Author Topic: My AR puzzles me (Read 1520 times)

DANNY-L · « **on:** May 21, 2012, 07:46:01 AM »

I recently took the eotech off my ar and put my leupold back on for the summer. When I had the leupod vari xii on prior to the eotech I was getting 1" or less groups at 100yds and just about the same with the eotech. Now since I put the scope back on my groups opened up to about 3",mounts and scope are tight. I swapped out the scope with a nikon m223 2-8x I have and groups are still about 3". I even tried some other known accurate reloads and the same again. I cleaned the bore several times and it made no difference. I have the bore now soking in foam cleaner for the second time although after running patches through after the foam sat for an hour the first time it came out relativly clean. Anyone else find this confusing. All that I have fired was my reloads that were at one time real shooters. I did have a few 55gr brown bear ammo and still have about 3" groups. I use benchmark for the 55gr hornady and 55gr speer, varget for 65gr & 69gr sierra. All of which performed well for the past 2yrs.
The m223 is new,first time mounted.
The ar is a 16" spikes 1/7 twist and the rifle has been pretty much babied so has never been bumped,dropped or anything like that.

Thanks for your input

Bugflipper · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2012, 12:10:45 AM »

I will get the ball rolling, hopefully you will get a lot of replies on it. If you can rule out ammo and sights: Try grasping the scope and the grip. Pull apart and push together. See if there is any play between the upper and lower.

goodconcretecolor · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2012, 12:38:20 AM »

Even though it has been babied, carefully examine the crown on the muzzle for any fine nicks or scratches. It is one thing that would readily explain a sudden loss of accuracy and it is easy to check.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2012, 12:54:24 AM »

my guess is ammo. I wouldnt expect brown bear to do much better then that and even if it did previously a differnt lot number might change it alot. As to your reloads. Are you sure your seating to the same dept? Same exact load same primer, same brass ect. Ive seen changing any one thing double or triple group size.

Savage · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2012, 01:36:06 AM »

You haven't changed the hand guard by any chance have you? Something may be putting uneven pressure on your barrel.
Savage

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2012, 01:49:49 AM »

it would be hard to know the exact reason until you find it , which you may never unless you make one change at a time. First is the gun clean ? not just the bbl but the gas tube , bolt , carrier etc ? Is the reloads the same brass that have been shot several times before and reloaded ? Is the gun lubed the same ? did you foul the bore before shooting ? Is the recoil spring/buffer lubed and working well , how many shots has the gun fired ? Were yor scopes set on low power or high (same as before ? ) ? Are you seeing as well as you did ( this is from personal experince ) . Also physical conditios such as wind , clouds , time of day , hot or colder etc can effect both shooter and ammo. Are the reloads new or old ? were they loaded a year ago ? or more ? how were they stored ? You mentioned powder but did you use the same primers ? The crown as mentioned is important , do you clean from the muzzle ? do you use a sectional cleaning rod ? a military cleaning kit with steel rod ? Are your loads hot ? or maybe low power ? Do you use a powder dump ? Some powders have a SC now (short cut) to meter better . Are you shooting FMJ ? they seldom group as well as match bullets and brown bear , does the BB loads you shoot have a clear coat on the case ? If so check your chamber for build up. Also what chamber do you have ? It might matter if your reloads are 223 and chamber is 5.56 as far as accuracy . None of this may apply but then one or two may.

DANNY-L · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2012, 03:16:51 AM »

Here is a picture (may be a bit hard to see)of the NY fixed muzzle brake the burr goes completely around. Should this be lightly filed down smooth.

I did just change the handguard to a set of MOE,and come to think of it that is about the time groups went nuts. The guards have a bit of a wiggle left to right so it doesn't seem to be much for preasure.
My reloads are all the same, win primers,properly processed lc brass,powder was all individually measured with hornady auto charge and periodically check with rcbs 10-10 scale. Bullets are soft point. Reloads are part of a batch of 200 all done the same time. I clean the bore with a single length fiberglass rod from the breach end. The bore and chamber has been cleaned good and after that didn't help I used some thompson center foam cleaner and it made the chamber and bore shiny clean. I cleaned the bolt group and rubbed in oil with my finger enough for a light coat. The buffer and spring I haven't done lately but will now. The weather here has been hot and dry for here 75-80 with hardly a breeze and humidity not to bad,about like last summer and the rifle was shooting great. Thanks

Savage · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2012, 03:46:29 AM »

I took a 3/4" 100yd Bushmaster to a 4" rifle (Silver Bear Yet) with just a hand guard change. Ended up going from a two piece to a YHM one piece free floated one to get it back to 1"-1 1/4". I learned not to mess with a rifle that shoots that good!
Savage

DANNY-L · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2012, 04:01:38 AM »

I changed the handguards for attachment purposes,I'll switch them back and if the rain holds back give it a try.

Just switched hg and with 5 shots I had a group of 3@ 1 3/4", the first 2 hit about 2"lower but were 3/4" apart. I'll give it another cleaning and try again.
While cleaning I noticed seems that there is a weight in the buffer that just free floats back and forth. Never paid no attention before but is that right?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2012, 05:44:54 AM »

Some have them , a friends S&W does.

Ready_Aim_Fire! · « **Reply #10 on:** May 24, 2012, 10:37:32 PM »

Quote from: DANNY-L on May 21, 2012, 07:46:01 AM

I recently took the eotech off my ar and put my leupold back on for the summer. When I had the leupod vari xii on prior to the eotech I was getting 1" or less groups at 100yds and just about the same with the eotech. Now since I put the scope back on my groups opened up to about 3",mounts and scope are tight. I swapped out the scope with a nikon m223 2-8x I have and groups are still about 3". I even tried some other known accurate reloads and the same again. I cleaned the bore several times and it made no difference. I have the bore now soking in foam cleaner for the second time although after running patches through after the foam sat for an hour the first time it came out relativly clean. Anyone else find this confusing. All that I have fired was my reloads that were at one time real shooters. I did have a few 55gr brown bear ammo and still have about 3" groups. I use benchmark for the 55gr hornady and 55gr speer, varget for 65gr & 69gr sierra. All of which performed well for the past 2yrs.
The m223 is new,first time mounted.
The ar is a 16" spikes 1/7 twist and the rifle has been pretty much babied so has never been bumped,dropped or anything like that.

Thanks for your input

How do you have your scope configured? IE: quick mount (sled), standard mounts (thumb screws), I would put the eotech back on and see if it to is shooting 3" groups. If not then it is you scopes mounting or could be as simple as you just had it in the wrong eye relief position.

ironglow · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2012, 12:46:33 AM »

Danny;
Check with ironglowjr (my grandson) a former marine, gunsmith.. who works for a major government contractor and builds custom ARs for private rifle competitors and varmint hunters.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=32165

Bigeasy · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2012, 01:12:16 AM »

When a rifle that has always been accurate and consistent suddenly isn't, I would take a hard look at any changes you have made, such as the hand guards, or optic mounting. Another thought is some rifles are most accurate / consistent shooting out of a slightly fouled bore. When shooting for groups out of a freshly cleaned barrel, I always fire 3 or 4 "warm up" shots first.

Larry

DANNY-L · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2012, 06:04:02 AM »

I the original guards back on and it brought the groups closer but not as good as they were. The eotech was sold,so I can't put that back on. When I removed the scope I left the rings in place and just removed it from the rail and put it back in the same location. I did however take the scope off and lapped the rings(wheeler) the nikon on it now is the second scope both of which seem to be good. Everything is tight and tourqed.

Savage · « **Reply #14 on:** May 29, 2012, 01:00:52 AM »

Just noticed in your picture that you have the rifle in what looks to be a "Lead Sled". It may not be a problem, but I have not had good success using that rest with a collapsible stock AR. Just grasping at straws. Hope you have it worked out by now. Let us know, your experiences may help us sort out a similar problem someday. Good Luck!
Savage

DANNY-L · « **Reply #15 on:** May 29, 2012, 01:23:48 AM »

I do use the lead sled and at one time i had a similar issue and switched to sandbags and it was corrected. Then a while later went back to the sled and everything was fine,until now. This hot and humid weather is suppose to be gone after today so I'm likely to get it out tomorrow. I also have a A2 stock coming to try also. The collapsible are good if ya can use them but here in ny they need to be pinned anyway so that kinda takes away the purpose of it. Thanks

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** May 29, 2012, 01:43:19 AM »

Not to steal the thread but if acceptable , how much influnce does the delta ring, barrel nut c ring etc effect accuracy ? I ask because when changing hand guards alot of force can find its way to this junction depending on methord used to R&R the hand guard. I have tried both free float and standard hand guards . The free float one shoots great until you try using a sling or hang down hand grip to get a tight hold . Standard hand guards have become my choice ( I know this is not acceptable to the guys who must have the most stuff and newest stuff on their gun) . I like lite and maybe if you don't add hang down hand grips etc. you won't pull on the hand guard and place pressure on the barrel reviever union ! I have had one upper that shot well then got to not shooting so good. After trying several loads etc we removed the bbl to see if something was messed up. Nothing was found but when everything was put back together and torqued to spec. it went to shooting good groups and has remained doing so. Heat from fireing + pressure from the way you hold the gun can both contribute to uneven pressure on this joint , what effect does it have ?
Not sure of the ansewer or if there is one that fits all guns but it might be worth discussion ?

DANNY-L · « **Reply #17 on:** May 29, 2012, 04:57:04 AM »

I agree that preasure on certain points could effect it and I also thought that while shooting and what I did was pull the rifle tight to the shoulder and I don't touch the rifle at all with my left hand. I'm thinking with the stock I have on it now it can be a bit difficult to get consistant cheek weld each time,it's sort of like getting inconsistant anchor point with your bow will throw ya off. I'm hopeing the A2 stock might help.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** May 29, 2012, 08:02:49 AM »

I found I liked the A-2 stock better with scope use.

DANNY-L · « **Reply #19 on:** June 07, 2012, 03:42:49 AM »

Well I put an A2 stock on and that didn't help any,I then put the leupold back on,that didn't change my bad groups (pattern) I switched over and tried the sandbags and no help there either. I still need to get a friend of mine up here and give it a try,maybe something changed within myself that is throwing me off. Sooner or later it'll get figured out I hope.

DANNY-L · « **Reply #20 on:** June 07, 2012, 07:06:02 AM »

Heres a 100yd group I just did,my aiming point was the center target,3/4" bullseye. My load is
LC brass full length resized,trimmed,twice fired
benchmark 25.6gr
wsr
nosler 55gr flat base spitzer
I set the scope to 6x

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2012, 07:41:11 AM »

Quote from: DANNY-L on June 07, 2012, 07:06:02 AM

Heres a 100yd group I just did,my aiming point was the center target,3/4" bullseye. My load is
LC brass full length resized,trimmed,twice fired
benchmark 25.6gr
wsr
nosler 55gr flat base spitzer
I set the scope to 6x

the group did not show up , hope it was a good one

DANNY-L · « **Reply #22 on:** June 07, 2012, 07:49:24 AM »

Forgot to paste it in,and not so good. No scope adjustments were made,I was just trying to get a group.

Savage · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2012, 09:27:56 AM »

Low left from point on aim. Might be a good time to let someone else shoot the rifle. It's best to eliminate as many variables as possible!
Good Luck,
Savage

Bugflipper · « **Reply #24 on:** June 07, 2012, 07:15:39 PM »

Danny, my intention is not to make you look bad or anything along those lines. No need to take offense, it could be the gun, the mount out of square with the flat top, the weld spring behind the castle nut applying uneven pressure , rifling or crown damaged by jointed cleaning rod, sharp feed ramps gouging bullet when chambering, incorrectly torqued barrel nut, or any number of other causes.

I just want to address a low left group.
Sight alignment issues. That one is ruled out because you are using optics. It could apply to a dot scope, but the leupold would have ruled it out.
Not enough trigger finger. If you are pulling with the tip, folks have a tendency to jerk it a bit because there is less leverage. Try touching the first digit to the edge of the trigger. Having most of the tip hanging out the other side. pull back slowly, straight back. with concentrated even pressure.
Canting the rifle to the left. Again harder to do with crosshairs but easily done with irons or a dot if a fellow is focusing intently on the target. He may roll into the most comfortable position while rested on a bench. The round stock isn't the best for sight alignment. A lot of folks unconsciously roll the sight picture to their eye. Instead of aligning eye to sight with a consistent cheek weld.
A very nasty trigger. Most ARs have them. Instead of a smooth, slow trigger pull a lot of shooters want to yank on it because it is heavy and gritty. It can yield the same result as not enough trigger finger.
Anticipating shot/recoil of rifle. Again yanking the trigger and or involuntary flinching. No fellow will ever admit that he would flinch from a little .223, but I see it with a large number of people. The AR has an odd recoil. It kicks back a little then kicks forward a little due to the buffer going forward to cycle it. Since it is not the same as a normal rifle of just straight back, a lot of folks unknowingly try to correct the odd feeling and manhandle the gun. Just let it pop back and forward like it wants to.

If you can rule out yourself and your bolt-ons get ahold of Spikes. Let them know what's going on, what you've ruled out and so on. They are a good company that stands behind their products. Odds are a prepaid mailer will be shipped to you and you'll get it back in a few weeks with no charges.

DANNY-L · « **Reply #25 on:** June 08, 2012, 12:00:26 AM »

The one thing you mentioned,the finger tip. I use my tip as I do with all my rifles and this one aswell before I started haveing issues. Hopefully over the weekend I'll get someone here to fire it. The bore and crown appears good,I use a 1 piece rod and in between cleanings I use a boresnake with some hoppes on it and clean from the action to the muzzle. Thanks for the input and after I get a friend to shoot and if nothing is any better I will contact spikes.

tcencore3006 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 08, 2012, 01:15:11 AM »

I think I would get a new scope mount. I personally like to start with cheapest/easiest solution. I would also buy a box of some more high ammo.

DANNY-L · « **Reply #27 on:** June 08, 2012, 12:14:25 PM »

I just remembered that prior to me putting the scope back on when I removed the eotec I lapped the rings with the wheeler kit. I may be wrong but shouldn't that have made for a better fit with more contact.

DANNY-L · « **Reply #28 on:** June 10, 2012, 03:12:08 AM »

While checking it over today I grasp the barrel and the reciever and there it play back in forth in it. Looking into the chamber ya can see that the chamber actually moves when ya twist on the barrel maybe about 1/32" or so. Looks like I need to get it to the shop. Friend of mine was up also and prior to noticing this he had groups just as bad as mine,good to know it wasn't just me.

Savage · « **Reply #29 on:** June 10, 2012, 03:31:22 AM »

Great, sounds like you may have found your problem! Loose barrel nut?

Savage