158 gr XTP from the Max for deer

[kevinsmith5]

Anyone have thoughts/experience on using this on deer?

[kynardsj]

Works just fine from a 357 magnum but the Max may push it to where it blows up before it penetrates enough.

[jedman]

  Stick with the flat point XTP for deer,  not the hollow point XTP.  The HP is OK for handgun velocity but to explosive for the Max in a rifle,
 
 

[petemi]

I'm experimenting now with the Hornady 180 gr. SSP. but my maxi is super accurate with the 158 gr. HP XTP and I probably won't change the load.  Best accuracy is with a hot load running at least 2000 fps.  I use the maxi for just about everything except deer and bear.  Hunting on my land, I need a rifle with 300 yard capability.  I have let too many deer walk because I felt the rifle in my hands wouldn't do it.

This target was shot with the 158 gr. XTP at 75 yards a couple of weeks ago just to double check the scope.  The first two shots are on the right.  I moved 3 clicks left, and you see the third shot.  It IS very accurate.  I think if you use the flat point, you'll have the best of both worlds.

Pete

[cwlongshot]

Good morning!
 
 Yes I have used the 158 bullets on deer. IMHO the 158/160 is near perfect with the little magnum for use on deer. BUT when you go to a longer, non vented, barrel like found in a Handi or Marlin rifle. The HP version is simply out classed. The 357 MAGNUM rifle barrel with a 158g bullet, will make 2000 + fps and Hornady lists the 158 HP, bullet as optimal preformance as optimal at 700-1400fps. A stiff loading in along barrels VENTED handgun can reach 1400+... Shoot that in a rifle and its a VARMINT bullet!!
Switch to the FP version is a excellent choice for the little magnum in a longer barrel. Hornady lists its optimal preformance as 1175-1800+. so those 2000fps loadings are at the top of its range. But I have found it preforms very well on a number of deer with the MAGNUM.

I also have shot a couple deer with the FP in my Maxi's. They will work but the increased HP of the maxi combined with the longer barrel on the Handi also outclass this bullet. The MAXIMUM can reach 2400+ from a long barrel. Thats just too much for the XTP HP bullet on game. It would be a good selection if you needed to streach the range a bit, but remember your still shooting a blunt bullet that sheds vel and energy quickly, so "long range" with these style bullets is kinda said tounge in cheek as 150-175 yards is LONG range.
Kynardsj is correct, the HP version is great in a MAGNUM handgun. Switch to the FP version if using the 158 grain in a MAGNUM Carbine or MAXIMUM pistol.  (I bolded to help avoid confusion between the magnum and the maximum.)

Here is some shots of the Hornady recomendations of there XTP bullets:






Peter is also correct, the Hornady SSP in 180 grs is seemingly taylor made for the maximum in a carbine!!  SSP stands for Single Shot Pistol bullet. But more importantly its designed for the velocity range of the Maximum when shot in a longer barrels rifle. Its also proven damn good shooter for most guys willing to spend some time at the loading bench finding a good loading! I have been dropping hammers on the Maximum since it was new. I have been shooting deer with it almost as long. It started out (for me) as a sillouette round, offering near 44Mag preformance (tipping over steel) but with less recoil. It did a much better job on the steel than the easy to shoot magnum, without the precise bullet placement needed to topel the Rams. BUT even the maximum needs better bullet placement then the big 44 on those rams. In short, its no equil of the big 44.


If your gonna shoot deer with the maximum, the 180 XTP is a better choice in the XTP line. (Hornady lists its max speed of 1750fps, but if you don't seek max velocities, it too works great in the maximum.) Speer makes a equilly excellent 170g Gold Dot or now as its called "deep curl" as well as the 180FP made for the 35 Remington. The 180 SSP in what most choose and its a excellent choice. A good load will give you at 1" and near 2300 fps form a rifle barrel.


Good luck,
 CW

[gendoc]

cw,  your second visual states in the second text line..... "impact velocities"
 which most here chrony @ muzzle or several feet from it. so you mite need to further explain
to these folks..........
 
btw... that is great information

[cwlongshot]

cw,  your second visual states in the second text line..... "impact velocities"
 which most here chrony @ muzzle or several feet from it. so you mite need to further explain
to these folks..........
 
btw... that is great information

Sure enough!!

I did touch on this when I mentioned using the FP bullet to taylor "long Range" loadings... This is because of just what Gendoc has pointed out. IMPACT VELOCITY. You see most bullet velocity ratings take place about 15' from the muzzle of the firearm. Much closer and the blast and unburned powder cause faulse readings and much more and you would be dishonest to call it "muzzle" velocity.

Anyhow bullets slow with distance, blunt and short bullets shed this fastest. So if your gonna load that 158 XTP FP at top velocity. In the maxi you will get damn close to 2500fps and if you impact a big game animal at that velocity a horrific, shallow, wound will result. because the bullet cannot "hold together that fast. BUT at say 150 yards, the bullets velocity will now be about 2000 fps and now this bullet will preform as one would expect with the best balance for penetration and expansion.

CW 

[rdlange]

Thought I saw that the XTP MAG was recommended for the 454 Casull vs the regular XTP; so if therer's a 150+/- gr 358 XTP MAG would that be a better choice?

[Gohon]

Works just fine from a 357 magnum but the Max may push it to where it blows up before it penetrates enough.

The re-loader tailors the load to his/her hunting conditions.  The Max can't push the bullet any faster than what one wants it to.  If most of your shots are below 150 yards the  XTP/FP would probable be a better choice but at around 150 yards the FP is going to be below the so called optimum range and may act just like a solid.  On the other had the XTP/HP will fall into it’s optimum range at about 100 yards and carry on out in that optimum range to several hundred yards if one wants to use fps as a measuring stick.   

Point is, know what your expected hunting conditions are and load accordingly.  No one set of numbers apply to all hunting conditions and besides, just because a particular bullet is a little over or under it’s rated optimum speed range does not mean the bullet will fail to perform.  The 158 Grain XTP/HP loaded in what ever, at 1900-2000 fps may or may not do a little more damage from 0-100 yards if bone is hit but it is not going to explode like a thin jacket varmint bullet. 

[kevinsmith5]

I will primarily be using my Trapper in heavy brush for shots under 50 yards. I'm looking at a load for the 158 gr XTP HP that generates an MV of 1700 fps. I will probably either get some 180 SSP's or some 200 gr gas checked lead from Western Bullet for deer loads after reading all the comments here and save the XTPs for foxes and coyotes at my brothers farm.

[cwlongshot]

Works just fine from a 357 magnum but the Max may push it to where it blows up before it penetrates enough.

The re-loader tailors the load to his/her hunting conditions.  The Max can't push the bullet any faster than what one wants it to.  If most of your shots are below 150 yards the  XTP/FP would probable be a better choice but at around 150 yards the FP is going to be below the so called optimum range and may act just like a solid.  On the other had the XTP/HP will fall into it’s optimum range at about 100 yards and carry on out in that optimum range to several hundred yards if one wants to use fps as a measuring stick.   

Point is, know what your expected hunting conditions are and load accordingly.  No one set of numbers apply to all hunting conditions and besides, just because a particular bullet is a little over or under it’s rated optimum speed range does not mean the bullet will fail to perform.  The 158 Grain XTP/HP loaded in what ever, at 1900-2000 fps may or may not do a little more damage from 0-100 yards if bone is hit but it is not going to explode like a thin jacket varmint bullet.

Just a couple comments. 

Of coarse a person can load a given caliber to a given velocity. Whats the point?? 
 It's a safe assumption a person who has a MAG and goes to MAX does so to utalize the higher velocity/energy offered with the Maximum. Loading a MAX to MAG vel when you have a perfectly good shooting MAG is kinda ... well moot... As the OP wanted to know about the 158 in the MAX, I will keep with the MAXIMUM.

Personally, I look at all these pistol rounds used in rifles as 150 yard max calibers... BUT the 158FP can be pretty easily loaded to reach 2500fps in the Maximum. Just for giggles lets say we load it to 2400fps. Now ballistic tables don't list these bullets at these velocities. But I guarenty this bullet will not loose 500 fps in traveling 150 yards.. Even if it lost 600fps its would still be going 1800 fps.... this bullet is rated as impact velocity range of 1175 - 1800+... that means its still traveling right at top recomended optimal impact velocities at 150 yards... It is NOT likely to act like a solid...not by a long shot...  IMHO Within the context of handgun bullets, a HP has no place as a big game hunting bullet. There is always exclusions and the heaviest XTP (for a given caliber above 35), as well as the afore mentioned MAG versions of the XTP, are excluded form the previous comment.


Now we or mostly I, have gone back and forth with MAGNUM and MAXIMUM velocities and I have tried to do so with out confusing folks. I brought it up to compaire what these bullets DO, DO well. Again, seeing as the OP was asking about the 158 XTP in a MAX.

My reason for commenting here is because I do KNOW what these two bullets will do at certain velocities as I have shot them into many head of game animals.

A general statement "just because a particular bullet is a little over or under it’s rated optimum speed range does not mean the bullet will fail to perform" Is true enough. But in this case I am saying just what these bullets will and have done. I can difinitavely tell you, that YES a .357 158HP at 2000fps shot into bone WILL result in a nearly total disintigration of that bullet. (Will it kill the animal, almost certainly. BUT will you recover it... maybe yes maybe no.) I have shot more than a couple wood chucks, say 35-40# with a hot loaded .357, 158G HP bullet. The chuck in nearly torn in two pieces. I doubt many would argue the wood chunk offers much LESS resistance than a 100/150# deer.
 
A quick comment with a MAGNUM. I have also shot a couple deer with a 8" 357 mag revolver with 158 HP bullets with very good results and never a bullet recovered. (MV about 12-1300fps) These have had entrance holes smaller than exits, showing me they provide good expansion and more than adaquite penetration.

CW

[kevinsmith5]

I took some of my 1700 FPS loads out today and fired them at a 1" pine board at 40 yards with a dirty bird target 3" behind the board. Bullet came out like a shotgun blast.

[Gohon]

Of coarse a person can load a given caliber to a given velocity. Whats the point??

The point is the quote I quoted implied that just because it was a maximum it would be loaded to maximum power.  That doesn't have to be nor is it always the case.  I reamed my magnum to maximum for the simple reason I wanted to shoot heavier bullets for more energy.  Looking for faster bullets was not my goal.  180-200+ grain is what I load in the maximum case.  If i want to shoot lighter bullets I stay with the magnum.

Keep in mind that in your first post you were referring to 2000 fps for the 158 grain XTP when you said "so those 2000fps loadings are at the top of its range" which is what I based the speed loss on and which is correct.  If the number is going to change to 2500 fps them I'll adjust accordingly.  I don't even need the maximum for those speeds and the 158 grain XTP.  Loaded in the magnum ahead of 18 grains of Lil'Gun I get 1940 fps with the 158 grain XTP which drops to 1450 fps at 150 yards. 

I pretty much follow the same rule as you concerning maximum range.  For myself it is 100-125 yards for the magnum and 150 yards for the maximum with a possible 200 yards on a broad side shot if things are lined up right.  But, even with all that it still depends on what the load itself is.

[Vic49]

I took some of my 1700 FPS loads out today and fired them at a 1" pine board at 40 yards with a dirty bird target 3" behind the board. Bullet came out like a shotgun blast.

Was it the bullet or the pine board that came out like a shotgun blast?

[kevinsmith5]

Based on the Distribution of jacket pieces all over the board the dirty bird was on, the bullet.

[bajabill]

how old is that data.  I have a few of the more recent hornady catalogs and none show the range for the 35cal 180xtp.
 
I shoot this bullet at 2100fps and this tells me I may be a little too hot with that bullet choice for potential 40 yard shots.

[quickdtoo]

how old is that data.  I have a few of the more recent hornady catalogs and none show the range for the 35cal 180xtp.
 
I shoot this bullet at 2100fps and this tells me I may be a little too hot with that bullet choice for potential 40 yard shots.

The Hornady 8th lists it for medium game with a muzzle velocity range of 900-1700fps.

They list the 158gr XTP HP for medium game with a MV range of 700-1400fps

And the 158gr XTP FP for medium game with a MV range of 1150-1800fps.

Tim

[Gohon]

They list the 158gr XTP HP for medium game with a MV range of 700-1400fps
And the 158gr XTP FP for medium game with a MV range of 1150-1800fps.

I've always thought those figures were impact velocity and not muzzle velocity.  700 fps at the muzzle sure wouldn't be something I'd want to shoot at game unless I could stick the muzzle in their ear. 

[quickdtoo]

They list the 158gr XTP HP for medium game with a MV range of 700-1400fps
And the 158gr XTP FP for medium game with a MV range of 1150-1800fps.

I've always thought those figures were impact velocity and not muzzle velocity.  700 fps at the muzzle sure wouldn't be something I'd want to shoot at game unless I could stick the muzzle in their ear.

They clearly state muzzle velocity range.

Tim

[Gohon]

Very interesting and odd at the same time.  Sure hope no one figures they can load at 700 fps and go deer hunting with it.  That speed just barely produces 170 fpe.

[quickdtoo]

It's based on their data which covers that MV in the 38 Spcl, they also list data that goes well beyond the MV range, for instance, 35 Rem rifle data for the 158gr XTP HP and FP, >2200fps. 

Tim

[cwlongshot]

They list the 158gr XTP HP for medium game with a MV range of 700-1400fps
And the 158gr XTP FP for medium game with a MV range of 1150-1800fps.

I've always thought those figures were impact velocity and not muzzle velocity.  700 fps at the muzzle sure wouldn't be something I'd want to shoot at game unless I could stick the muzzle in their ear.

They clearly state muzzle velocity range.

Tim

Tim,
 This brings up a interesting point as BOTH our pictures are showing the same velocities. Ye Yours obviously shows MUZZLE VELOCITY while mine clearly says IMPACT VELOCITY... If yours is from Hornady as is mine it would appear HORNADY is a fault for at least PART of our confusions here...

CW

[quickdtoo]

It's from the current Hornady manual.

Tim

how old is that data.  I have a few of the more recent hornady catalogs and none show the range for the 35cal 180xtp.
 
I shoot this bullet at 2100fps and this tells me I may be a little too hot with that bullet choice for potential 40 yard shots.

The Hornady 8th lists it for medium game with a muzzle velocity range of 900-1700fps.

They list the 158gr XTP HP for medium game with a MV range of 700-1400fps

And the 158gr XTP FP for medium game with a MV range of 1150-1800fps.

Tim

[cwlongshot]

It's from the current Hornady manual.

Tim

how old is that data.  I have a few of the more recent hornady catalogs and none show the range for the 35cal 180xtp.
 
I shoot this bullet at 2100fps and this tells me I may be a little too hot with that bullet choice for potential 40 yard shots.

The Hornady 8th lists it for medium game with a muzzle velocity range of 900-1700fps.

They list the 158gr XTP HP for medium game with a MV range of 700-1400fps

And the 158gr XTP FP for medium game with a MV range of 1150-1800fps.

Tim

That being said, the confusions are defineately Hornadys...

We all know there could be a HUGE difference is a bullets leaving the muzzle at say 1500 fps or striking a distant target at 1500fps... Could be the difference of bullet preformance (As expected) and the lack there of... 

In what I have experienced thru the years, IMPACT velocity appears closer to the truth... The pictures I have posted are also form Hornady and where included with XTP bullets. I would say that they are 8-10 maybe more years old. I have seen new printings but they only have a few of the bullets shown. Mine is a two sided piece with all availble XTP bullets avalible at that time.

It could be a simply mistake but its not completely apparently the issue is Hornady's... not any of ours.

CW

EDIT:
 I also just noticed a phone number for "more information"... wonder if its still a good number?

[gendoc]

to quote cw.......
"We all know there could be a HUGE difference is a bullets leaving the muzzle at say 1500 fps or striking a distant target at 1500fps... Could be the difference of bullet preformance (As expected) and the lack there of...  "
-----------------------------------
thats where i was come'n from back in reply #5..........

[cwlongshot]

Agree 100% John!  Also as you pointed out the data I posted clearly states "Impact velocity". Yet Timmy's data from same company also clearly states "Muzzle velocity". Bothe are for same bullets made by same company AND the vel numbers are the same. One of them is wrong...

CW

[Gohon]

I think I'm gonna stick with impact velocity which makes more sense to me, especially if one is talking about performance of a particular bullet design.

[kevinsmith5]

I think impact velocity is what would matter. But for my purposes, given the ranges I'll be dealing with, the two are gonna be pretty nearly the same. Given the terrain (swamp) and cover (heavy) I'm looking for a load likely to cause a bang-flop or very brief run.