.  Which maybe could of been avoided if he listened that the germans were regrouping to attack.   Our guys did catch hell there.       BigBill

Offline jgalar

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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2004, 12:03:41 PM »
Superior Allied air power, Russian winters and long German and Japanese supply lines. The Allies ruled in the logistics area. Didn't do bad in intel, artillery and other areas also.

The German tanks didn't last long on the western front when the weather was clear :wink:

Offline Snowshoe

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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2004, 01:00:38 PM »
To read this thread, you would think the Americans were the only ones that fought the Germans, and Japanese. A lot of brave soldiers from other counties laid down their lives long before the Americans where forced into the war.
Snowshoe

Offline mac266

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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2004, 05:55:10 PM »
Jgalar, you're right about intelligence and artillery.  In the intelligence arena, of course, there are the famous stories about the Navajo "Code Talkers" (NOT "Wind Talkers" as they were depicted in the movie of the same name).  They simply spoke their native tongue and the Germans could not decipher it (because it's not a written language).  There were also many successful deception campaigns.  Ever seen the movie "The Longest Day?"  It has the best Hollyweird depiction of the deception campaign at Normandy that I've ever seen.  There were others, too.

In terms of artillery, I fear, we were superior only due to numbers, just like with armor.  

As far as air power is concerned, we were again at a disadvantage in terms of technology.  The German aircraft were more durable and manueverable than ours, and consistently defeated our pilots in one-on-one encounters.  In 1944 they introduced the first jet-powered fighter plane which left the allied soldiers awestruck.  Again, the only reason we maintained air superiority was through numbers - we didn't allow any one-on-one encounters because we flooded the sky with planes.  There's a certain quality in quantity.

As far as supply lines are concerned, I have to disagree.  It was not the length of the supply lines that screwed them up; it was their logistical system.  Think about it in terms of pure geography:  The Americans had to move supplies all the way across the Atlantic, which was patrolled by German submarines and other ships.  The Germans were often successful in destroying a supply ship along with its cargo.  However, once again, we sent so many supplies the Germans couldn't possibly destroy enough to halt our logistical system.  

The problems with the Germans' logistical system were internal.  I outlined in my first post the problem with semi-interchangeable repair parts.  Once something broke, it remained broken for a long time.  A tank that won's shoot or move is worthless.  Whereas, the Americans were able to repair things very quickly and return them to the battle.  In addition, Hitler did not see the need to commit his money to things like supply trucks when he could buy tanks.  This is a common mistake with dictators like Hitler (actually, Hussein did the same thing.  That was one of the reasons we defeated him so easily this time:  He had a lot of tanks, but virtually none of them were completely operational due to a poor logistical system.  His troops were starving and lacking medical supplies, fuel, etc. before we even started bombing them).  Hitler also had a problem getting fuel, medical supplies, food, potable water, etc. up to his front line troops.  The system was broke, but it was not due to the length of the supply line.  Of course, one could easily argue that the Germans were fighting on two fronts.  Certainly that strained the already-broke logistical system.  However, the Americans were fighting on two fronts, too, and both of them involved transporting supplies over huge expanses of oceans.

Snowshoe mentioned that other soldiers fought in the war, too.  Of course they did - that's why it's called WORLD War II.  In my defense, however, I would like to point out that the allied nations were under the command of American forces - they were essentially American forces, because Ike had the authority to use them as he saw fit, just like with his own forces.  That is why he was given a fifth star ("General of the Armies").  He was their commander.  Even today the senior ranking person in the military - The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff - is only a 4 star general, and the people who work for him are 4 star generals.  He does not get a fifth star because he does not command troops from other nations.
MAC

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Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2004, 03:55:44 AM »
Quote from: Snowshoe
To read this thread, you would think the Americans were the only ones that fought the Germans, and Japanese. A lot of brave soldiers from other counties laid down their lives long before the Americans where forced into the war.


Yes your right I didn't cover the rest who pitched in with their lives both the other  countries and the under grounds who battled with us.  I can remember my dad telling me they were working 24/7 making parts for the war.  We were an industrial manufacturing might back then.  One problem we have right now is our supply lines can't keep up with our armor our tanks move so fast thru each battle with the accuracy and speed our supply trucks need turbine engines too. This was a problem back in the '91 gulf war.                        BigBill

I'm sure happy to see my 155mm howitzers that I built and the parts in the M1 Abrams worked flawlesly.  Funny back in the ealy 80's I was rebuilding machines that have been in mothballs since WW2 one was for making the breeches and I have no clue what it was for.  The two fastest machines I ever built was for Chrysler tank(M1 Abrams) they made the upper and lower bearing races for the turret.   The other machine I made was for the tank engine main rotor the orginal machine purchased for this operation was a Japanese machine that couldn't cut the titanium rotor without screwing it up.  Our machines made here were heavy duty metal hoggers I have seen my lathes make cuts 1" wide X 3/16" thick X 5" chips and come out like popcorn.  The older machines are more rugged this is why the US Army was rebuilding the WW2 stuff they were reliable mechanical machines.  Of course now castings are made so close tolarences that heavy metal hogging isn't required anymore. (sometimes)

Offline Jack Crevalle

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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2004, 10:53:17 AM »
I don't think that the Japanese had inferior weapons to us, certainly not at the begining of the war. They had the Zero fighter that could out-climb, out-run, out-turn anything that we had in the Pacific at the begining of the war.   Their torpedos were larger and had a greater range than ours. Ours were tested once in the 1920's by firing only two with one failing to explode and that's what our ships, PT boats and submarines went to war with. They had more aircraft carriers and their battleships were faster, larger and had bigger guns. The Ariska rifle was judged after the war to have a stronger action than any other bolt action rifle in the conflict. Our marines began the war with a 5 shot bolt action and were not issued sub machine guns.

The Japanese were beaten for the most part because we began commerce raiding with our submarines. The Japanese held to the notion of the "fleet submarine" that of the submarine being an adjunct to a fleet as a scout vessel. They also concentrated on trying to sink military rather than commercial vessels with their submarines.

The Japanese pilots flew until they got shot down and were not rotated back to the homeland like our pilots were to train new pilots in tactics. They also did not perform air-sea rescue of pilots. This left the Japanese with planes without pilots on their carriers.

We had deciphered several of the Japanese codes.

The Japanese would not give up ground even when it was no longer of military value. They preferred to kill themselves in suicide attacks in with they lost twice the numbers of the opposing forces in the island haopping campaigns.

What ultimately lead to the defeat of the Japanese, inspite of what some say, was the atomic bomb. Although they could have been defeated using conventional means the invasion of the Japanese home islands was estimated then to have required a million men.

Offline Downwindtracker2

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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2004, 04:23:14 PM »
The US had better trucks and lot's of them.Germans used the railroads,horses and pre-war 2WD french Ford trucks(which they paid Ford for).True even the Pather was a better tank then the Sherman,but the design of the Sherman allowed mass productin in car factories.So if it took 3 Shermans to take out Tiger,if you have 10 Shermans.The Garand was a much better battle rifle than the '98,but so was the British SMLE.American bombers were always the best.
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Offline kevin.303

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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2004, 07:26:48 AM »
i think i have a pretty good knowledge of military history especially where airpower is concerned. one thing is that all the allied forces went into the war with out of date weapons, especially aircraft. but as the war went on the designs improved whereas the axis forces kept some of the same basic designs thru out the whole war. the ME 109 was one of the best fighters of the war and was superior at the outbreak but was hampered by a very short operational range. and only carried 2 7.92 MG's and a 20MM cannon. yes the zero could outperform most fighter's through out the war put that was because it was striped of armour and heavy armaments. aircraft like the corsair and the mustang had a stronger structureal integritity and could simply power dive away from a fight without tearing the wings off. by the end of the war all allied fighters had an armament of  4-8 .50's and/or a 20MM-37MM cannons(P-61 night fighter, 4 .50's and 4 20's all converging on the same spot at 500 yards-OUCH!!) so it's not suprising that axis aircraft where considered out of date. as well, japan at the time was not a heavy industrial  nation and assembly plants where a cottage industry.there where very few production lines and all raw materials had to be shipped in from other parts of the empire(enter the submarine). as for the german jet's, if hitler wasn't such a crazy fanatic it's been thought the could have been in service by early '43, but if he wasn't a fanatical nut the war might never have started, so it's all speculation.
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