Author Topic: Duplex loads  (Read 1017 times)

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Offline beng

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Duplex loads
« on: May 12, 2012, 05:21:30 AM »
I have a quick question about cast bullets and duplex loading.   I NOW am shooting a 520 Lyman bullet with H4198.   I was going to try and see what  duplex loading was like.   Most everyone says, and what I read, is to use the 350 to 405 grainers.   Anyone know if I can use a 520 and what to load (8700 powder etc)    Thanks for your time    beng
beng

Offline RevGeo

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2012, 05:23:17 AM »
Are we talking 45-70 here?

Offline beng

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2012, 05:28:00 AM »
I see I did not put it in, yes, it's 45-70    34" barrel (green mountain)
beng

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2012, 10:18:39 AM »
With today's powder choices , Duplex loads are just a VERY BAD thing waiting to happen , these type of loads were designed when black powder was the go-to thing for LARGE case capisity cartridges like the 500 Nitro and larger .
 
The thinking was to use a small charge of fast burning priming powder to light a much larger charge of course Black Powder , but with today's primers & slower burning powders designed just for big rounds , there is just not a reason to take a chance .
 
And for what its worth I have found that Re7 works very well in the 45/70 with bullets up to 525g and standard large rifle primers .
 
stimpy
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Offline calvon

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2012, 12:46:58 PM »
+1 to what Stimpy wrote. The conventional wisdom on duplex loads is JUST DON'T DO IT!


There is but little if any to be gained and MUCH to lose.

Offline JeffG

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2012, 02:46:32 PM »
I would rather pour gas in my lap and light it than experiment with duplex
loads. I saw a fine Smith 29 come apart with a duplex of Olin 296 and another
powder. Most of the cylinder went through the range roof
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2012, 03:26:35 PM »
I agree with the above statements.  NOT mixing smokeless powders is a basic tenet of reloading.  I would not do it unless you find a pressure tested load in a modern, mainstream reloading manual, such as Speer, Lyman, etc.  I don't recall seeing any though...
 
Larry
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2012, 01:15:58 AM »
Unless you are a very experienced and knowledgeable reloader you shouldn't be messing with duplex loads and if you were that talented, you wouldn't be needing to ask the question.

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2012, 03:44:48 AM »
We had a very well known gun writer and handgun hunter here in Ohio, over 20 years ago, mess around with duplex loads in pistols. Luckily, he never had one blow up, but he sure messed up a couple. Agree with Stimpy and the rest. With todays powders and primers, no need to try something that dangerous. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Dave in WV

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2012, 06:25:44 AM »
There are proper powders for reloading everything. Why would anyone need a duplex load? Two different burn rates and pressures is looking for a disaster.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 12:06:14 AM »
I agree totaly with if you have to ask you shouldnt  be even thinking of doing it.
Unless you are a very experienced and knowledgeable reloader you shouldn't be messing with duplex loads and if you were that talented, you wouldn't be needing to ask the question.
blue lives matter

Offline corbanzo

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2012, 01:03:38 AM »
If you want faster get a bigger gun. 

Duplex loads were meant to help with ignition of packed slower burning or harder to ignite powders, with conventional primers and powders this should never be a problem. 

If you have a packed load you've worked up and you think erratic ignition is the problem, try a magnum primer. - But then you also have to remember a magnum primer will increase pressure so you'd have to back off your powder charge to a minimum and work it back up anyways....

Anyway you look at it, I agree with everybody here, there is never a purpose for duplex loading. 

I admit in my dumber days I have tried it, did research, saw what other idiots were doing and tried to do it safely....  And honestly I didn't see a gain in performance that I couldn't get with just switching to a different powder.  A little bit of shotgun powder with a lot of large rifle powder.... - Why not just a little bit faster burning large rifle powder? 

My recommendation is get a .458 Lott. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline beng

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 06:20:22 AM »
To all of you,    Thanks,   I will not be messing around with duplex loads.   I have read about it and was wondering how to do it, I'll just stay at my load.   (this is why I go to the guys who know)
beng

Offline corbanzo

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Duplex loads
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 07:13:51 AM »
For informations sake since you were wondering - the idea is put a bit of a fast burning powder at the bottom of a casing, under a usually compressed load of very slow burning powder.  The idea is that the fast burning powder is easily ignited by the primer, and helps the primer ignite the main powder charge.

Now the basis for this was not modern powders. These were old powders that were very temperamental, at times hard to ignite, and usually compacted - and quite literally needed help to have good ignition.

The "new" usage for duplex was with people who think that they can use a whole lot of slow burning powder in a case, which gives them high velocities with the lower pressures of slower burning powders, and a fast powder to make faster and hotter ignition of that slow powder.

The problem is in that last sentence. Faster and hotter ignition = higher pressure. Every time.  Magnum primers = higher pressure, faster powders = higher pressure. So then you are taking all of that pressure, and putting it behind an already large powder load, and you are destined for failure. Catastrophic failure.

Since there is no way to know how the two different pressure curves will align in your case during ignition, there is no way to know when the pressure will spike and how high it will spike. With the literal hundreds of modern powders as their are out there, you have so many options and so much to play with within safe and tested reign, there is no need to test duplex loads.

Now if you are trying to recreate an old pb load known to use duplex loading, because that is a hobby of yours, that might be a reason. But if you are just making a load for shooting and hunting out of a modern firearm with modern components, there is no reason, and there is no gain.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Steve P

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 07:33:23 AM »
Lots of good answers above.  Best overall message is DONT DO IT!!
 
Most, if not all, ammunition or explosives made with duplex loads have a way of containing the different powder types so they do not mix.  Little bit of fast powder and a lot of slower powder mixed makes a medium powder, right?  WRONG!!  Duplex powders loaded incorrectly often result in duplex ignition.  TWO pressure spikes nano seconds apart.  This is what can cause mega destruction.  (Ever have a delayed ignition in a muzzleloader?)
 
Faster powder is used to make a higher volume of slower powder ignite more uniformly.  Most ammunition made this way is compressed with bullet lightly crimped to hold it in place. The powder is compressed so tightly that it is often hard to empty an unfired case after pulling the bullet. 
 
Today's modern primers have enough spark to ignite the powders designed to use in your application.  Good loading manuals pair primer and powder combos so ignition is safe. 
 
Thanks for choosing to be safe.
 
Steve :)   
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 07:42:36 AM »
I once read that when smokless powder came out some called it white powder . It was not much like what we now have , maybe Bullseye is the closest . But that was when duplex loads were made even by factories . The powder today is not the same and should not be used . But I don't really know much other than that. AND WOULD NOT TRY IT.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline iiranger

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Re: Duplex loads
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2012, 09:43:16 AM »
I am familiar with about 4 instances of duplex loading. a). Back in the 1950s there was fast draw competition and for safety's sake the cartridges were loaded with fast blank powder. You had to burst a balloon to score. Not always did the balloon burst... Reloaders would add some 4831 to the blank powder to have larger hot pieces going toward the balloon. b). E. Keith wrote of putting 8 or 10 grains of smokeless in his black powder cases before the black powder. .45/90 I believe. No real intent of improving performance. Rather he wanted a cloud of smokeless gas to help "blow out" the black powder crud and make cleaning less of a chore. SR4759 if I recall. c). Keith also wrote of working at a US weapons depot during WW II. With the resources he demonstrated that by loading 2 powders he could get an additional 200 fps in the .50 Browning machine gun round. He was congradulated and immediatly the project was shelved. There was no way to get the baggage apes handling ammo to handle the ammo so as to not mix the powders and create a very, VERY dangerous situation. d). Rocky Gibbs, just after WW II when supplies were rare, worked with duplex loads. Wolf Publishing of Phoenix, AZ had a book on Mr. Gibbs with info and loads. He used a "flash tube" threaded into the primer pocket to deliver the flash to the base of the bullet. With tube plugged, he would put a fast powder into the base of a primed case AND THEN the slow powder. Obviously, the primer flash would "set off" the slow powder and get the bullet moving before, in microseconds, the fire would reach the faster powder which would act like a "turbo" or super charger... With the selection of powders available today (which are duplex or more, blended by the manufacturer), doing your work at home on a random basis... PLEASE be sure your insurance is in good order, if you must experiment and try to keep your failures out of the papers for the sake/ reputation of the rest of us. THANK YOU. Happy trails, otherwise.