Black Powder Safety

[crow_feather]

I just got an e-mail from GOEX today reguarding the topic of static setting off black powder...

Here is there reply...

Sir,

While we here at the plant do take certain precautions to guard against static problems with black powder, there have been many studies done over the years (mainly by the military) that prove that the human body can not generate enough static to set off black powder.

In my 24 years in this business there has not been one accident attributed to static of any sort. In fact the myths about black powders dangerous nature are of very little concern at the consumer level. It only takes common sense and respect when using any type of energetic material.


And there you have it, right from the top...

[swecology]

Hmmm,  I wonder if they can get me a MSDS on their FFg powder?  

This is new to me.  Goex must not be sensitive to static electricity, which is surprising.  But I beg to differ on the human body not being able to generate enough electricity to set something off.  Perhaps it can't "generate" it, but it is an excellent conductor.

I worked with low and high explosive propellants for about five years, shaping and implementing plant safety strategies guarding against Electro Static Discharge and resultant ignition.  We processed multiple tons of Sodium Azide, BKNO3, and IMR-based propellants on a daily basis.  Believe me, we paid attention to ESD.  

What the hell, I think I'll call them myself.  A MSDS showing the products characteristics might be a good place to start...

[tacks]

 Aw sweco,,this topic is beat to death too, the point is a pile of powder on paper or a  half pound in a horn,or even a few 1# can's on the floor won't be set off by static.  When ton's are processed,there is an ambiant amount of dust/particulate present that needs to be dealt with,,and that's only dangerous if the proper mix of dust and O2 are available. Commercial manufacture is alot different than end product use.
  An MSDS won't give that kind of info,,it'll give raw componant break downs only and time weighted averages for contact,flash point,flamabilty ratings, clean-up options,,and might just tell ya rat's in California may have gotten a cancer from it.(carcenogenic suspect).
 If Goex won't give ya an MSDS,,OSHA will. Your supplier should have a copy,,it's a HazMat for shipping porposes,,

[swecology]

:grin:  Yep, you're right.  The risk is low, especially if the person using the material is grounded so that any ESD is discharged - same reason when you fill your gas tank, you should touch a metal object before pumping the gas.

Problem is, BP and most other explosives carry their own oxidizer, so they don't need to be "atomized" - i.e. a fine dust - for ignition.    It's how we got a man on the moon, and the Chinese came up with fireworks.

My question, after reading Goex's response in the original post then,  (which an MSDS that is worth the paper it's written on should begin to answer) is what level of ES discharge is a concern when dealing with BP?  

Moral of the story:  Don't ever put this kind of question into a scientist's head at 10PM at night, especially one who used to deal with grounding issues and low explosives.  I just gotta find out...

[rollingb]

Now!! you fellas have got me curious!!!!!!___ so I"ve rigged up a liddle "test equipment"___ on my "left" is a pound of Goex_ which I have my left index fingger in____ and on my "right" is an open "light socket"__ which I"m gonna stick my "right" index finger in___ and "HOLY CRAP"!!!!!!!!!  thet "HURTS" and "WHER"D MY ARMS GO"


The above is "NOT" to be attemped at home without "sane supervision" and has ben found to cause "birth defects" in pregnant kaliforny wimmins!! (not to mention the "clean up" and "new house" needed afterwards!)

[Ramrod]

I have to agree with the GOEX guy, static electricity setting off black powder is an urban legend. The mountain men never heard of static electricity so it NEVER happened to them. I would like to see someone post an account of such an accident from a "RELIABLE" source. Black powder is alot safer than gasoline and most folks have alot more gas around the place than they do powder. I don't even know of a single instance where gas was set off by a static charge.
P.S. Hey rollingb, "pregnant kaliforny wimmins" have a 100% birth defect ratio already. What is gonna make it worse?

[rollingb]

Ramrod

I"ll say one thing "bout"cha____ "When yore right_ yore absolutely correct"!!  

[swecology]

Sorry guys, but I stand by my experience.  There is typically a level of electrical energy that will ignite just about every substance.  The question is what is that level?  That is what I want to know from Goex.

As for the gasoline being ignited by a spark from static electricity, I have seen the result first hand, in the Burn Ward at Maricopa County Hospital.  

Y'all go on and play the way you want to...I'll do things mine.

See ya.

[Ramrod]

rollingb......Well, I don't like to be wrong, But I NEVER want to be Politicaly Correct!

[Ramrod]

swecology, I said reliable souce. Can you document your "observation"?

[crow_feather]

At Shaker Heights Police Dept. a young man was trying to pass off a bomb with an electronic detonater as found property.  Before he could pass it off, a radio transmission from the police radio set off the blasting cap.  The biggest piece of the bomber found was part of his heel.

C F

[Roger_Dailey]

I have to agree with the GOEX guy, static electricity setting off black powder is an urban legend.

Here's some neat pictures: http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/sparks/sparks.html

[Ramrod]

Roger>GREAT PICTURES!
Crow-feather>What do electronic detonators and radio signals have to do with static electricity? Be carefull though, I heard you can set black powder off with little pieces of rock!  :-)

[Redhawk1]

I have been reloading and shooting blackpowder for years. I have never grounded myself or anything of the sort. NEVER have I had an accident or powder explode. We are not dealing with nitroglycerin here. I believe in clean reloading conditions, but I don't take it to the extreme. Good common sense works.  

[jgalar]

The old mountain men never shuffled their feet across the carpet in a warm dry house when its cold outside. I've gotten 1/2" sparks while doing so. Thats at least 30,000 volts though the amperage is extremely low. I would not want the powder between me and ground during a static discharge!

[rollingb]

Thers a heck of a big difference_ tween a spark from static electricity_ and one from a frizzen (which is as "hot" as molten metal)!!

Otherwise static electricity would burn holes in cloth and you could start fires with it!!

[swecology]

Yes, I can document what I saw, but not without eliminating the privacy of those concerned.  My apologies if I am not RELIABLE, as you say, but then again there isn't any reason to base your safety practices on my experience.  I say that sincerely.

Up until now, my posts were not meant to refute or agree with anybody in particuar.  Rather, they are meant to reflect my viewpoint only, which is that given the fact I cannot obtain data on the sensitivity of BP to ESD, I think it is prudent to treat the material with respect and a certain amount of caution until more data and information is found.  Nor was my intent to influence the way that you handle your propellants or alter your reloading habits.  My intention is to try and find out what some of the physical properties of Goex FFg are, and to point out that it was kind of odd that this information wasn't released by Goex when the inquiry was made.

Now, I ask, can you document that issue of BP being sensitive to static electricity (ESD) is -as you put it - is an urban legend?  I have seen some of the anecdotal evidence shown in other posts and other "rooms".  I do have an issue with the way the tests were done, using a dynamic current to generate the arc instead of a static charge.  I am not sure if the conditions relating to a static discharge were accurately replicated.  I am also not sure if one can duplicate the experiment, reducing the test's "robustness".   I think it is prudent to take the information posted on other websites at face value, as anecdotal evidence only, not something that does or does not establish a cause and effect relationship between the amount of current and amperage used and what is available in a static discharge vis-a-vis the ignition of Goex Black Powder.  

Likewise, I am not sure of the veracity of your comment regarding the difference between a spark from ESD and one from flint on steel.  How do you know if the energy level - measured in calories or kilocalories - is equivalent or greater?  Can you provide the data?  (I would be interested on what the numbers from an academic sense.) You can start fires with static electricity, if the charge is large enough.  It's called a forest fire ignited by a lightning strike.

When the "Mountain Men" were roaming the West, they certainly did know about static electricity.  Ben Franklin and his famous kite had long since been established, and I am sure that they had observed lighting now and then in their travels.  I am not sure what precautions they might have taken, but it stands to reason that they might have been aware of the hazard, even though it isn't well-documented.

It never hurts to look into the established data and objective literature on an issue.  If you have some, I am receptive to it and look forward to reviewing it.

Regards,
Matt

[Omnivore]

The experiment page Mr. Dailey linked to is fascinating.  Considering all I've heard about how dangerous and twitchy black powder is.  

Back in my tech school days I used a high voltage transformer simular to the one the author is using.   I remember passing a sheet of paper through the 1/2" arc.   It would just barely burn tiny little holes in the paper.  You could only see them if back lit the paper to a bright light.  It's amazing that the author could not even get the finely ground powder to ignite.

[crow_feather]

Ramrod

It has nothing to do with Blackpowder or sparks.  It just that it is hard to believe a radio transmission could set off a blasting cap.  Just as it is hard to believe that a grain silo could go sky high with a spark and not a pile of blackpowder.  It seems little difference between what flys into a frizzen and what goes from finger to ground after you slide off your truck seat on a cold dry day.  And yet, I guess there is a great difference.

[Ramrod]

swecology, An urban legend is by definition an untruth, told and re-told, but nobody can ever offer proof that it's true. You said yourself you can't find data on black powder and static electricity. Can you guess why? With almost 1000 years of useage there should be more than just some "anecdotal evidence shown in other posts and other rooms " if this sensitivity exists.

[swecology]

swecology, An urban legend is by definition an untruth, told and re-told, but nobody can ever offer proof that it's true. You said yourself you can't find data on black powder and static electricity. Can you guess why? With almost 1000 years of useage there should be more than just some "anecdotal evidence shown in other posts and other rooms " if this sensitivity exists.

Ramrod,

I never said I couldn't find data on BP and static electricity.  Please don't misquote me.   What I said is that I wanted to see what level of electrical energy it takes to ignite it, and that I wanted to see if Goex could supply that data.  Likewise, if the sensitivity doesn't exist, there ought to be available data also.  

Therefore:

From the MSDS that Goex provided earlier today comes this:
 ELECTROSTATIC DISCHARGE TEST

Bureau of Mines
      0.8 Joules (Confined)
    12.5 Joules Unconfined)

With a Joule being a measure of work, or the amount of force needed to exert one Newton for a distance of a meter.

This, along with various warnings throughout the document about the materials sensitivity to spark and to not unduly expose the material to  static electricity/charge.

Now, balance that against the phone call that I had with a gentleman at Goex about the precautions needed to handle this material safely.  Essentially, he said that the amount of grounding you obtain while standing on the ground is sufficient.Fair enough.  

I'm satisfied with how to handle the stuff safely.  I learned along time ago NOT to use rumor, urban legend, or whatever you want to call it to establish my safety practices or parameters.  That will get you hurt or killed.  If YOU want to operate that way, fine.  Just leave me out of it.

[Ramrod]

Is that a Fig-Newton? So I guess I should be carefull using black powder during a lightning storm. O.K. I'll give you that. The rest of the time I think we can forget about static discharge. And I'll leave this topic alone now.
ramrod

[Roger_Dailey]

From the MSDS that Goex provided earlier today comes this:
 ELECTROSTATIC DISCHARGE TEST

Bureau of Mines
      0.8 Joules (Confined)
    12.5 Joules Unconfined)

With a Joule being a measure of work, or the amount of force needed to exert one Newton for a distance of a meter.

  Thanks for getting those numbers.  Will you help me understand what that means in day to day terms?  For example, what sort of device(s) would generate ESD's at those levels?  
  Thanks,
  Roger D.

[tacks]

sweco,it is interesting that you found the MSDS,and please do share in common man language how "joule" applies,,serious,,I'm not teasing ,

 I'll add to rollinb's comment,about frizzen sparks,,,
 Those "sparks" are infact molten metal,,it's the hardness and cutting edge of the rock that strikes the frizzen with such sudden force as to cause friction to shave particles of the frizzen face off,,much like using a grinding wheel to cut metal. Man has known how to temper iron since just after the"bronze age" . To add carbon molicules to iron is as simple as finding a source "bone" and holding the source next to tha metal,and adding a high heat.  Pieces of bone wadded next to a spring or frizzen shaped iron in a ball of clay,tossed into a hot camp fire does a good job on small items,. Today we can temper iron in a household oven using dip products like "Kasenit"

[swecology]

Roger,

I wouldn't worry about a device generating a static charge; typically a device is going to provide a current charge that you will be aware of.  What we are concerned with is the accumulated charge of like-polarity particles in the atmosphere.  

If there is a 1:1 ratio between joules/sec and Watts, an unconfined charge will take 12.5 watts to ignite it.  Likewise, a confined charge will take .8 Watts or Joules; a Watt is the measure of how fast energy is expended doing a given job.

In other words, store it and use it away from electrical devices that show an open spark.   And as Ramrod alluded to, I wouldn't use it in a highly charged atmosphere.

Gotta go.

[rollingb]

I still consider this topic the result of "cabin fever" or sumpthin!!

Any feller what git's hit in the head by a "big ol' lightening-bolt",.... probly ain't gonna much care if the powder horn at his side,... blows up, or not!! :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  

Take solice in the "FACT",.... thet if such a thing did happen to you, and you survived the "strike" and yore powder didn't "blow",.... thet,.. "lightening never strikes TWICE in the same place"!! :mrgreen:

Let jest "ONE" teeny-weeny-liddle-spark ("red-hot-molten-metal") from yore flintlock accidently find a powderhorn, with it's "plug" left dangle'n uselessly,.... and see what "HAPPENS"!!!! :eek:  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

[Winter Hawk]

Crow Feather,

I would assume the young man used an electric blasting cap.  Depending on the length of the wire coming out, if it were at a 1/4 wavelength of the police radio frequency or a multiple thereof, it would act as a dandy antenna and fire off the blasting cap.  This happened years ago to a friend of mine.  He had punched down a well on his property near Fairbanks and wanted to blow out the screens of the driving point.  He lowered a 1/4 stick of 40% dynamite with an electric blasting cap down the well, then started unrolling the blasting wire.  When he was at a distance from the well of 1/4 the wavelength of the local radio station, which was a mile or so down the road, the powder went "BOOM."  True story.  No one got hurt.  But that still don't make static electricity set off the holy Black.

-WH-

[tacks]

TY winter Hawk,THAT I believe,,,seen it.,,
 a feller can argue up one side then down the other,,,but when ya seen it,, ya know,,,,,,
 ty wh,best wishes,tacks

[Cuts Crooked]

I know that Some B caps are designed to detonate VIA radio signal, that's fairly common, especially with older ones. (I think they've actually quit making them due to the phenomonem of cross feaquency detonation), but until recently I didn't realize how much power there is in a radio signal!  I found out the hard way that my portable police "walkie" puts out enuff to fry a PC! The Chief was not particulary pleased with my discovery! :eek: