Black Powder Safety - another perspective

[Roger_Dailey]

Sorry for the new message, I must have been doing something wrong, I couldn't reply to the other message.
  Anyway, here's a little more information on black powder and static.  As always, YMMV

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/sparks/sparks.html

[RandyWakeman]

http://www.remington.com/safety/ml_safety.htm

See #9.

http://yarchive.net/explosives/black_powder.html

http://www.auroragunclub.com/blkpowder.htm

Even synthetic clothing, which generates static electricity, can create sparks capable of detonating the fragile shells. Firework makers must stick to wearing cotton -- all the way down to their underwear.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/fireworks/anat_nf.html

http://www.icehouse.net/msjmsj/anvil_writeup.html

http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/166068.html

http://www.ohiohistory.org/resource/oahsm/notebook/janfeb1991.html


Though hardly something to obsess over, static discharge has ignited enough black powder and killed enough people to satisfy most cynics. The finest dust is, as you would imagine, by far the easiest to ignite. Corn dust is also extremely static sensitive as well-- we have had enough deaths locally (and recently) in the grain storage business and corn starch processing plants to show that. Static spark induced explosions have leveled several blocks near Joliet, IL, and Argo, IL, in recent years.

[Roger_Dailey]

I wonder what was wrong with the experiments above?  The pictures are pretty amazing.

[RandyWakeman]

COULOMB'S LAW

Charles Coulomb first described electric field strengths in the 1780's. He found that for point charges, the electrical force varies directly with the product of the charges. In other words, the greater the charges, the stronger the field. And the field varies inversely with the square of the distance between the charges. This means that the greater the distance, the weaker the force becomes. This can be written as the formula:

F = k (q1 X q2) / d**2 (Where q is the charge, and d is the distance between the charges. K is the proportionality constant, and depends on the material separating the charges. )

There's nothing wrong with the pictures-- distance is not addressed, which makes a huge difference when that distance effectively zero, or direct contact. Static electricity need not be visible at all. Does that make your hair stand on end? :wink:

[Underclocked]

My wife could set it off just lookin' at it.

[Roger_Dailey]

COULOMB'S LAW
There's nothing wrong with the pictures-- distance is not addressed, which makes a huge difference when that distance effectively zero, or direct contact. Static electricity need not be visible at all. Does that make your hair stand on end? :wink:

  Hair on end?  No mine, not for years!  

  Back to the topic at hand.   My only interest is safety.  If static does ignite black powder, then proper precautions need to take place.  If static does not ignite black powder, then we need to look for the source of ignition when static has been blamed.  The bottom line is we need to get all these experts talking to each other.  

  Take care, have fun....
  Roger D.

[RandyWakeman]

Roger,

There is no news here. Warnings are on every can of Goex. Even Pyrodex's MSDS mentions static electricity.

Section VII.   PRECAUTIONS FOR SAFE HANDLING AND USE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steps to Be Taken in Case Material is Released of Spilled:   Do not smoke in the area. Powder should be scooped or swept up using non-sparking, conductive tools. This should be done in a manner so that no dusting occurs.
Waste Disposal Method:   Wet thoroughly with water to dissolve the powder. Comply with all federal, state, and local laws.

Precautions to Be Taken in Handling and Storing:     Pyrodex is a solid propellant which is designed to propell a mass. Thus appropriate care should be taken to avoid heavy confinement and ignition sources such as, but not limited to, heat, static discharge, embers, friction, and impact. Do not drop containers of powder. Store at temperatures of less than 150[F] in approved magazines.

Other Precautions: In the area of use, avoid all possible sources of ignition and use explosion proof electrical equipment suitable for use with explosive dusts.


While it may be trendy to ignore warnings on a can, they are there for a reason. BP is ignitable by impact, sparks of any type, etc. So is Pyrodex, just a bit less so. Smokeless powder has its own set of handling precautions as well, it is just harder to ignite than BP or Pyrodex.

If there is a general hierachy of propellants, BP is the most easily ignitable, then Pyrodex, then Triple 7, then smokeless-- all are safe when used properly; it just takes a little more attention to something that burns in a frizzen pan-- designed to be set off by a shower of sparks, that's all.

[Roger_Dailey]

Roger,
There is no news here. Warnings are on every can of Goex.

  Randy,
  Yes, there is no news here, I've read the labels for years.  I've even repeated them.  However, when faced with physical evidence like the above experiments, I'm starting to question what I've read.  If static will ignite black powder, then is must be doable in a lab.  

   That's my basic question(s).   Where is the proof that static will ignite black powder?  Who has the actual data?  What level of static is required?  

   Thank you for being patient with me.  I'm finally understanding that you're telling me you don't have the answers.

[RandyWakeman]

Where is the proof that static will ignite black powder?  Who has the actual data?  What level of static is required?    

MSDS sheets are available here for Elephant, Schuetzen, and Swiss:

http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/Sporting/sporting.html

Address  7650 US Hwy. 287, #100
Arlington, Texas 76001
Phone (866) 809-9704
(817) 478-8891

Spark levels for possible ignition would be contingent on humidity content of the powder, specific powder, and particle size-- with BP dust the most easily ignitable.

[Longcruise]

I don't hink comparing the ignition of grain dust with the ignition of bp is a valid comparison.  You can duplicate the ignition of grain dust with a small handfull of very fine sawdust.  pour it slowly out of your hand over a burning match and it will ignite in a huge fireball (and will probably burn the heck out of you too).  It takes heat to ignite these fine powders and static electricity just doesn't supply the heat source.

Another correspondent on another board viwed the same experiment and called the Goex plant where he was told that they don't really worry about static electricity but rather heat.  Impact will ignite powder when it generates enough heat.

Another correspondant on that same board put a properly grounded spark plug into a container of bp and connected it to his car and fired it up.  Nothing!

Further, why do we think that because we don't use plastic (except for those guys who use the tc see through plastic powder dispensers :-) ) we are somehow eliminating static.  Why would we not expect a random spark to jump from a powder measure to the barrel of a rifle as we load?  No conducter is free of the possibility of delivering a static charge and plastic is not necessary to generate a charge.

Pyrodex is marketed in plastic containers!  The last time I bought Swiss it was in a plastic container!

I too would like to see definitive proof that static electricity can set off bp or a bp sub.

So, that's my two cents worth.  Sorry to throw gas on the fire. :-)

[Walker]

Further, why do we think that because we don't use plastic (except for those guys who use the tc see through plastic powder dispensers  ) we are somehow eliminating static. Why would we not expect a random spark to jump from a powder measure to the barrel of a rifle as we load? No conducter is free of the possibility of delivering a static charge and plastic is not necessary to generate a charge.

That's easy. With a conductive container any static electricity will be dissipated, as fast as it forms, through your own hand into your body and to the ground.

[Longcruise]

That's easy. With a conductive container any static electricity will be dissipated, as fast as it forms, through your own hand into your body and to the ground.

Ok, then howcum when i was a kid I could slide across a wood floor in my socks and touch my sister on the arm making her jump three feet.  It did tend to "ignite" her

Seriously, lets say I'm wearing rubber soled shoes and maybe a wool shirt and handling my loading equipment stirring up a charge(static that is).  My rifle is leaning on my portable shooting stand (iron contraption with buckskin wrapped around the barrel contact point) but the barrel makes contact with the iron rod which is stuck into the ground about a foot.  I pick up my powder container (metal) and while BS'ing with the rest of the guys on the line the can is rubbing on my shirt or some such and builds a charge.  Then, holding my brass measure in the other hand, i pour a measure full and reach over to pour in the powder.  Powder is about half poured down the barrel when the measure comes within an 1/8 inch or so from the barrel and the spark jumps right next to the powder.  Why doesn't it go off? :?

[RandyWakeman]

http://www.skepticfiles.org/new/197doc.htm

http://homestudy.ihea.com/advanced/28powder.htm

I'm not sure what the question really is, as Wano, Swiss, etc., etc., all warn against static electricity, as does the respective MSDS sheets. The issue is well-documented in Hatcher's Notebook, and several other texts.

[Longcruise]

Randy, I followed all the links you originally posted and those in your last post.

The Rem site didn't show anything on the topic that I could see.  I know the guys at the Aurora club and with all due respect they are no more expert than you or I.  The continuous repeating of a commonly accepted belief or "conventional wisdom" may give the appearance of validity but where is the substantial proof?

Please don't take this personally, of course, but I'm just one of those guys who needs to see proof.

[RandyWakeman]

Well . . .

A visit to the garage with a hammer and some 3F in a plastic baggie will take care of impact sensitivity for you, as to static electricity-- let us know what lights your fire. Static discharge at service station pumps have created some quite remarkable effects; but my snowblower didn't want to start this morning. :cry:

[Longcruise]

Well, I've done the impact work already.  Used a .50 roundball at 100 yards through a can of goex ff.  It goes off :shock:

Gas and air of course are a different matter.  They specifically ignite readily with a spark....unless there are 10 or 12 inches of snow on the ground :x

The factor missing in static/bp ignition is heat.  Impact provides that but a static spark does not.

The correct approach of course on my part would be to experimement in such a was as to prove that static CAN set off bp.  Once successful, my opinion is disproved.  If unsuccessful, well, it's not proof but at least additional empirical data.

Anybody have any ideas on experimental set-ups?

[RandyWakeman]

http://www.alaska.net/~natnkell/staticgen.htm


"These generators are capable of producing sparks similar to the ones at the top of this page. Be aware that their performance is influenced by relative humidity, design, and by minor manual adjustments. Also be aware that electrostatic discharge is a major enemy of computers (not to mention ammunition plants and fireworks factories). If you make and use any of this stuff, keep it away from your computer, preferably in another room."

[Longcruise]

Randy, great link.  I'll report back with results either here or in the obits.