Author Topic: Why deal with the obvious???  (Read 1181 times)

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Offline grouse

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Why deal with the obvious???
« on: January 31, 2004, 04:49:49 AM »
There are so many Muzzleloaders on the market today.
For an example- Whites,Knights,T/C, Savage. They range
between $140.00 to $600.00. Why even deal with and unsafe
muzzleloader. There is cold hard facts that BPI(CVA) are only
tested to 9954psi. As it seems, there is know other testing going on.
So why buy there guns? Because there cheap? Well the other guns
are cheap also. This unsafe Muzzleloaders is becoming popular everywhere. How can anyone really feel safe using one. Or even
deal with the one they got. Send your guns back and tell them you
want a safe muzzleloader. Maybe then they will do something about it.
Nobody has to to own a muzzleloader, at least when we do, a safe one
would be nice. Everybody will have there opinion, but to me it is obvious.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2004, 05:48:57 AM »
Want me to take "Point / CounterPoint" here? :?

Most people selling muzzleloaders have no idea what pressures are really generated-- as your "pro" behind the counter at any number of chain stores can demonstrate for you. There is no "Consumer Products Safety Commission" that applies. Most people would not believe that the muzzleloading industry has no standards as to specifications or tolerances. Apparently, many still do not believe it. The thought does not cross anyone's mind, nor does it when buying a shotgun or rifle that does have SAMMI for a few guidelines.

There IS a certain legitimacy to "safety in numbers." Hodgdon did not come up with their "MAX, DO NOT EXCEED" loadings by complete happenstance. But, when a company tells you it is just fine to throw the powder manufacturer's cautions, warnings, and limits to the wind-- and ignore them, it is only reasonable to ask, "By what authority is it that they do so?"

NOW-- those looking for blame to cast will have plenty of targets. Knight, Thompson, NEF / H & R, Savage, and White all claim, and have proven their guns are built to a far higher standard than Traditions, BPI, etc. For YEARS, Knight, Thompson, etc., have all "said" they want muzzleloading standards. Just what have they done about it? Sure, Knight has released reports that show what their guns will take, T/C, and White have thorough reports as well. The several companies that "say" they want minimum acceptable standards have done nothing that is visible in this regard that I can see.

Long time industry leaders have SHIRKED their own responsibility in this area for decades. Why should you, me, or anyone else tell folks that Knight's barreled actions or Thompson's barreled actions are far superior to some cheap imports? Isn't it THEIR JOB? Isn't it THEIR INDUSTRY?

Where has Knight been?
Where has White been?
Where has Thompson been?

Don't they have a far greater vested interest in standards of quality in the muzzleloading industry than any individual? So, you may call it "OBVIOUS"--- but doesn't that make Knight and Thompson "OBLIVIOUS"?

Offline wpayne

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Why deal with the obvious???
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2004, 08:29:28 AM »
The simple answer to "Why no standards?" is that it has a great possibility of costing them (the manufacturers) a lot of money.  It's a pure business decision, if the cost of implementing standards is higher than the cost (lawsuits etc) of not having them, then they won't have them.  Please don't ask the gov't to step in, I'd hate to see how bad they'd screw it up.  A third party, consumer reports style orginazation would be perfect in my opinion....

In the past muzzleloading meant a guy with a sidelock and some blackpowder with lead roundballs or conicals.  That image is no longer the pictureof the average muzzleloader.  Improving technology will neccessitate better and tested equipment.  As others companies follow Savage's lead into smokeless powder (and I'm confident they will) we will undoubtedly see some standards and real numbers, I hope.

I recently passed up a great deal on a CVA and bought my Omega...  Not because of anything I'd read here, I hadn't even found this sight yet, I just liked the gun better.  I've read the goings on at the CV forum and they can say what they will but I'm not going to recommend one to a "friend".  Being macho with your own wellbeing is one thing but would you buy a "possibly unsafe" M/L for a family member when there are better tested guns for a comparable price?  Not I.....

I'm off my soapbox now.


William

Offline grouse

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Why deal with the obvious???
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2004, 11:35:09 AM »
If muzzleloaders were run thru Sammi, this kind
of stuff wouldnt happen.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2004, 12:05:33 PM »
http://www.saami.org

There's no answer that is going to make people universally happy. Nobody wants the BATF or other government entity foisting themselves into smokepole land that I know of-- nobody.

Yet, those who have been the most successful in the muzzleloading industry have not done anything significant in the last 20 years to try to make it a better place. When this industry, which continues to grow, shows flagrant disregard for the hunters and shooters that have helped build it, they get whatever they deserve. SAAMI is a voluntary organization; always has been. Certainly it could be expanded to offer a bare minimum of non-invasive standards, if the major players wanted it.

They have given absolutely no evidence that they do. The "Remington Route" is not exactly the best path-- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/02/07/eveningnews/main270199.shtml


Pressures generated are not a matter of speculation. Anyone can digest independent data on the subject, such as Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Reloading Manual, 2nd Ed., Copyright 2001 by Lyman Products Corporation. A glance at pages 206-261 will reveal .54 caliber round ball pressures generated at 6000 PSI or so for 100 grain charges of black powder. The highest pressures are 8800 PSI for 120 grains of Elephant FFFg or Pyrodex Select. A 10,000 PSI proof is generous for service loads of 6,000 - 7000 PSI or so-- and, at least the barrels are proofed.

When we hit 3-pellet, 150 grain Pyrodex loads-- that is an entirely different level of performance and pressure. Again, there is no speculation at all about this, as p. 172 of the same text shows 27,000 PSI developed by 3 pellets in a 22" test barrel pushing a 240 grain Hornady sabot.

There is no reason to believe that this is "reasonable" in a barrel proofed only to sub-10,000 PSI. Many have gotten frantic about this, and some CVA / Traditions owners apparently feel this is somehow a personal attack of sorts. I don't know all the CVA / Traditions customers, and I am one myself! The number of "yuk-yuk" catcalls that "hey, my gun didn't blow up today, SO THERE!" has been surprising. Hardly the issue.

There have been unable to state whether their guns are so much as tested to 20,000 or 25,000 PSI-- yet, they direct their customers to use loads that develop more than even that. That makes no sense, and their response has been as inept and as frightened as could be imagined. So, who knows? They don't care to answer their customers, they have gone "ballistic" when this question has been posed, and whether Toby Bridges, Del Ramsey, Doc White, etc.,-- no recognized expert that has expressed concern over this has been deemed worthy of a straight answer on such a very simple, fundamental level.

This level of incompetence is startling, despite the recent far larger scale problems of Ford Pintos and Bridgestone-Firestone tires. Everybody has their own views on this, and the choice is anyone's to make. When that choice is made, though, it is not just for yourself-- it for your family, friends, and perhaps the fellow shooting next to you. A totally risk free sport (that is any fun) does no exist, but needless exposure to just that-- if only to me, in my personal opinion. Hunting and shooting sports are fun, and anything that distracts from that I find, well ( :roll: ) distracting.


Offline grouse

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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2004, 05:46:30 PM »
Thats a shame about Remington. I happen to be a big remington
fan also. Well i am not going to stick up for them thats for sure.
Somebody needs to do something like that with BPI(CVA).
So many people own them, they just want to support them. :?
Its like i own one, nothing can be wrong with it. Give me a break.

Offline Roger_Dailey

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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2004, 05:37:48 AM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
There's no answer that is going to make people universally happy. Nobody wants the BATF or other government entity foisting themselves into smokepole land that I know of-- nobody.


  Maybe we just need to start!  My past experiences in such matters says that if we don't do it ourselves, then it will be done for us!  The lawyers and policticians love to have "noble" causes like a "dangerous industry without standards".  

  I'll volunteer to at least start collecting ideas and playing them back.  You can share your thoughts through the message boards or send them to me directly ( Roger_Dailey@hotmail.com).   I'll collect them for the next couple of weeks, render them down as best possible, publish the results here and proceed to the next step.

  The first questions that pop into my mind are:

  1) What areas need standards?  barrels, actions, projectiles, propellants

  2)  Who should participate in this process?

Offline grouse

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Why deal with the obvious???
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2004, 11:21:46 AM »
A friend of mine really wants me to shoot his CVA gun.
So either wednesday or thursday evening i am going to,
i think. Maybe 70grns of powder with a 220grn DC will
be alright? I guess i will find out. :eek:

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2004, 02:43:05 PM »
Grouse,

I'm wondering right now why you started this thread. Isn't it obvious? :oops:

Offline grouse

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Why deal with the obvious???
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2004, 03:30:54 PM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
Grouse,

I'm wondering right now why you started this thread. Isn't it obvious? :oops:


Safety Randy, no other reason. To show you can buy
cheap guns that are tested to be safe at high pressures,
and so called magnum loads. One example, the new
American Knight with red plastic jacket is safe to shoot
magnum loads. The cost is around $160.00. I think
anybody who is going to buy a Muzzleloader can afford
that. Just because i might shoot one, doesnt mean they
are safe and so on. And i would bet, after i do shoot it,
they will buy a different ML. Thanks for the reply, you
gave me an idea. I will take my knight down to the range
also. My trigger was adjusted to 2 1/2 pounds, his trigger
is non adjustable according to him. It is at 6lbs right now.

Offline grouse

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Why deal with the obvious???
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2004, 04:34:41 PM »
Well the gun was not a CVA, it was a Traditions. We didn"t even
go to the range. Thank God. We went to sporting goods store that
i never been to. This guy knew everything about barrel pressures,
loads etc. Really big into inline Muzzleloading. So to make a long story
short, my friends uncle bought a new Omega. Blued barrel and synthetic.
I really thought he might buy the American Knight. But he didn"t.
That's okay the omega I would say is a better gun for the money.
He only paid $305.00. The guy at the store is also mailing me a
lyman ML loading book. I looked thru it with him. Pretty interesting.
It shows different pressures with bullets and powders. It would be
nice if all gun shops/ sporting goods stores were like this one.
Atleast the people and the knowledge. This guy also claimed that
BPI does no further testing of there rifles in the USA. (Barrel Pressures). I also bought some ffg 777 loose off him. I am going to
shoot my ML this weekend, i dont care if it's raining or snowing.

Offline RCL

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Why deal with the obvious???
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2004, 12:29:57 AM »
Grouse, what store, and where's it at?
Robert Leggett
"You sure you know how to skin grizz pilgrim?"

Offline big6x6

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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2004, 02:41:28 AM »
"It would be nice if all gun shops/ sporting goods stores were like this one."

They ARE in Sir Thomas Moores' Utopia!

SADLY, as times change for the worse, knowledge staff are a thing of the past.  Instead of reasearching a product line, items are purchased off the cuff to sell and they automatically become "the best out there."  Savy retailers should know what's available and have a little idea how the product performs in the field.  It's knowledge that separate the great dealers from the so-so dealers.  It's knowledge when a dealer makes the decision to stock and RECOMMEND a Knight Amierican Knight over a Traditions Lightning.  

I cringe when I go to my local store and hear the dude behind the counter recommend something he knows absolutely nothing about.  In muzzleloading land this usually means the recommendation of a Traditions muzzleloader to a first time buyer.  I used to be passive and allow the sales pitch to take place.  Now I jump right in there.  It's my duty!
Deactivated as trouble maker. Letters to sponsors over inline forum problems.

Offline grouse

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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2004, 03:33:13 PM »
Big 6x6, It"s your duty. :-D

Thats a great attitude to have. I wish i had the knowledge
to be able to do that. I heard a guy saying at the sporting goods
store tonight, that the new Knight revolution does not have a
breach plug. That makes no sense to me, but maybe it wont?
I really don't know, and didnt comment.  :grin:

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2004, 04:15:26 PM »
Quote from: grouse
new Knight revolution does not have a
breach plug. That makes no sense to me, but maybe it wont?


Glad it didn't. Of course it has a breechplug, complete with a similar nipple on the end for the red plastic jacket to press on to.

Offline Underclocked

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Why deal with the obvious???
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2004, 04:26:36 PM »
Could be a Knight proprietary space-age plastic plug that requires changing every 10 shots.
WHUT?

Offline grouse

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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2004, 04:34:14 PM »
Quote from: RCL
Grouse, what store, and where's it at?


RCL,
      I was thinking about the PM you sent me. In newyork there is
a really good ML guy up there. The sporting goods store is called whitetail
country. They seem to have descent prices also. I really can't remember
the guys name. Maybe Bob. It's located down the road from salamanca.
Hope this helps you out.

Offline RCL

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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2004, 04:56:31 PM »
Thanks Grouse, I'll check it out some weekend.

 :D
Robert Leggett
"You sure you know how to skin grizz pilgrim?"