Author Topic: .30-40 Krag vs. .300 Savage. Who woulda thought? (Read 6815 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** May 28, 2012, 04:31:03 AM »

Hey Guys,

I have never paid much attention to the .30-40 Krag round. Having grown up hearing about the weak U.S. Krag actions, and how modern ammo for military rounds is significantly downloaded by manufacturers, I had the impression that the .30-40 Krag was about the same as the weak loaded 8mm rounds, just a tad more powerful than the .30-30. I would certainly have thought that the .300 Savage was way ahead in power, since it is regarded as just being a step below the .308 Winchester.

I was surprised to find that I am wrong. In looking at the factory ammo, 180 grain bullets, sold by Winchester and Remington, I see that the .30-40 Krag has more muzzle energy than the 300 Savage in the same bullet weight. Not by much, but still, more.

I also people on the boards complaining about the very high cost of .30-40 Krag ammo. True it costs about $29 a box, but on the other hand, .300 Savage rounds are about $27 a box and I don't hear people yelling much about that.

Krag is hard to find? No its not, Cabellas carries it, and you can just pick up the phone and order several boxes. (I don't "look for" my ammuntion in mom & pop stores or the big box stores. Why waste the gas?)

I was thinking about trying to get a Savage straight-gripped carbine with a peep sight in .300 Savage for hunting. But, these are running around $700, and for that I could get a good old DCM-type Krag Carbine in .30-40. I have seen on line that Lyman use to make a peep sight for it, that you can attach without drilling a single hole. You can still buy them. And, from what I have seen, the average Krag Carbine with a really good barrel shoots more accurately than the average Savage lever with a really good barrel.

Anybody out there shoot Krag carbines, with peeps? Is there any source for factory Krag ammo loaded with a 150 grain bullet?

Regards, Manny

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #1 on:** May 28, 2012, 04:38:36 AM »

Never had a .30-40...One caliber I would have liked to have fooled with...at present I don't think any of the major man. make the .30-40 in 150's..but it would be simple to load....I have looked at many 30-40's over the last years,but find it hard to pay the going price, when I saw them as a young man in perfect condition for 15$ and Springfields for $25....but if it what one desires it is worth it..when I was first starting to hunt the old .30-40 was fairly popular..our neighbor had a 30" rifle model...have often wondered what happened to John's rifle..he only had daughters and none cared a hoot for rifles... $:-\$

muznut 54 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2012, 06:17:48 AM »

My father had an 30-40 Krag model 1895 Winchester that I hunted with when I was a kid it was handed down to him by his uncle that was a professional hunter for a lumber camp in Maine about a hundred years or more ago when such things were legal hear and he downed many a moose and deer for camp meat with that old Winchester. And I remember seeing pipe wrench marks at the base of the barrel, I guess old uncle did what he had to in camp or on the farm when he wore out a barrel.

RevGeo · « **Reply #3 on:** May 31, 2012, 03:48:19 AM »

I love the 30-40 round. I have a single shot 98 Mauser chambered for 30-40 Ackley Improved which is ballistically similar to a 30-06, but to be honest, anymore I load it down to Krag velocities most of the time for my old shoulder's sake. I've shot deer and elk with it and am hoping to be drawn for a moose permit this year. If I do I know what rifle I'm taking.
I like the 30-40 loaded with 180gr bullets and H380 powder. I don't think any of the manufacturers are offering 150gr loads, which is a shame as it's a great deer and black bear load.
I don't think I'd purposely go after brown bear or cape buffalo with a Krag, but for all the big game hunting I've done here in Idaho I've never felt under-gunned with the 30-40.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 31, 2012, 04:45:02 AM »

My pop said old uncle John said the 180gr was the way to go for deer anyway but I'm not sure what he used on moose maybe the same thing? And my pop is gone too so I cant ask him.

Bingo · « **Reply #5 on:** May 31, 2012, 12:50:12 PM »

I too have always thought the 30-40 Kraig was in the same group as the 30-30 and have never bothered with it. But to say that the 300 Savage is a step below a 308 isn't true or fair ether.

The only real difference between the 300 and the 308 is that the 300 has a steeper sholder there in making it a 308 A.I.
My son inherited a Savage 99 from his grandfather. Three years ago my brother used it to shot a 9 point in the head at 281 yrd. This past year my son took a deer from the same stand at 280 yrds and it only traveled 20 feet before piling up.
Sorry, I don't want to sound pushy, the 308/300 argument I like and encourage but don't try to tell me the 30-40 Kraig is in the same class.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 31, 2012, 02:02:35 PM »

With the best powder for each cartridge the 300 savage is 50fps faster than the Krag with 180gr jacketed bullets and the win308 is a 160fps faster than the 300 savage with the 180gr jacketed.

Swampman · « **Reply #7 on:** May 31, 2012, 02:25:58 PM »

I love the .30-40 cartridge and the Krag carbine. I'd like to have a Ruger #3 in .30-40.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2012, 03:15:46 AM »

That would be a nice combo Swampman, How many Ruger 1's and 3's do you have?

Swampman · « **Reply #9 on:** June 01, 2012, 03:23:32 AM »

I just have one of each. Both are .45-70s. The #3 is blued of course and the #1 is stainless. If I ever run across a #3 locally in .30-40, I'm gonna have it if I have to sleep on the back porch for a month.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 01, 2012, 03:35:09 AM »

LOL your like me if I have to eat caned food for a year to get the gun I want Ill do it. My Pops old 95 30-40 Krag had no bluing left on it and it was so old the wood was black and it seemed petrified it was like rock my pop always promised that gun to me but my oldest brother borrowed it and never brought it back before my father died.

Swampman · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2012, 03:46:06 AM »

Winchester has some .30-40s in the new 1885s and 1895s I believe. CDNN had some. Ruger has also produced #1s in .30-40. The .30-30 Handi Rifle is a very easy conversion to .30-40.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2012, 03:59:01 AM »

Thanks for the info but I already picked up a 95 30-06 case color take down a few years ago and I had a .270 95 I bought about 12yrs ago sold it to my nephew that lived about 200 miles from me and the little bastered got busted for growing pot and I never fully got paid for it and if I knew he was pulling that chit he would never have got it.

RevGeo · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2012, 04:08:35 AM »

Quote from: muznut 54 on May 31, 2012, 02:02:35 PM

With the best powder for each cartridge the 300 savage is 50fps faster than the Krag with 180gr jacketed bullets and the win308 is a 160fps faster than the 300 savage with the 180gr jacketed.

Not much difference out to a couple of hundred yards in the real world, now is it?
I've often wondered about the reports of routinely killing deer and elk with a .308 at 600-700 yards where the velocity is lower than a 30-30's at 200 yards, yet the 30-30 is considered 'marginal at best' as a 200 yard cartridge, no matter what the rifle or bullet.
There is really no difference in killing power between a .300 Sav and a 30-40 Krag. They are both fine old cartridges and were originally chambered in beautiful, classic rifles.

mannyrock · « **Reply #14 on:** June 01, 2012, 06:51:05 AM »

No doubt that the .300 Savage is an excellent cartridge. I was just surprised to find that the .30-40 is in the same class. (My ignorance.)

When I first started going to gunshows in the late 1970s, you could still get full length Krag for about $125, and carbine size Krag for about $200, in really nice shape. Guess I shoulda grabbed up a carbine.

Manny

Siskiyou · « **Reply #15 on:** June 01, 2012, 08:23:14 AM »

The original action for the 30-40 Krag is considered weak compared to most of the actions the 300 Savage as been loaded in. I loaded the 300 Savage round in a Remington 722 action that is considered strong with a maximum load of IMR4064. I am getting 2670 fps with a 165-grain bullet out of a 24-inch barrel. It is a very good deer load, and I would use it on black bear. I can loaded the 150-grain bullet to 2800 feet per second in the 300 Savage
Back when I was a kid, Dad had a hunting partner who hunted with a sportized 30-40 Krag. I was impressed with the pentration and exit of the 180-grain Silvertip length wise on a buck they brought in. When I saw the damage I wanted one.
I believe that the 30-40 Krag was one of the earlist smokelist powder rounds issued to the U.S. Military. According to Speer is was designed for a 220 grain round nose bullet, and some of the rifles have problem feeding spitzer bullets. Another issue is over generous groove diameters and they recommend slugging the bore. They note that their .311 bullet for the .303 British might resolved the problem.
Brother had a Remington Rolling Block in 30-40 Krag. Downloading is required for that rifle.
Nothing wrong with a Krag, the users expectations coupled with the particular rifle are key to success or failure.

Same brother has a 300 Winchester Magnum, but enjoys shooting his 300 Savage more.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 01, 2012, 09:06:40 AM »

Your right the original Krag Jorgensen actions were weak with just one locking lug compared to a modern gun but the old 95Win held its own it was the first sporting rifle chambered for the 30-06 back in the day.We use to use the Win 180gr silver tips too my pop always said the tips were real silver but I think he was pulling my leg.

RevGeo · « **Reply #17 on:** June 02, 2012, 08:21:02 AM »

I don't know if I would agree with calling the Krag action 'weak'. Compared to the Mausers and Springfields it is definitely not as robust, but I think it is plenty strong for the original 30-40 round.
Having said that, some Krags have been known to show cracks in the locking lug and should be checked out. The 30-40 case itself is relatively strong and is well suited to single-shot actions due to the string rim. I've always been a fan of rimmed cartridges (and single-shot rifles) but they sometimes aren't too good in a bolt action repeater because of feeding problems.
Any round that punches a 180gr .30 cal bullet at 2400 fps - like the Krag - is plenty good medicine for big game out to 250 yards or so in my book.

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** June 02, 2012, 09:52:02 AM »

My problem is I that dislike Savage leveractions and if I wanted a .300 Savage in a boltaction I'd just buy a .308.

The .30-40 is chambered in several cool rifles.

nomosendero · « **Reply #19 on:** June 02, 2012, 03:20:18 PM »

Just goes to show you that you can have fun with any of these with today's powder & bullets & none is wrong if you like it & it suits your needs, but I will continue to sratch that itch with a 308, keeps things simple!

muznut 54 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 03, 2012, 01:29:23 AM »

The .308win is a nice round I have it in a CVA Apex and a Rem7400.

Barstooler · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2012, 04:43:28 PM »

I have reloaded and shot a 30-40 Krag carbine with a Lyman peep since 1965. It originally belonged to my dad.

Plenty safe if you abide by recommended loads. It is great with 220 gr cast bullet and also handles 180, 200, & 220 jacketed bullet. I have also loaded it with 165gr and took a large mule deer buck with it.

Big issue with the Krag action is that it really prefers round nosed bullets. Every time I ever tried to use spitzers in it resulted in the pointed bullet semi-jamming as it fed up and over into the chamber. If it did not jam it sure damaged the bullet tip. Round nose bullets do not have that problem and if the truth be known, out to 300 yards it don't make no difference.

A friend of mine (now deceased) owned 2 300 Savages in Model 99. The Krag was more accurate than either of them.

Barstooler

Bingo · « **Reply #22 on:** June 09, 2012, 01:55:01 AM »

OK this is where I am going to get my ears pinned back

I have been told and you guys have also stated that the action is not the strongest. that is one strike. But! Although the action is very smooth.
The 30-40 Kraig Jorgenson is uglier than my ex-wife

muznut 54 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 09, 2012, 04:58:41 AM »

LOL

RevGeo · « **Reply #24 on:** June 09, 2012, 05:30:16 AM »

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you saw my ex-wife maybe you'd understand why I find the Krag a fine looking rifle.
Once again, the Krag action is not weak. It is plenty strong for the round it was designed for.
Is the Win. Mod 94 a weak action because it only handles cartridges in the 30-30 and .35 Rem class along with various pistol cartridges? No. It is perfectly strong enough for the intended use, as is the Krag. The Krag rifle with the 30-40 cartridge has a long, distinguished history as a fine big game gun.

I'm still not sure of the intended use of ex-wives, however.

muznut 54 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 10, 2012, 01:33:10 AM »

I think the rifle looks fine I just got a kick about what he said about his ex.

Bingo · « **Reply #26 on:** June 10, 2012, 01:47:33 AM »

There's an old Blue Grass tune called Always Marry an Ugly Girl. The choris says,

" Always marry an ugly girl, That's the only kind.
You know she'll never leave you, If she does then you woln't mind."

Sorry folks but the magazine box on the side just doesn't make it.

Swampman · « **Reply #27 on:** June 10, 2012, 02:19:33 AM »

The Mosin is 1000 times more unattractive than the Krag but they are still popular.

mannyrock · « **Reply #28 on:** June 10, 2012, 03:26:36 AM »

Personally, I love the way the Krag looks. Its so, . . . end of the 19th Century, just before the dawn of the Guilded Age. Utilitarian in design, but gracefully executed. Just like the steam locomotives and ships of the time.

Just 10 years or so later, the world of technology would take a quantum leap forward, with the large scale production of automobiles, submarines, Dreadnaught Battleships, rapid fire artillery pieces, and the discovery of radiation and X-rays.

The Krag also looks so, transitional. A very reasonable attempt at creating a modern, repeating bolt-action military rifle in a high powered cartridge, but falling short of the genius of Paul Mauser. Like something your great great grandfather would come up with in his workshop. You can almost imagine the old U.S. Cavalrymen handing over their Trapdoor Springfields for their new Krags. They must have thought them miraculous!

Mannyrock

Bingo · « **Reply #29 on:** June 10, 2012, 04:06:43 AM »

OK now you've opened a whole new can of worms

The transition!!!!
The Kraig was just marginally better than the 30-30 balisiclly. The late 1800 to early 1900 lever action rifles loaded faster, laid down more fire power and just after the turn of the century the Savage lever was devoloped with a far better round. The 300 Savage. Which was devoloped before the 308'
Why did the military go to the slower bolts action over the lever until the devolopment of the semi?
Besides the levers just look nicer than the UGLY KRAIG