greywater system in freezing climate help

[Gallahad]

I have a house I purchase that has laundry water draining into the backyard. frost line here is 42" deep. there are cattails in backyard. water table is high, and lawn is soggy in most places. I cant imagine that there are not freezing problems where the water comes out of the pipe in the winter. I would like to know if there is a way to "hide"the pipe, and protect it from freezing. I am not concened at all about re-using the water, it is not an issue. Just want to make it look nice and make it drain well, especially in winter.

[two-blocked]

Are you on a septic system or a municiple sewer? You could tie it into either one.
You could bury the pipe in a french drain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_drain
I wouldn't expect the water to freeze in the line unless it's laid with little or no slope.
 

[Gallahad]

nada, im out in the woods. holding tank is only septic. temps get minus 30 regularly here in winter. how do I fix/hide pipe and not have it freeze?

[two-blocked]

How far down is the water table?  Because you are only dealling with wash water you could get by with "leach field light" but you can't build a submerged leach field.
Can you drain it to a couple of infiltration chambers?  http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/   they still need to be above the water table.
To keep the pipe from freezing you could place gutter heat tape in it.

[Gallahad]

not positive, but you get water digging a hole 3' deep anywhere in the yard.  whats the cheapest way to deal with it without "looking like your piping water onto the ground"?

[two-blocked]

1. Starting at the house bury solid pipe in the existing soil as far as you can to get the discharge away from the house.
2. Then create a french drain. In your case I'd dig a trench 2'-6" deep x a backhoe bucket width  and create a"burrito" with coarse gravel wrapped with filter fabric and perforated pipe inside. How long? Tough to say without knowing perc rates. 25-50' ?
As long as your line slopes along it's length (1/4" per foot is optimal, 1/8"  per foot is permissible if 4" or larger pipe) the water should have enough retained heat to drain and percolate out into the french drain without freezing. I'd use  4"  pipe as a minimum. That size should not freeze solid.
Install some clean-outs along the way. I wouldn't install heat tape until I knew there was a freezing problem. Monitor the pipe through the cleanouts.
 

[Gallahad]

Thanks. now I need to go buy a backhoe.     seriously, really appreciate your responses. Thanks and God bless!

[two-blocked]

Got kids? Put em to work!

[hillbill]

just go to a rental place and rent one of those dinky little rubber tracked excavators.you should be able to get that job in one day and get the machine back to the rental place as well. dont worry if you have never ran anything like that, they are pretty easy to learn in a few minutes.once you get your filter fabric positioned id fill it with coarse creek gravel if its available in your area.lots can be had around here just for going to a local creek access and shoveling it on your truck,approved by land owner of course. if thats not available go to a local quarry and get some 3-4 inch lateral rock.

[Lloyd Smale]

hate to be the fussy one here but what you doing is illegal. Your grey water has to go into your drain field like your sewer. Your drain field allows this to evaportate off and not polute the ground water. If you bought that house through a realitor id be complaining and asking why the home inspection didnt catch it and fix it. It should have not been legal to sell you the home like that.

[SHOOTALL]

In reality if you spread gray water on the surface it evaps there or gets filtered as it goes thru. top layers of soil which is a better way of dealing with it. Most consider putting it in the septic systen a burden on the systen be it a plant or drain field. In many places the plumbing code allowes for such. One thing that is not allowed is long term storage in most systems installed on new homes there is a collection tank used to irrigate lawns etc. It must be dumped every so many hours 48 I think . The piping is supposed to be violet ( light purple) so it won't be confused with potable water. Often potable water is added to the tank for volume to insure irrigation needs are met . Also if a tank is used a disenfectant and color is added in some places. The water comming out of your pipe should drain as it is warmer than freezing as it leaves the WM. I would make sure its discharge opening is high enough that ice build up would not be a problem. It might be wise to insulate exposed piping with armoflex so residusal water will drip out and not freeze after the main slug of water passes.A small amount of water freezing should not be a big problem though as the volume of hot water from the discharge of the WM will melt it anf force it out each cycle.  If that is not enough the piping could have heat trace installed to heat it when temptures drop below freezing.

[charles p]

I live in a far warmer climate but I had drain water freeze once when I left spigots dripping to prevent the supply lines from freezing.  A kitchen sink nearly overflowed as a result.  Eventually both the hot and cold supply and drain lines frooze.  What can happen is that with each use of the washer, a layer of ice might form inside the wet drain pipe.  Subsequent discharges could lay down new ice until the whole pipe is eventually blocked.  If water comes through quickly and exits completely, the layer that is frozen maybe be very small but I expect some ice to form inside the uninsulated pipe at your temps, even if the slope is substantial.
 
I am not a plumber, and I may be all wrong.  Only had this happen once and it was with an exposed sewer drain running to a septic tank.  Outside temps were in high single digits, not nearly as cold as yours.  The sewer drain ran under the house for about 40 feet then down to sub ground level.  The portion that froze was above ground.

[SHOOTALL]

I see kitchen sinks freeze in Va. most run horz to get out from under windows as they arm over to the waste stack . Most KS drains have some grease that builds up and slows flow , most wash machines do not . Also  KS has a very slow flow because water is not use in as high a vol. and the trap is 1.5 instead of 2 inch like most WM drains are today. Even the 1.5 pipe has better flow than the 1.5 tublar trap. 

[Lloyd Smale]

im not saying its wrong im saying its illegal. I know someone who does it myself

In reality if you spread gray water on the surface it evaps there or gets filtered as it goes thru. top layers of soil which is a better way of dealing with it. Most consider putting it in the septic systen a burden on the systen be it a plant or drain field. In many places the plumbing code allowes for such. One thing that is not allowed is long term storage in most systems installed on new homes there is a collection tank used to irrigate lawns etc. It must be dumped every so many hours 48 I think . The piping is supposed to be violet ( light purple) so it won't be confused with potable water. Often potable water is added to the tank for volume to insure irrigation needs are met . Also if a tank is used a disenfectant and color is added in some places. The water comming out of your pipe should drain as it is warmer than freezing as it leaves the WM. I would make sure its discharge opening is high enough that ice build up would not be a problem. It might be wise to insulate exposed piping with armoflex so residusal water will drip out and not freeze after the main slug of water passes.A small amount of water freezing should not be a big problem though as the volume of hot water from the discharge of the WM will melt it anf force it out each cycle.  If that is not enough the piping could have heat trace installed to heat it when temptures drop below freezing.

[Gallahad]

everywhere, or certain states?

[two-blocked]

Typically it is illegal, but a lot of people do it.  check w/ county officials.
My idea of draining into a french drain may not be that great. Didn't realize how many hole clogging solids are in laundry water .
Check out this site: http://www.oasisdesign.net/greywater/laundry/

[SHOOTALL]

Typically it is illegal, but a lot of people do it.  check w/ county officials.
My idea of draining into a french drain may not be that great. Didn't realize how many hole clogging solids are in laundry water .
Check out this site: http://www.oasisdesign.net/greywater/laundry/

If gray water reuse is illegal then please explain why its addressed in the NATIONAL PLUMBING CODE noting proper installation? a french drain is though but a true french drain is a hole where the water is allowed to enter the ground below the surface negating the filtering effect of the surface layers. BTW we see soap build up causing more stopped drains or at least contributing to stopped drains than most any other thing except maybe roots.

[mannyrock]

 
  The fact that a grey water discharge line is addressed in the National Plumbing Code does not mean that it is legal in any particular county.  Each county adopts its own set of building and septic codes, and to violate them is illegal.  Most counties in and around urban and suburban areas have specifically outlawed grey water lines.
 
   That having been said, the solid pipe away from the house connected to a French drain is definitely the answer.  And no, you don't need a backhoe.   I am 57 and have dug two long french drains by hand in the past 3 years.  Since this ground is already wet, it would not be too difficult.
 
   The secret to digging a good trench is that you don't shovel down to the final depth all at once.  You take a medium size mattox, with a hoe on one side, and straddle the path of the  ditch.  Then, you lightly swing the hoe down into the soil, and lift up the handle.  When you do this, 2 inches of soil will be lifted upward by the hoe.  Move over and do about four of these cuts in a side by side row.  This will give you a one foot wide ditch.
 
  Now, step backwards about 6 inches, and repeat the process.  After you make the 4 cuts and lifts, step back again and do it again.  Just keep moving backwards until you have done this over then entire length of the ditch.
 
  NOW, get out your shovel, and going foreward, shovel out the loose soil and lay it neatly on one side of the ditch.  Don't throw it, just lift and place it.  You will find that  it is pretty easy to take out the top 3 inches of dirt for the entire length of the ditch.
 
   Now, start the entire process again, using the mattox to chop and lift the soil, moving backwards, and the shovel to lift it out, moving forewards.
 
  Set a pace, even a slow one, that lets you keep working like a machine.  If you need to work an hour, and then rest an hour, that is totally fine.
 
  After you have done this a total of 4 times, you will have a one foot wide and one foot deep ditch.
 
  If you can find one good helper (a strong teenage boy), it goes pretty fast, because you can trade off using the two tools.  And while one person is chopping and lifting the soil with the mattox, the other, traveling towards him, can be lifting the loose soil out with the shovel.
 
  The keypoint is, it ain't a race.  If it takes one day, then fine.  If it takes three days, then fine.  You will be very proud when you are done.
 
  P.S.- I learned this system by watching two old Mexican men dig a long ditch one day.  They got into a pace, and never stopped working.  It was pretty amazing.  At the end of the day, I offered them each a cigar and a couple of cold beers. They refused, saying "No patron, no."  I guess that in Mexico, you just don't socialize with the boss.
 
Best, Mannyrock
 
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

  The fact that a grey water discharge line is addressed in the National Plumbing Code does not mean that it is legal in any particular county Really it does in where the code is accepted which is a good portion of the USA .   Each county adopts its own set of building and septic codes not really any more , that was true years ago but now no , in most places the state decides the code to be used and adms. the code state wide and in many places like Va and NC the state pays the inspectors in each local. , and to violate them is illegal of course it is but when local and state laws conflict under most codes the state interpitation is the one followed..  Most counties in and around urban and suburban areas have specifically outlawed grey water lines.No they have out lawed french drains and the GREEN movement has forced many locations to embrace the gray water movement. IT SAVES TREATING WATER AT THE WASTE WATER PLANTS SAVING HUGE AMOUNTS OF CAPITAL. not to mention slows the need to expand plants as quickly.
 
   That having been said, the solid pipe away from the house connected to a French drain is definitely the answer.  And no, you don't need a backhoe.   I am 57 and have dug two long french drains by hand in the past 3 years.  Since this ground is already wet, it would not be too difficult.
 
   The secret to digging a good trench is that you don't shovel down to the final depth all at once.  You take a medium size mattox, with a hoe on one side, and straddle the path of the  ditch.  Then, you lightly swing the hoe down into the soil, and lift up the handle.  When you do this, 2 inches of soil will be lifted upward by the hoe.  Move over and do about four of these cuts in a side by side row.  This will give you a one foot wide ditch.
 
  Now, step backwards about 6 inches, and repeat the process.  After you make the 4 cuts and lifts, step back again and do it again.  Just keep moving backwards until you have done this over then entire length of the ditch.
 
  NOW, get out your shovel, and going foreward, shovel out the loose soil and lay it neatly on one side of the ditch.  Don't throw it, just lift and place it.  You will find that  it is pretty easy to take out the top 3 inches of dirt for the entire length of the ditch.
 
   Now, start the entire process again, using the mattox to chop and lift the soil, moving backwards, and the shovel to lift it out, moving forewards.
 
  Set a pace, even a slow one, that lets you keep working like a machine.  If you need to work an hour, and then rest an hour, that is totally fine.
 
  After you have done this a total of 4 times, you will have a one foot wide and one foot deep ditch.
 
  If you can find one good helper (a strong teenage boy), it goes pretty fast, because you can trade off using the two tools.  And while one person is chopping and lifting the soil with the mattox, the other, traveling towards him, can be lifting the loose soil out with the shovel.
 
  The keypoint is, it ain't a race.  If it takes one day, then fine.  If it takes three days, then fine.  You will be very proud when you are done.
 
  P.S.- I learned this system by watching two old Mexican men dig a long ditch one day.  They got into a pace, and never stopped working.  It was pretty amazing.  At the end of the day, I offered them each a cigar and a couple of cold beers. They refused, saying "No patron, no."  I guess that in Mexico, you just don't socialize with the boss.
 
Best, Mannyrock

You decribe a drain field around here a french drain is a hole with gravel in it often lined with a concrete pipe or well casing with a top on it. I can't remember how many of these I have installed in public schools to get rid of condensate from AC's and Heat pumps . Sometimes as many as 20 to a school. I would ask , if the ground is saturated what do you gain by placing the line under ground since it is already full of water ? Better to sprinkle the yard or area and when the ground can take it , it will.
 
BTW APPENDIX C of the 2009 USB code is where you will find gray water recycling systems . But only 34 states use this code as of now.
As for digging run a roto tiller back and forth then scoop out the loose dirt then repete until you reach the depth you want . I learned that from two brothers who went in business digging house foundations that way . Today they have several back-hoes and a mini-X 

[charles p]

Can you gravity feed the water to where it will perk? 

[hillbill]

  The fact that a grey water discharge line is addressed in the National Plumbing Code does not mean that it is legal in any particular county.  Each county adopts its own set of building and septic codes, and to violate them is illegal.  Most counties in and around urban and suburban areas have specifically outlawed grey water lines.
 
   That having been said, the solid pipe away from the house connected to a French drain is definitely the answer.  And no, you don't need a backhoe.   I am 57 and have dug two long french drains by hand in the past 3 years.  Since this ground is already wet, it would not be too difficult.
 
   The secret to digging a good trench is that you don't shovel down to the final depth all at once.  You take a medium size mattox, with a hoe on one side, and straddle the path of the  ditch.  Then, you lightly swing the hoe down into the soil, and lift up the handle.  When you do this, 2 inches of soil will be lifted upward by the hoe.  Move over and do about four of these cuts in a side by side row.  This will give you a one foot wide ditch.
 
  Now, step backwards about 6 inches, and repeat the process.  After you make the 4 cuts and lifts, step back again and do it again.  Just keep moving backwards until you have done this over then entire length of the ditch.
 
  NOW, get out your shovel, and going foreward, shovel out the loose soil and lay it neatly on one side of the ditch.  Don't throw it, just lift and place it.  You will find that  it is pretty easy to take out the top 3 inches of dirt for the entire length of the ditch.
 
   Now, start the entire process again, using the mattox to chop and lift the soil, moving backwards, and the shovel to lift it out, moving forewards.
 
  Set a pace, even a slow one, that lets you keep working like a machine.  If you need to work an hour, and then rest an hour, that is totally fine.
 
  After you have done this a total of 4 times, you will have a one foot wide and one foot deep ditch.
 
  If you can find one good helper (a strong teenage boy), it goes pretty fast, because you can trade off using the two tools.  And while one person is chopping and lifting the soil with the mattox, the other, traveling towards him, can be lifting the loose soil out with the shovel.
 
  The keypoint is, it ain't a race.  If it takes one day, then fine.  If it takes three days, then fine.  You will be very proud when you are done.
 
  P.S.- I learned this system by watching two old Mexican men dig a long ditch one day.  They got into a pace, and never stopped working.  It was pretty amazing.  At the end of the day, I offered them each a cigar and a couple of cold beers. They refused, saying "No patron, no."  I guess that in Mexico, you just don't socialize with the boss.
 
Best, Mannyrock

now this feller right here obviously knows what work is! thats exactly how i would do it if i didnt have a backhoe already.

[Dixie Dude]

Have you thought about sending your "gray water" or washing machine water to a holding tank?  Then put a pump in the tank and have it connected to your toilets.  Disconnect your toilets from the freshwater system.  That way you reuse your gray water through your toilets.  Typically enough washing machine water from a standard washing machine is enough to flush toilets for a family of 4.  If it is not enough, you can run your bath/shower water to the holding tank to give enough to flush.  People who have installed this type system can save about 50% of water use.  Lots of people are doing this in desert areas.  If you don't like the looks of the gray water in the toilet, just put one of those blue cleaning tablets in the tank.  Of course you need to filter the washing machine water to keep lint out of the graywater.  I've seen this done using two 55 gallon drums in a basement.  1st one caught the washing machine water, then it drained over into the second one.  They used an old shirt sleeve tied over the washing machine drain before going into the first tank to try to catch most of the lint.  The first drum is supposet to be higher than the second.  It catches even more lint.  Works good if you have a basement.  If not you would have to bury a large holding tank to put your pump in to supply your toilets.

[SHOOTALL]

if you recycle gray water you have to filter it and add chemical cleaner along with speical piping methods

[Dixie Dude]

Not necessary if only used as flushing.  It already has washing machine cleaners and chemicals.  Filtering is the main thing, that is why it was suggested using two 55 gallon drums.  First would let any solids from cleaning settle, second is just the gray water.  A lot of water in the washing machine is just rince water, so it is very diluted to start with.  If you have a good lint filter in the washing machine, lint is not as big an issue.  Having one installed that could be removed and washed out would be the easiest.  Like I said a basement is the best option for recycling graywater, so you can get to all your components, drums, pump to supply the upstairs toilets, etc.

[Gallahad]

OK,     I like the french drain/homemade drain field thing, BUT........ being roughly 2' down, what will keep it from freezing and backing up the pipe?

[SHOOTALL]

the water from washing has to have chemicals added , the waste water also has the filth from washing in it  and no detergent dosen't take care of it completely . For what its worth your plumbing system is to protect you and your family from getting sick. Trying to do stupid things with it in an effort to save a few bucks often results in paying out more in medical bills . The reason french drains are out lawed is they often did not work as far as stopping sickness and contaminated water. It sounds like the area that will recieve the waste water won't perk. If it will not because the ground is full of water the filtering ground that will perk offers is not there and the normal distances a well needs to be from a waste line needs to be extended to remain safe.

[Gallahad]

well, the well is 50 feet deep, and water testing showed "excellent water" there were almost no nitrates and no bacteria in the water. This is after years of the washwater spilling onto the ground. as I understand it, bleach is something to be avoided with thease systems, but the research ive done says wash water is better for growing grass than well water. besides, we would closley moniter the "chemicals" we would use in the wash water if using something like this.  back to the question, why woulden't it freeze?

[Dixie Dude]

Shootall, I'm not sure you understand.  The waste washing machine water is collected in a seperate system and piped in a seperate system directly to the toilets.  Toilets are completely disconnected from the fresh water system.  No crossover.  The waste washing machine water is used for flushing toilets only.  Waste shower or bath water can also drain into this system and then sent to the toilets.  Any excess overflows into a seperate field line system.   

[SHOOTALL]

well, the well is 50 feet deep, and water testing showed "excellent water" there were almost no nitrates and no bacteria in the water. This is after years of the washwater spilling onto the ground. as I understand it, bleach is something to be avoided with thease systems, but the research ive done says wash water is better for growing grass than well water. besides, we would closley moniter the "chemicals" we would use in the wash water if using something like this.  back to the question, why woulden't it freeze?

dumping on the ground forces the liquid to have to filter thru the surface layers , the depth of the well is not the point often a well is dug deeper than the vane to be used as storage. If you introduce contaminates below the surface it could have a better chance to get into a well. It may be that the warm water mixed with chemicals in the wash water allowes it to exit the pipe before it can freeze. If the pipe has no trap on it then the warm air inside might be migrating out the pipe to the colder area out side keeping the pipe warm enough not to freeze . Easy enough to check hold some thing that gives off smoke ( smoke in a can is what is most often used) in front of the pipe intake and see if it is drawn into it.
The fact no cross connection is involved does not mean that the contaminated water from washing is not in the bowl and can be introduced into the air in the room when the Water closet is flushed . Did you consider that your tooth brush should be stored a min of 6 feet from a water closet because it can project vapor that far in to the room when flushed ?
People will do as they wish , I only offer what I have learned over the past 40 years as a lic plumber in an effort so people can make an educated decision . I often hear it worked for years and in fact they have no idea what sickness were caused over the years by sub standard plumbing . The other consideration is in years past soap was more of a natural product while today its mostly chemical. The reuse of gray water can be pratical if done in a safe way. If all you want to do is get rid of the wash water with out regard to future health issues that easy also.

[Gallahad]

shootall..... thats exactly why i posted this question. because there are good guys with a lot of knowledge here on GB. Thank you for your posts. I am not interested in re-using wast water. If it were going into a conventional septic, it would be going into a drainfield. I guess I don't see how thats any different than the suggestion of the "french drain" which was (simply put) 25-40 feet of gravel, 2 feet deep, with a holy drain pipe in the bottom.  your only bypassing @ 2 feet of ground filtration as opposed to pouring it out onto the surface. As I said, I don't see how its different, but im certainly no expert. if doing something like this, as I said, we would use nontoxic biodegradable all natural soaps. Probably wouldent hurt to send some soapscum eating enzymes down the tube once in a while too?