War - what is it good for?

[rio grande]

“Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
“War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.
“In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.

- James Madison, fourth President of the United States

There is such a thing as a 'Just War', but it is defensive and to be used only as a last resort after serious deliberation and/or prayer. Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan never qualified as Just Wars.


Criteria for a Just War.

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

[lakota]

you forgot to mention that Bush Doctrine is now Obama Doctrine as he has continued the existing wars as well as start new ones. My area sure has seen a lot of flag draped caskets recently for wars that are supposed to be winding down.

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[Empty Quiver]

“Of all the enemies of true liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
“War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.
“In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.

- James Madison, fourth President of the United States

There is such a thing as a 'Just War', but it is defensive and to be used only as a last resort after serious deliberation and/or prayer. Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan never qualified as Just Wars.


Criteria for a Just War.

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

As the aggressor why would you attempt anything less than lasting , grave and certain? Why bother to attack?  criteria met


The history of economic sanctions against terrorist organizations? How do you embargo an organization?  I didn't see any procceedings from summit meetings with the scumba  er,  combatants, so possibly the criteria has not been met.


By all accounts Al kieda seems to be having a bad decade. Those who were offering safe harbour have had an equally bad decade. You can argue as to win or lose if you like but the ME has ad a shi  er,   lousy decade.   Successful I believe


I suppose you need to define who decides what evil is to be eliminated and who judges the disorder now don't you. Compared to a Arc Light strike, on an area suspected of harbouring terrorists a drone attack is quite civilized and rather whimpy, wouldn't you agree?   Again criteria met.


Now had the World Trade Center not been leveled, the Pentagon not attacked, and an airliner not crashed in an attempt to use it in an aggressive manner, I don't believe war would have been waged. Had those countries who were harboring terrorist organizations eliminated or turned over said terrorists I don't believe war would have been waged.


A very simple idea. Don't start none and there won't be none. Perhaps you could forward that concept to your ME friends. The tradition does not seem to have taken hold in that part of the world.

[Doublebass73]

• there must be serious prospects of success;

The Soviet military, 2nd best in the world at that time left Afghanistan as the losers after a decade long quagmire. We learned nothing from their experience.

The U.S. Military, best in the world is getting ready to leave Afghanistan as the losers after a decade long quagmire.

Criteria not met

[jimster]

I keep track best I can on whats going on over there, Michigan NG is there, both the 125th and the 126th...
126th got hit pretty bad.  War is good for nothing unless there is a REAL threat, which I don't see.  Good men are being wasted there in my opinion.  Hope our family member comes home soon...all in one piece, with all his buddies.  We are trying to get more info on the 126th, Ryan's best buddy is in that group, no word on Sam yet.  I went down south to see Sam get all done with his basic training in the 126th cavalry. Sure hope he's OK.  Sounds like some are not OK.  We are saying some prayers here for all of them. 
 
http://www.freep.com/article/20120523/COL32/120523055/Michigan-National-Guard-1-126th-Cavalry

[magooch]

If you think war is bad, try capitulation to the forces of evil.  War should be fought quickly and horrendously--with the most efficient means possible.  Not with ground troops.

[lakota]

  ...War should be fought quickly and horrendously--with the most efficient means possible.  Not with ground troops.

Absolutely right. We dont do this anymore because it is not "PC" but if you think about it fighting all out as horrible as it may sound probably saves many lives in the long run.
 
If you have to fight then go all out and break the enemy as quickly as possible.

[rio grande]

If you think war is bad, try capitulation to the forces of evil.  War should be fought quickly and horrendously--with the most efficient means possible.  Not with ground troops.

I'm not advocating capitulation to evil.  In fact, just the opposite.  If you think, for instance, it was OK to bomb Dresden or Hiroshima the way 'we' did you yourself have already capitulated to evil.
When wars are necessary and defensive then they are justified. 
But even then, morality precludes actions during war that are evil in themselves, such as torture of prisoners, use of indiscriminate weapons, targeting civilians, etc.

Distinction 
  Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of distinction. The acts of war should be directed towards enemy combatants, and not towards non-combatants    caught in circumstances they did not create. The prohibited acts include bombing civilian residential areas that include no military target and committing acts of terrorism or reprisal against civilians.
Proportionality
Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of proportionality. An attack cannot be launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality).
 Military necessity
Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of minimum force. An attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy, it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. This principle is meant to limit excessive and unnecessary death and destruction.
 Fair treatment of prisoners of war
Enemy soldiers who surrendered or who are captured no longer pose a threat. It is therefore wrong to torture them or otherwise mistreat them.
 No means malum in se
Soldiers may not use weapons or other methods of warfare which are considered as evil, such as mass rape, forcing soldiers to fight against their own side or using weapons whose effects cannot be controlled (e.g. nuclear weapons).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

[KIMBER45]

War- what is it good for? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX7V6FAoTLc

[nessmuk101]

If we still had the draft, this would have been over 8 years ago. 
 
When congress abolished the draft, they opened the door for unopposed warfare any place they wanted without opposition from anyone by playing the patriotic card.

[gypsyman]

Tell that to the other guy!! The ones that usually start them. gypsyman

[nw_hunter]

What is war good for?
Most of us at the level we see war, don't have a clue about the reason for it.We only know we must try and survive if we are sent into harms way!Everyone on the forum has an opinion "including myself, but I would think this guy had a much better grasp on the subject.

General Smedley Butler USMC

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."[/size]In another often cited quote from the book Butler says:[/size]I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for [/size]Big Business[/size], for [/size][/color]Wall Street[/font][/size] and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make [/size][/color]Mexico[/font][/size] and especially [/size][/color]Tampico safe[/font][/size] for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make [/size][/color]Haiti[/font][/size] and [/size][/color]Cuba[/font][/size] a decent place for the [/size][/color]National City Bank[/font][/size] boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen [/size][/color]Central American[/font][/size]republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped [/size][/color]purify Nicaragua[/font][/size] for the [/size][/color]International Banking House[/font][/size] of [/size][/color]Brown Brothers[/font][/size] in 1902-1912. I brought light to the [/size][/color]Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916[/font][/size]. I helped [/size][/color]make Honduras right[/font][/size]for the [/size][/color]American fruit companies[/font][/size] in 1903. In [/size][/color]China in 1927[/font][/size] I helped see to it that [/size][/color]Standard Oil[/font][/size] went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given [/size][/color]Al Capone[/font][/size] a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

[/size]"QUOTE" Out of wars a (FEW) people make huge fortunes!
If you owned a company that could profit from a war then it was good for you! At least monetarily!.For the majority, war is good for nothing.
I think Butler had a better understanding of war than those of us on a political forum.He was there many times. At a position to see the reasons behind it.[/i]

[KIMBER45]

Go to youtube and see what George Carlin has to say about war. Some of the words used are not allowed here.

[Doublebass73]

War Pigs, still very relevant 42 years after it came out:

[yellowtail3]

• there must be serious prospects of success;

The Soviet military, 2nd best in the world at that time left Afghanistan as the losers after a decade long quagmire. We learned nothing from their experience.

The U.S. Military, best in the world is getting ready to leave Afghanistan as the losers after a decade long quagmire.

Criteria not met

Probably not. I'm guessing the Russians take some grim pleasure in this.

  ...War should be fought quickly and horrendously--with the most efficient means possible.  Not with ground troops.

Absolutely right. We dont do this anymore because it is not "PC" but if you think about it fighting all out as horrible as it may sound probably saves many lives in the long run.
 
If you have to fight then go all out and break the enemy as quickly as possible.

Who should we fight all out against right now? And what is it that is 'PC' that you think should be tried? Nukes against Afghan civilians, or what?

[magooch]

No, Afghanistan is not worth wasting a nuke on.  Carpet bombing known Alqaida and Taliban locations would be alright, though.
 
A well placed nuke, or two may become necessary in Iran and North Korea to get their attention. 

[guzzijohn]

It always amazes me how quick some on this board are to use the nuke option. I really do not think those that support that have a (censored word) clue as to the world wide repercussions of using a pre-emptive nuke strike. Best be prepared to become a very isolated nation with little trade, way more terrorism events on our soil, if not even military retaliations by Russia, China, etc. Then you have the environmental effects too.
GuzziJohn

[nw_hunter]

No, Afghanistan is not worth wasting a nuke on.  Carpet bombing known Alqaida and Taliban locations would be alright, though.
 
A well placed nuke, or two may become necessary in Iran and North Korea to get their attention.

LOL! Sounds like something General's......Buck Turgidson or Jack D. Ripper would carry out

[lakota]

who said anything about nukes?
And do you seriously think that 10 years of endless war by half measures is less costly in terms of life that a brief intense war? I happen to think all of these current wars are a sham but if you are going to fight then quit worrying about what anyone else thinks and finish it as quickly as possible.
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[guzzijohn]

Quote from lakota:
"who said anything about nukes?"

Quote from magooch:
"A well placed nuke, or two may become necessary in Iran and North Korea to get their attention"

[lakota]

my bad

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[finisher]

What is war good for?
Most of us at the level we see war, don't have a clue about the reason for it.We only know we must try and survive if we are sent into harms way!Everyone on the forum has an opinion "including myself, but I would think this guy had a much better grasp on the subject.

General Smedley Butler USMC

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."In another often cited quote from the book Butler says:I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central Americanrepublics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras rightfor the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

"QUOTE" Out of wars a (FEW) people make huge fortunes!
If you owned a company that could profit from a war then it was good for you! At least monetarily!.For the majority, war is good for nothing.
I think Butler had a better understanding of war than those of us on a political forum.He was there many times. At a position to see the reasons behind it.

*********
What you posted here, along with the links is probably about one of the most comprehensive and simplest pieces of information regarding what its all about.
 
I have given up at being angry and frustrated at those who do not SEE and I do not spend too much time anymore trying to make people see. The term "Gods CHILDREN"  always comes to mind with regards to the mentality of most people IN GENERAL when discussing the three hot ones ; War, Religion, and Politics.
 
I am a continual student of psychology (among other subjects on the side) and although I constantly strive to keep my mind FREE and above the mass influence, I often feel helpless to help others in order to bring about a better world and future.
 
I'm not perfect. You'll never meet someone with more prejudisms, ready to take a swing. Yet I try to evolve and to UNDERSTAND. But I'm....tired...trying to maintain the higher ground in a sea of haterd, ignorance, and evil greed is taxing on ones soul.
 
I UNDERSTAND why people think (or don't think) the way they do. The influences that are at work upon the psyche of the public, not just American but all over the world are so powerful. HOW DOES ONE MAN FIGHT THAT?
 
People are too plugged in, too distracted, misdirected.
 
When I went into the service, I was as gung ho as they came; a young war mongering goon and almost from one day to the next something in me flipped like a switch and I'm still not completely sure why.
 
I wasn't traumatized by what I've seen (at least I don't think. LA kind of gave me a pre numbing) but it was like I went into a blank then snapped out of it and said to myself "what am I doing hear?" "I don't belong hear!" "This is wrong.".
 
It was all suddenly very clear, the motives, the players, the "PROFITEERS" (I always thought it was illegal to be a war profiteer).
 
My whole belief system cracked at that time in my life. I was lost. And yet in my mind I had never felt more liberated and powerful. It took me some time to adjust. Civilian life is still very chaotic and senseless to me. But so is war.
 
I'm just curious NW Hunter; When and how did you have your awakenig?
 
I ask only because I sometimes feel like the only person within a thousand miles that sees the world the way I do and thinks the things about OUR society and system that I do. I hold back quite alot when writing my true thoughts because I don't want to get "cyber lynched".
 
What is war GOOD for...?   ... maybe being used in schools as the most comprehensive and definitive example of a lack of imagination; inability of a collective to think independently; failure to evolve... I don't know.
 
Thanks for the info NW.

[Swampman]

War provides employment for those of us who are poor....that's all that matters.  Nothing wrong with it.

[ironglow]

  The continuous condemnation crowd is really a hoot !  They fault our own country continuously..while giving our current, most savage enemies a complete pass !!  Obviously, there is no more malevolent, evil and wicked force operating today...than the hate-driven Muslim murderers around the globe.. but the condemnation crowd gives them a completely free ride.
   These condem-nation types even dredge up ancient history (comparative) in order to condemn this nation... here's what  one of them  claims:
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
  " I'm not advocating capitulation to evil.  In fact, just the opposite.  If you think, for instance, it was OK to bomb Dresden or Hiroshima the way 'we' did you yourself have already capitulated to evil.
When wars are necessary and defensive then they are justified. 
But even then, morality precludes actions during war that are evil in themselves, such as torture of prisoners, use of indiscriminate weapons, targeting civilians, etc"
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
  In fact the last sentence outlines the very tactics of their chosen "protected class"..
 
   It is gratifying indeed to hear a sinless human speak from such a lofty position....       

[mcwoodduck]

Bush Doctirne = pre-emptive war = offensive wars...A Just War is extinct.  All you need is a false flag match...maybe just WMD threats. Throw in the spectre of a 'perfect enemy' and bingo_ _you got your war.
.
War is good for a select group involved with the MIC-Intel complex and the global banking dictarorship to get incrediblely wealthy while dropping fascism down on the heads of We-the-People. It is never good for the general welfare of the citizens who are forced to sacrifice.
.
..TM7

That is ODD as Bill and Hillary Clinton were saying the same thing that Sadam was developing WMDs and that something needed to be done about it.
So if Bush was about the war than so were the Clintons.
At the same time Iraq did a few things. 
A) it freeded a few million people from a visious dictator and his sons.   And Freedom was allowed.  Free People are less likly to hate and to lash out.  Starving oppressed people do lash out at who they are told is the problem. 
B) the torture and rape rooms were closed
C) The global war on terror was brought to a head and it was easier to kill terrorists with the army than trying to kill or stop them here in the US with police.
D) since both Clinton and Bush thought that Sadam had WMDs and was conspiring with Al Queda to set up training camps  they thought that Sadam would give WMDs to the Terrorists or the Terrorists would topple Sadam and have access to them.
TM7, I understand you hate Bush and that Companies, profits, energy, natural resources, and free will are the enemies of Liberalism.  I can understand how you thought that a dictator system was a good one as that is the liberal model.  The liberal model is to demonize others for the failures of the program and that one or a group knows what is best for everyone else.

[magooch]

All true and well said Mr. mcwoodduck.
 
I guess the only proper course for some guys here is to surrender, or make nice with those who stomp on us.  Lacota is exactly right in saying that in the long run, more lives would be saved with the use of no restraints war.  Anyway, what's the difference whether you kill your enemy with a nuke, or with a 30 caliber bullet.  Dead is dead and that is what war is about.
 
You have to be realist enough to accept that there are bad people in this world and those bad people sometimes are going to turn their evil on you.  You either fight back and survive, or you don't.  My theory is that you be on record as being too terrible to mess with.

[mcwoodduck]

MCWD...(you got to come out of the dialectic some more) I never said any of the CFR chosen presidents were against war...they all love it...they live for it in one form or another. The governmnet-MIC-intel is defined, exist and empowered because of it. They and buddies all make a lot of money from it and get to excercize 'abstract sense of power' doing it, which is a prime necessisty of narcissicist and other psychopaths. The fact is the pre-emptive strike mentality came to have a name in our era...i.e. the Bush Doctfrine....for that Bush Jr will be forever remembered...
.
 Thing to remember is that Military Keynesian structured econmies all come to fail,,,because the serfs can no longer be expensed to fund products nobody really wants or to continue blood sacrifice...and also on account peace breaks out...Only if perpetual war is normalized will such economies and psychopaths stagger on.  War economies use to be short term. Refer to the Von Mises video posted above.
.
 Incidently, do you remember how the Roman vs Sammites War and the Pelopensian Athenians vs Sparta War were ended.... ?
.
.
....TM7

No But I remember how the Romans ended the Punic Wars.  They totaled Carthage and razed the city to the last brick and salted the fields so they would no longer be a power.
I remember how the Isrealites ended the conquest of Palistine in Exodus.
Every so often I see a group of older people all dressed in Black gather in Pacifica and protest the war.  What they do not realize is that by protesting the war they are emboldening our enemies and they get more soldiers killed.
If you read military history read Gen Giap's memories, the Hippy peace movement had him cancel his surender and sueing for peace and encouraged him to attack and press on killing about 20,000 more US servicemen about 250,000 to 400,000 NVA and about half a million civilians targets by the Communists.
 

[mcwoodduck]

Oh and TM7,
I am sure there are quite a few Kwaities that had wished some one had attacked Sadam and preempted the attack on their country.
I am sure that the Chineese had wished that they had prempted the invasion by the Japanese in 31.
I am sure that 6 Million Jews and 20 million Poles, Russians, French, Dutch, Americans,English, and Ukranians had wished someone had made a premptive strike to end Hitler's attack on Poland in 1939.
Preemptive attackes may make some sense and Like Magooch said you need to kill and destroy things in the most horrific way possible so others do not get the same Idea.
What lead to the Soviet revolution was the devistation of the Russian army on the battle fields of WWI and the unwillingness of the troops to march to their deaths.

[ironglow]

  Quoted from McWooduck;
     " If you read military history read Gen Giap's memories, the Hippy peace movement had him cancel his surender and sueing for peace and encouraged him to attack and press on killing about 20,000 more US servicemen about 250,000 to 400,000 NVA and about half a million civilians targets by the Communists.
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
   McWooduck is 100%  correct..Gen Giap was ready to surrender long before the "peace talks" in Paris, but the hippies encouraged him to prolong the war.  The last group of traitors was the congress...who votyed to cut funds from our fighting people in the war zone. It is difficult to fighht a war with empty stomachs, empty fuel tanks and empty guns.
   The accursed hippies wielded power way beyond their worth !
 
  There is an aging crone in our village who has a sign on her lawn which says "WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER" ... well, DUH ! 
   I have never had the occasion to converse with old Jan about her sign, but I guess I would start with the obvious rhetorical question:....
     " Well then, what IS the answer...capitulation ? "

[Nuke41]

6 million dead jews (actually reduced to less than 4 million officially)
...TM7

And the reference for that is?