Author Topic: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?  (Read 1566 times)

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Offline PineyCreek22

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Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« on: May 22, 2012, 06:02:17 PM »
What would be the best dia. cast lead bullet for a barrel with a .375 bore that will be chambered for the 38-55 cartridge?  Thanks for your help. :)
custom .357 mag monoblock, custom 30-30 Handi

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 03:28:44 AM »
Generally speaking  .001-.002 over groove diameter is the best place to be with cast bullets.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline Veral

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2012, 06:59:00 PM »
  You have asked a question to Veral of Lead Bullet Technology.  NOT GENERAL lead bullet information.  In other words I don't like the advise given by Ranch 13.

  Using 'general' information with cast bullets will yield a bunch of shooters who can generally hit the target, but not all of them will be able to , and few if any will get top drawer performance.

  On the other hand, with specifiec, scientific answers and precision knowledgable cast bullet fitting, and good cast bullet design, almost all rifles will give precision accruacy, while those that won't can normally be fixed by the lay person quite easily.

  Now to properly answer Piney Creek 22.    The best diameter for a cast bullet in any gun, be it rifle or handgun, is a diameter that holds the bullet as straight as the gun is capable of while it is entering the rifling.  For the straight wall rifle cases like your 38-55, which  'generally' have an abrupt taper from case into rifling, getting this alignment means a close chamber fit.  A bullet fat enough to swell the case till it will barely slip into the chamber.   I hope you noticed my use of the word 'generally' above.  Not all of them have such abrupt throats.  Every gun is an individual.  Measure it and know for sure.  Let me fit a bullet that fits exactly.  Then go out and fine tune a load  and you'll be able to win matches, or just load any ol load you want that generates safe pressures and get far better accuracy with all of them than the 'general' cast bullet shooter gets with his best performers.

  I hope my point is clear.       If not it is more quickly stated this way.  We can't get precision accuracy without precision in every detail up till the primer pops.  That's what LBT is here for, and enjoying doing for the last 32 years.
Veral Smith

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 03:52:27 AM »
Veral hopefully we'll see you at Raton in August for the bptr championships.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline Veral

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 05:25:21 PM »
  It would be nice if I could travel around to the various shoots, but I've never been able to do it, and in fact have never had my feet on a shooting range of any kind.   Some of my readers would call me a country boy, I reckon.   For the last 32 years I've been able to shoot out the back door any time I want without bothering anyone, even if I'm popping caps with a magnum rifle.
Veral Smith

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2012, 02:24:01 AM »
I can shoot up to a mile and a half from the hill behind my house. If I go to my south pasture it would be possible to shoot to 3 miles.
I enjoy going to shoots in other places when I can. The learning experience from shooting at different locations with different conditions at ranges different from what one is comfortable at home ,is great.Not to mention the chance to visit with like minded shooters from across the country and around the world.
Over the course of years at various shoots especially the long range stuff, one learns that even if a bullet shoots good at 200 yds, it may not even be able to hit a 6ft target at 4, loads that work good at 800 may fall completely apart at 900, and 1000 yd shooting with cast bullets and iron sights really teach one the importance of truly accurate loads, good bullets, and puts the Q in quality of sights, and really teaches the importance of follow thru.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 03:00:38 AM »
Veral, with this in mind:

"The best diameter for a cast bullet in any gun, be it rifle or handgun, is a diameter that holds the bullet as straight as the gun is capable of while it is entering the rifling....   .......A bullet fat enough to swell the case till it will barely slip into the chamber."

What is the LARGEST diameter bullet one might fire through a given bore diameter of .375 for this caliber?  I too have always heard the general rule of thumb of .001 to .002 inches over the bore size but I've never heard an extreme diameter given.  It is common with the .38-55 (especially the H&R rifles) to see overbores with undersized chambers or visa versa.  What if the chamber is large with a tighter bore?  Any thoughts on that?  Basically, how big of a bullet can be fired down a tighter sized bore?

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2012, 03:06:40 AM »
Blackhawker in the old Ideal load books they said that .001-.002 over groove diameter bullets were to be preferred, and that going beyond .003 will cause finning and cupping of the base and loss of accuracy.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2012, 05:13:07 AM »
Blackhawker in the old Ideal load books they said that .001-.002 over groove diameter bullets were to be preferred, and that going beyond .003 will cause finning and cupping of the base and loss of accuracy.

Even with gas checks? 
My thought has been (and may be wrong) that anything over .003 might drastically increase pressure and might make a load unsafe.  ???
I'm not really sure, hence why I asked the question.  I thought it might give more info in the answer to the original poster's question as well.

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 06:18:20 AM »
Given a cast bullet even with a gascheck I don't believe going over .003 will drastically change the pressures, otherwise shooting 454+ bullets out of a modern 45 colt might be cause for all manner of gun disasters. As to the gascheck if it is to far on the large size for the bore diameter it will be drug off somewhere on it's trip down the bore, and hopefully falls out the muzzle end before the next round comes down the tube.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 06:20:35 AM »
I'd imagine this to be the case with revolvers.  I guess my question was more to the lines of .375 to .380 diameter 38-55's as is the original poster's question.

Given a cast bullet even with a gascheck I don't believe going over .003 will drastically change the pressures, otherwise shooting 454+ bullets out of a modern 45 colt might be cause for all manner of gun disasters. As to the gascheck if it is to far on the large size for the bore diameter it will be drug off somewhere on it's trip down the bore, and hopefully falls out the muzzle end before the next round comes down the tube.

Offline Veral

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 05:26:24 PM »
  There is a bit of error in thinking here.  The facts are as follows.

  Given the load has enough pressure to obturate the bullet hardness being used, the bullet upsets and fills the cartridge tightly, while the cartridge is tightly pressed against the chamber walls,  BEFORE THE BULLET EVEN STARTS MOVING OUT OF THE CASE.
   Knowing this answers all the questions which have been asked here.  Pressure doesn't change with bullet diameter when shooting cast. Because chamber pressure with any loads which might leave a pressure concern, the bullet is a tight fit before it starts moving.   (Jacketed are different critters, and diameter does change pressure.)

  Therefore, gas checks and bullet bases will be deformed the least if the bullet is fitted as closely as possible to the chamber and throat.  If it is undersize before firing, both gas check and base will expand and go out of square while doing so, then be sized back down to groove diameter as it enters the rifling.   When a close fit to start there is no out of balance slumping of the bullet, just the sizing as it comes down to barrel size.     ----   So, tight chambered guns will be more accurate than those with sloppy chambers, but sloppy chambered guns will turn in their best accuracy with bullets fitted as outlined above.

  About gas checks coming off inside the barrel.   Major error in thinking here, and the first writer I know of who is probably the one who started the idea, was Elmer Keith, no less.   Facts here are, that with a 44, the one Elmer was concerned about, there is 4 tons of pressure against the check at maximum chamber pressure, and this pressure never falls below a ton while the bullet is still inside the gun, with stout loads.  Very light loads it might drop to as little as 400 pounds which in my imagination seems to be enough pressure to keep the check, not just moving with the bullet, but PROPELLING THE BULLET!     Solid facts here me friends.  Nip the myth in the bud from now on whenever you hear it.  When explained this way to anyone with a basic understanding of mechanical things it will be clear as crystal, and no arguments.    Want a little more scientfic explaination?   Calculate the square inch area of the base of whatever bullet you are interested in, and multiply by whatever you think muzzle pressure might be.  Very few loads in centerfire rifles drop below 10,000 psi, as I remember it, from writings some years ago.

  By the way.  Elmer stated that gas checks got knocked off as they left the cylinder and entered the barrel throat.   ---   Fact is, with heavy loads they rivit out and fill the huge sloppy throats in modern revolvers, then get sized back down to barrel size.  The powder blast coming out of a .005 cylinder gap will slit your fingers if you ever get them up there while you drop the hammer.  Even from a 22 LR round which has a max chamber pressure somewhere around only 10,000 psi.
  If you ever make the mistake of learning this the hard way, you will never again doubt that gas checks are clamped on pretty tight, and doing ALL the work of pushing the bullet out the barrel!
Veral Smith

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2012, 02:40:59 AM »
 :D Veral you need to sometime just go to someplace like the Quigley match, where gas checks are allowed, and when the firing lines are closed walk and watch just ahead of the firing line , just a couple of feet. You may be surprised at the number of gaschecks you can find laying right there within a few feet of where the muzzle was.
 As to under sized bullets..... spend some time shooting bullets paper patched to bore diameter.. That bit of experience can drasticaly rearrange a fella's thinking about bullet fit.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline srussell

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2012, 01:40:10 PM »
i would think that for the bullet and gas check to separate in the barrel, the bullet would need to be going faster than the gas check.

Offline Ranch13

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 01:53:39 PM »
While they may not completely seperate in the barrel, if something should severely compromise the fit to the bullet , once the pressure of the gases is released at the muzzle the bullet will travel on , while the gascheck due to its' shape and mass will loose momentum immediately. That's why you can find those or filler wads etc anywhere from 2-30 ft in front of the muzzle.
In the 1920's "sheeple" was a term coined by the National Socialist Party in Germany to describe people that would not vote for Hitler. In the 1930's they held Hitler as the only one that would bring pride back to Germany and bring the budget and economy back.....

Offline Blackhawker

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Re: Cast bullet dia. for .375 (38-55) barrel?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2012, 02:54:19 AM »
I've been shooting gas checked bullets from my 38-55's for about four or five years now.  I've probably fired at least 2000 or more of em from that caliber and more from some additional calibers as well.  I've never found, heard, or seen any evidence of a gas check separating from a bullet.  I've even used them in my 454 SRH and I've heard that some jackets from thinner jacketed bullets can strip off of the bullet from the extreme pressure, yet I haven't seen a gas check come off in it either.  I'm not too worried about gas checks separating from bullets.

Back to the original topic; Veral, thanks for the info and insight on max bullet diameter sizes.