Author Topic: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics  (Read 1950 times)

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Offline flmason

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Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« on: May 21, 2012, 07:35:45 PM »
Hi All,
   Spent some time this weekend gather photos of flintlocks to get some idea what the dimensions and geometry are like. Found a site that had a few dimensions on the hammers/cocks that give me a starting yardstick.

Was wondering if anyone know the approximate thickness of a sideplate? Not hyper critical, just has to be stiff enough, but curious none-the-less as to what was at least traditional.

Same question about width of the frizzen and the also sear/tumbler.

Most of what I was looking at where various Brown Bess incarnations.

Mainly am worried about getting the Frizzen to Flint geometry correct to get sparks and have it open... rather than say, just get jammed up, LOL!

As an aside, anyone know how well one can weld or solder with something like butane or propane?  Though I don't need to have a fancy S shaped cock, short of grinding a lot of metal off of a rather good sided chunk of steel, looks like soldering/brazing/welding the lower jaw on might be a way to go.

Not interested in historical correctness nearly as much as functional correctness. I.e. "It works good" is more important to me than, "Looks like it came out of a time machine". At least for now.

Anyone know of some good photos of separate pieces. Kind of curous about diameters of the various sections of the tumbler.

Concerning bridles, but Frizzen and tumbler... thoughts on how neccesary they are? 

Seems Trade Guns often don't have the frizzen bridle... saw one small lock... had no tumber bridle.

I'd think the tumbler bridle would have benefits of longevity of the bearing surface at the lock plate. not sure I see any advantage to the frizzen
 bridle... maybe less flex.

Thoughts?

Seems to me, if I had a decent shop, couple of days at most to get something like this made with just the most basic tools... unfortunately appartment living isn't like that... will probably take ages to make any headway, but just thinking it through. Hope to sit down with a paint or drawing program and get some dimensions figured out shortly.


Offline oldred

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 08:45:12 PM »
Not sure about actual plate thickness but the finished plate would probably need to be either machined from thicker stock or it would need several pieces welded to it. For certain you will not be able to weld with either propane or butane and for that you would need an Oxy/Acetylene rig but it would be possible to solder/braze, just not with the stronger brazing alloys like bronze unless it is an Oxygen/fuel torch. I would highly recommend the Oxygen/Acetylene set-up and if space is limited then those compact outfits used by plumbers would be just the ticket, very small tanks in a carry-around rig but with all the abilities to cut and actually weld just like the big outfits.

Offline gunnut69

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 06:22:59 PM »
I believe your refering to the lockplate as the sideplate is just a washer that keeps the lockbolts from sinking into the stock.. They range from sheet metal (1/8-1/16) to 1/4 inch plus that allows bolt head counter sinking. Lockplates are roughly 1/8 to 3/16 with a shelf  to the inside at the top that spaces the lockplate out to provide clearance for the tumbler and bridle. Sears can be almost any width (tumbler thickness) that will withstand the impact stresses. Thicker tumblers allow a bit more room for a fly, to allow set trgger use.  I would stay around 3/8 inch or so.. Bridles are a later developement to help with longevity,,both tumbler and frizzen. Trade guns were built for max proffit with no warrantee. Both are highly reccommended. Hammers/frizzens generated the sizes of flints produced for them to use. Musket flints are the largest 5/8 to nearly 3/4 inches..in width. Rifle flints are more like 1/2 inch in width.. The hammer/frizzen relationship is in most basic terms is the intersection of three arcs, the hammer arc intersects the frizzens arc of movement at the curved (arched) face of the frizzen. The longer the flint is in contact with frizzen as it begins moving and the hammer continues rotating the more sparks are generated.. a good thing.. Just an observation, there are many kits available to create many of the differing types of locks. Most are very reasonably priced with quite high quality components, why not eliminate most of the scut work and just assemble one of these kits.. You will get a good view of the knowledge needed to create a good sparking lock..
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Offline Rangr44

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 02:41:04 AM »
[why not eliminate most of the scut work and just assemble one of these kits..]
 
Because some folks would rather re-invent the wheel, just for the heck of it.  ;)
 
Or why folks keep climbing Mt.Everest - because it's there.................... :D
 
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Offline oldred

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 03:43:58 AM »
[Because some folks would rather reinvent the wheel, just for the heck of it.]


Some folks would rather actually build a rifle as opposed to simply assembling one!

 By far most rifle/pistol "builds" are not builds at all but rather just an assembly of factory made parts, there is a huge difference in meaning between actually crafting a firearm from raw material and just assembling one from available factory parts, building one from scratch is apparently what the OP is proposing to do and I applaud him for that! There is a gun shop near here that has some VERY expensive "hand built" muzzleloaders that except for the stock have almost nothing "hand built" in them! The fellow who "builds" them is a very talented wood worker and stock builder but these rifles should be called "custom built" not "hand built" IMO. My High Wall replica was built from scratch, not assembled from factory parts, I even made the screws and springs and the wood came from a walnut tree that was about to be cut up for fire wood before I found it! I really admire the OP's determination and I see clearly what he is wanting to do.

Offline Anduril

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 07:43:45 AM »
Hi All,
.......

  Anyone know of some good photos of separate pieces. Kind of curous about diameters of the various sections of the tumbler.

Try a paper copy of the "Track of the Wolf" catalog. It has full size pics of locks and the various internal parts for those of us wanting to re-build or repair a muzzleloader.
..
 

Offline oldred

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 08:29:47 AM »
Also there is of course Dixie Gun Works which is a excellent source for raw materials or individual finished parts. Dixie has many semi-finished and fully finished components plus a large assortment of raw stock such as sheet steel, brass, etc and also spring stock of about any commonly available thickness.

Offline gunnut69

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2012, 02:14:05 PM »
I don't know guys but the kits I've been involved with were primarily castings. Some had more already accomplished than others but with flmasons circumstances the kits would provide something to learn from and work on with very little outlay of cash and no major machines. Although a drill press would great..files, sandpaper, drills, taps etc..  Could almost be a kitchen table project.. Yet the how and why, the geometry of the mechanism would be in his hand..better than anything we can 'tell him'. IMHO
 
gunnut69--
The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States of America-
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Offline oldred

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2012, 02:23:43 PM »
but with flmasons circumstances the kits would provide something to learn from and work on with very little outlay of cash and no major machines.


Very good point and I have to admit that determination alone might not be enough. Building from a kit or selected parts from Track-of-the-Wolf or DGW can provide a wealth of insight into what is involved in doing this and with a much greater chance of success, scratch building could come later since there is no law against building more than one!!!

Offline flmason

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 10:22:28 PM »
Yes, I have looked at the castings and kits. Even looked on ebay for used locks to use as a pattern, the idea being, to be able to fabricate a working lock, with a little special tooling or processes as possible. But... wanting to actually work, LOL! So a working model in hand, isn't a bad idea. A bit of extra expense if the idea were just a finished working gun. But am hoping taking good measurements from decent photos would suffice.

A second objective is to be able to do it with commonly available materials, as in... walk out this morning, drive around town, come back with what I need by the afternoon, LOL!

Which admittedly is way different from what the typical builder does. They usually have some idea of perfection they are chasing. I'm asking... "can I make a working safe gun that doesn't need commercial priming or even commercial powder... with the barest minimum of tooling and process?"

Why, I dunno. Same challenge as an archer going out and collecting a stave from the woods and making a self bow I guess.

On looking things over, looked to me like the early locks without frizzen nor tumbler bridles would be the easiest, but the possibility of the tumbler getting wobbly might make the extra work worthwhile... yet the much vaunted Hawkens didn't have frizzen bridles IIRC.

I've attached a no bridle pic, though I've been focusing many on Brown Bess Locks. Since I expect to buy the barrel for safety reasons, unless I can pick apart this idea of seamless tubing and how to do a safe breech plug, I'm thinking I want to go .75 cal.

Seems to me tumbler with no bridle means I have to do something to the back of the cock to essentially "sandwich, without binding" the lock plate. I'm thinking the the extra work to do a Bess style bridle (without the fancy shaping in my case, I actually prefer less frilly) might payoff in longer service life without headaches.

Also attached a "Banana Bess" for reference, though I'll probably go with a later straight style.

Looks like the overall dimensions from what I read are 7" x 1.25" approx... so that should give me a yardstick for measurement. I read the lock throw is either 1.810-ish or 1.875-ish depending on the exact variant.

Anyone know the diameter of the hole on the Brown Besses? I think most of the screws are 8-32 shoulder screw types.

Admittedly, give a decent shop I'd just turn up any screw I though I wanted too, but standard shoulder screw sizes strike me as a good expediency here.

That right there is the biggest issue in the whole idea... knowing what's commonly available and if it will work, vrs. being able to quickly fabricate each part as one sees fit. I mean really, with even just a mildly equipped workshop, assuming the materials on hand and drawings already worked out. It should be a two day project to do the lock, I'd think. It a pretty basic device. But... saying... gonna do it with a hacksaw, some files... etc. may take a long time. Hope to get out and survey some materials this weekend or next, work and my energy levels permitting.

Were I still back in Iowa, already had scoped out sources for most of the materals. Now that I'm over in the west, gotta do that recon all over again, LOL! Been thinking about this or maybe doing a break action for a long time, LOL!

To be honest, I I thought I could do it safely, I'd probably do one of those Richardson Guerilla Guns, LOL!

No doubt there's somewhat of a survivalist angle in the back of my mind, despite it being patently silly, I suppose, especially at my age.


Offline gunnut69

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2012, 04:28:04 PM »
Honestly pard what's the difference in the various size locks? Other than the geometry must allow the hammer to reach the frizzen, etc, sizes don't matter.. 8x32 screws should available at most hardware stores, the locks shoulder can be screwed to the lock plate and the bridle can be any shape that will hide behind the lock plate. The whole lock can be made from mild steel,  available at hardware stores and most farm-and-homes. You will need case hardening powder which is carried by Brownells, and places like Dixie. or.. If the survivalist mentality is operating then there are instructions for hardening using things as primitive as clay and a bit leather or bone chips, combined with fire and water..to be found on the internet..  Of course the homemade gunpowder will be the tricky part..
gunnut69--
The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States of America-
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Offline flmason

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2012, 08:14:27 PM »
Honestly pard what's the difference in the various size locks? Other than the geometry must allow the hammer to reach the frizzen, etc, sizes don't matter.. 8x32 screws should available at most hardware stores, the locks shoulder can be screwed to the lock plate and the bridle can be any shape that will hide behind the lock plate. The whole lock can be made from mild steel,  available at hardware stores and most farm-and-homes. You will need case hardening powder which is carried by Brownells, and places like Dixie. or.. If the survivalist mentality is operating then there are instructions for hardening using things as primitive as clay and a bit leather or bone chips, combined with fire and water..to be found on the internet..  Of course the homemade gunpowder will be the tricky part..

No doubt the differences in sizes is just a matter of scale. My focus on dimensions is more about getting the geometry, apart from absolute measurements, correct... so it sparks and doesn't, for example, have the flint strike the frizzen and it won't open all the way or some thing like that.

The main advantages I think the larger Bess size lock will give are durability, and bigger parts to work with. Of course it may really be minimal I guess a 6" long fowler lock or a 7" Bess? Not a lot I suppose. Just more room to work. 

Actually the "simplicity" mentality is at work as much as anything else. Well that and impatience with setbacks. Measure twice, cut once and all that. Then leave lots of margin for error! LOL! The less critical fit areas the better. The idea to to get it to work with as little rework as possible, and the need for as few tools and parts as possible. For example... why buy two different sizes of tap, if one will work? Not that it matters truly. I mean a $150 H&R 12 gauge will be far superior to anything I do in this fashion until the day does arrive that I can do a shop of some sort again. No doubt the materials and tools are going to exceed that if I get everything retail.

I've settled on a sidelock, flintlock, smoothbore because I figure it is the most flexible and least dependant on things you have to buy once it's made. The flint does away with the need for fussing with primers or caps. With a trade off in convenience and weather resistance of course. Everyone here knows the pros and cons of different eras of firearm, I'm quite sure. :)

Definitely a do-able project though. Had given some thought to doing it first in hardwood or plexiglass just as R&D on geometry. I think the story goes, Sam Colt whittled the model for his first revolver.

What I see as the most problematic parts are the cock and frizzen... they need the thickest steel. Not sure what's easy to get locally. So I've been debating methods of building both from thicker plate stock.

So's just a lot of debating with myself and shop talk here for the moment. Once I get some rough drawings (probably real rough, like PC-paint rough) will post them for folks to look at and critique. :)

P.S. On the hardening... will probably just try oil quench first. Not sure if that's any good or not. Watched my father do it that way 40 years ago though.
 

Offline oldred

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2012, 03:23:30 AM »

P.S. On the hardening... will probably just try oil quench first. Not sure if that's any good or not. Watched my father do it that way 40 years ago though.


You cannot harden mild steel by heating and quenching, high carbon or steels with certain alloys are required for this. Gunnut is right about needing a hardening powder such as "Cherry Red" (a brand of hardening powder) or "Kasenit" but Kasenit is getting hard to find and I have heard it is out of production due to toxicity concerns, I know it contained cyanide compounds. The old way to do this, and still a common way today, before alloy steels was to pack the part(s) in an airtight steel box packed with carbon usually in the form of charcoal made from wood and or bone. The entire steel box is then heated  to a bright red hot in a forge or oven and kept that hot for one to two hours and sometimes even longer then removed and the contents dumped into a cold water quench. This process is known as case hardening because it only hardens the outside of the part a few thousandths thick and leaves the inside metal soft, this way the part becomes hard enough for wear resistance but still retains the original strength and impact resistance. Alloy steels can be heated red hot and quenched immediately in oil or water (depending on the alloy for oil or water) but they will become hard all the way through leaving them very brittle and prone to break so another heating to a lower temperature and re-quenching is required, sometimes depending on the alloy this tempering process of the hardened steel will require either quenching or allowing to air cool. Hardening alloy steels can obviously get quite complicated with somewhat differing procedures depending on the desired hardness vs tensile and impact strength. Case hardening of mild steel is well within the options of the home craftsman if the hardening powder is used but one problem with that method is that the part will have a very thin hard shell only about 3 or 4 thousandths thick so the finished part cannot be filed and only lightly sanded after hardening. Any of these procedures are however not for attempting in an apartment, I guess theoretically the powder hardening method could be done but that stuff makes a lot of smoke and stinks unbearably, unless you want a visit from the fire department I wouldn't recommend trying it!   



Hardening and tempering of certain parts such as springs or other small parts, hammers, sears, etc could be done without much fuss/mess using a small torch and water quench but they would have to be made from high carbon/alloy steels in order to do this. The problem with using these steels is that not only would it get complicated in finding the right procedure, proper temperature, etc but these steels are usually quite a bit harder and more difficult to work than mild steel even in their annealed state. 

Offline oldred

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2012, 03:25:21 AM »
Not sure what the dickens I am doing wrong to cause these multiple posts?

Offline oldred

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Re: Flintlock - Side plate Thinkness, other topics
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2012, 03:26:13 AM »
Double post, sorry about that!