Model 7 Nightmare

[3 feathers]

Hoping someone here has an answer.   I have a stainless Model 7 in 7-08. Bought it new several year ago. Out of the box it shot about 2" group. It has a 20" barrel and is pretty skinney. I let the barrel cool 5 minutes between shots. It had the plastic stock that Rem. puts on them and I replaced it with a HS Precision stock. All screws are torqued to specs. and I have tried scopes that are provened good from other guns. Have tried factory loads and every load and bullet weight that I could find. Any advice? New barrel?

[Graybeard]

I have an original 18.5" Model Seven 7-08 that shot about like that. Still it's never missed on game or needed a second shot. I started feeding it Hornady Light Mag ammo it turned into a sub MOA shooter with nothing else done. It's the only M7 I've owned that needed that much attention.

[hillbill]

my model 7 is not much of a group shooter either. but after some fiddleing around i got it where it always seems to put the first shot dead center.its been one of my favorite hunting rifle for 20 yrs.

[charles p]

I have the same rifle except in 308.  Mine is among my most accurate rifles with a cold barrel.

[Swampman]

I had one just like yours.  I sold it because 1.5 MOA was the best it would do.  They just aren't accurate like the Model 700.

[Spanky]

You're not likely to miss much game with a rifle that'll shoot into a 2" group. For a hunting rifle with a light contour barrel that isn't bad (in my opinion).
That being said you can probably get it to shoot better with some more careful load development. Alot of times it's just a matter of finding the load that the rifle likes best.
Keep at it... you'll get there.
 
 
 
Spanky

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got two both 308s one a blued gun that i ended up giving to a grandson. It shoots moa with the right load. the second is a stainless syn one that is a 1.5 inch gun. Plenty accurate as if i know im going to have shots out past 300 yards i bring a flatter shooting gun anyway.

[Swampman]

The 1.5 MOA rifle I owned was also stainless.  It might have shot better in time and with the right reloads I just won't live long enough to fool with a 1.5 MOA rifle.  The Model 700s have spoiled me.

[mannyrock]

3 Feathers,
 
    You bought a lightweight carbine, with a short light barrel.  What kind of accuracy did you expect?  The vast number of carbines, even the really good ones, will only do 1.5 to 2 inches out of the box.   You can probably shrink your groups down to 1.5 inch by experimenting with  several different brands of factory ammo.
 
   I am always surprised that so many folks think every rifle is supppose to shoot 1 inch MOA or it is somehow defective.  Our parents and grandparents certainly didn't think this way.    How did it happen.
 
   Finn Aagard's favorte go-to hunting rifle was an FN Commercial Mauser, in .30-06, with a stepped down military barrel, and a synthetic stock.  It only  shot 2 inch groups at a 100 yards. And yet, he killed almost everything with it, including medium and big game all over the world .  He was interested in hunting, not bench squatting and paper punching.
 
  Manny
 
   
 

[Graybeard]

Brithunter and swampman. If you two can't end your childish attacks I'm gonna ban both of you from the site. It ends now. Both of you need to put the other on ignore and leave them there if that's what it takes for your childish behavior to end. If you can't do it I sure can.

[SHOOTALL]

you torqued the stock screws to spec. often spec is an average of what most guns shoot well at  you might vary the torque . some even find different torque from front to rear screws help . Short thin bbls don't always mean poor accuracy as the XP-100 has a thin bbl and the four I had were among the tightest shooting guns I have owned.

[3 feathers]

mannyrock,
You are right. Sometimes I do expect too much from my equipment. But I love to try to get things as good as possible. I love the little rifle so the quest goes on.

[pastorp]

Truth is none of you guys can shoot 1/2" groups from field positions. Maybe from a bench rest but 1/2" guns are not that common. 

In 1971 I bought the first new browning BLR I saw in a gunshop. It was in 308 win. It was a 1&1/2" shooter but I hunted all over the us with it & killed all manner of game with it. I shot deer & elk out to 300 yard and never missed killing them. Of course in those days my eyes & reflexes were superb.

It's nice to have a accurate rifle but bench shooting & field shooting are 2 different things. What matters is not your group size near as nuch as can you put that first bullet where it needs to go. 

Regards,

[Brithunter]

So I'll ask again as the post is gone:-






Did you talk to Remington about this?




If so what did they say?

[SHOOTALL]

none of you guys can shoot 1/2" groups from field positions.

 
Why not ? not to be funny but some field positions are quite good . Of course the shooter has to pratice from field positions to be good at it. The too you only said 1/2 inch groups but gave no yardage , I assume you are talking 100 yards. or less. I have shot ground hogs at over 400 yards while siting on the ground in a bean field  using a bipod on the rifle to clear the beans. I watched a program called sniper on the history ch. Those guys can and do every day. It would suprise me if they ever shoot from a bench.

[pastorp]

Shootall,

You shoot groups on those groundhogs do ya? 

Regards,

[hillbill]

well i hope the OP has good luck with his gun!the model 7 is about one of the finest hunting rifles ive ever had.in my opinion.light, quick handleing, fits me, easy to shoulder and sight, carrys easy and is short enuf to handle in any blind.that being said its not a bean field rifle and never was advertised as such.ill give up one half inch moa for all these qaulities.but hey thats just me.and im not a huge rem guy either, i just like good guns, regardless of the brand.

[Don Fischer]

I bought a very early mod 7 in 223 Rem. The most inaccurate rifle I ever owned. So bad I'd never own another. I did write Remington and they told me the groups I was getting were withing specs for them. A 223 that averages 3" at one hundred yds is useless. I had completely gone thru the bedding and it didn't help.

[Brithunter]

I have just been searching the Remington web site and despite this quote:-


[/color]

Like all our Model 700 rifles, this edition is graced with the world-leading out-of-the-box accuracy and reliability that have earned it a place in history as the greatest bolt guns of all time.

 so often paraphrased by a certain GBO member I cannot find any details or claims as to what exactly a new owner can expect as to way of precision on target from a new Remington bolt action rifle.




[/size]

Lightning fast and superbly accurate, the compact, short-action Model Seven has been a leader in the woods since it was introduced in 1983.

That is from the model 7 page.Now is it only me   or do others here find it strange that no quantative figure for it's precision capability upon target is mentioned?


Parker-Hale whom I am very familiar with gave a guarantee that their rifles would shoot into 1 1/2" at 100 yards using fresh Norma ammunition. This guarantee was printed in their catalogues. I believe Sako and Tikka both tell what precision in grouping their rifles should attain as a minimum acceptance.


I know BSA also gave grouping minimum specs on some models possibly more but BSA literature is more difficult to find it seems so checking this is a bit more difficult  So does anyone know where one can find the minimum precision of grouping acceptance specifications that Remington use in production of their bolt action rifles?

[pastorp]

Well I guess I'll share my model 7 experience. I purchased a new stainless synthic model in 260 rem. when they first came out. Before anything else I free floated the barrel, and adjusted the trigger to my liking. I worked up a load using Remington cases and 140 gr kor locks. After breaking in the barrel it would shoot into 5/8" shooting over the hood of my pick- up. Nice rifle but too barrel light to suit my taste so I sold it. But it would shoot. Not the magic 1/2" though, but close.

Regards,

[Swampman]

Model 700s will normally shoot much less than MOA out of the box if you can shoot.  Most people just can't shoot.

[Brithunter]

Well as no one seems to know the answer I have e-mailed Remington and asked the question directly as to what is the acceptance standards for grouping of the Model 7 and Model 700 bolt actions.


As it's now the weekend I don't expect there will be a response or answer until next week and that is if there will be one. Remington have always proved helpful in the past when I have asked for information although that was just on ammunition last time.


As an aside I also browsed the Sako and Tikka sites and notice that I could not find this information on their rifles now either    seems to be the "modern" way now. What a shame.

[RevJim]

 Light rifles, especially carbines, are harder for me to shoot well off the bench. I have no problem hunting with any rifle that will shoot 2" consistently "if it is heavy enough for me to hold still". . My nightmare showed up around 30yrs ago on my first "light bolt rifle", one of the first Ruger 77 Ultralights in .308. I put a leupold 1x4 on it and with Remington factory loads, it would shoot 2" and under from the bench, sometimes around an inch. I shot a doe with it at 25yds in the woods, and it fit that role very well. To check out its "logging road" capablity, I set out a 2 liter coke bottle filled with water at a known 200yds. ZI them leaned against the side of my jeep ( like I would do on a tree or on the log road, and I proceeded to shoot 10rds in total frustration,ha. I could not hit that thing. Now, with my Ruger 77 in .280, I could hit alarm clock size rocks that far!
  I never cared for the skinny bbls on Mod 7's, so always rebarreld them with longer, stiffer bbls. I used takeoff bbls from Mod 700's, Adams & Bennett bbls, and only one Shilen #2. I still have the Shilen bbld Mod 7 in the family.
 Here out Far West ( that's what the old trappers called Utah,ha) I can shoot far and of course I like tiny groups, but I take whatever I have and shoot out to 400-500 yds , first from a portable bench, then from a field position. Then I know what to expect. I like to keep my first shot at game under 300; under 200 is better. I like to know where I can hit as far out as possible if I have to finish off a wounded animal. For me, I have found my happy medium with  sporter weight rifles for everything. I have had few Mod 700s that did not shoot better after tweaking them. When I played with muzzleloaders, a 1.5" group felt like I had a benchrest gun,ha. I shot a spike buck, offhand, around 150yds with a sabot .44 XTP over 110gr pyrodex like no ones business. Peep sight. I also killed a pickup load of deer/hogs as a kid with a Mod 94 in 30-30 that wouldn't hold 6 inches at 100, ha. of course, my longest shot was around 90 steps, all the rest were 50 and under! I think  any rifleman wants all he can get from his rifle/load, but as I get older I realize I could have hunted Africa alot more for what I spent on the pursuit of 'the accurate rifle", ha.

[SHOOTALL]

Shootall,

You shoot groups on those groundhogs do ya? 

Regards,

I shoot groups on paper long before I shoot at GH's to make sure the gun can shoot. I don't know how big GH heads are around you neck of the woods but here 3-4 inches is a big one. 

[Swampman]

Shot some sub-MOA groups this morning with my .45-70 and bullets I cast myself off a set of crossed sticks I cobbled together using junk that was laying in the yard.

[alleyyooper]

I have a Remington 700 Mountian rifle in 7mm08. first thing you do at deer camp after unpacking is shoot a couple of round thru that rifle. the first bullet is always a flyer that you know will hit some plase down range of the barrel on a clean barrel.
After the barrel has been dirtyed it is a very good grouping rifle.
On the other had my Model 7 in 7mm08 have shot execlent groups from day one.
 
    Al

[Swampman]

That's why you needn't clean a bore.

[Brithunter]

Well I sort of got a reply from Remington although it must have been written but some political dummy there as it uses lots of words but says nothing just like politicians do:-

We do not publish an accuracy guarantee on our production firearms. In general, we find that the model 700's reputation speaks for itself and will perform well above the required standards of even the most discriminating shooters, including US military and Law enforcement sharp shooters.[/size] [/color][/size]Should you purchase a new model 700 that does not shoot to YOUR specifications, we would encourage you to contact our repair department at 1-800-243-9700 to discuss your concerns with one of our technicians.[/color]

So one is expected to part with their hard earned and hope that all will be OK. If not wait up half the night to Phone Remington and hope that the person on the other end of the line agrees with your notion that your new rifle does not perform on target as one would expect then HOPE   they agree to sort it out. Meanwhile due to the daft laws on licensing here if a replacement is required the variation of the licence to pick up replacement could take weeks or even months.


As Remington also make ammunition surely if using their ammunition they could say what is acceptable grouping and what is not or is it really a fact that such information would be so shocking that it would hurt their sales  .


I have replied letting Remington know I am less than impressed with their smoke and mirrors answer. answer!




Ahhh swampman in humid or damp areas you don't clean bores you get rotten and pitted bores. Stainless only stains less than carbon steel it's not rustproof  . In fact often Moly Chrome steel does better in this respect. The only rifle that showed rusting on my Missouri hunt back in 2003 was the Weatherby Weather Warrior owned by the youngest brother. The other three blued steel riles didn't have this problem. Luckily I had packed a rod and cleaning stuff in the hard case.


Unless I am using the rifle later in the day or the next couple of days then it gets cleaned on retuning home or to where ever I am staying. I usually check to see if the rife throws the first shot or shots out of the group. Perhaps I am lucky as most I have do not.

[Swampman]

American made ammo is non-corrosive.  Remington and everyone else knows how accurate their guns are.  The weak link is the shooter.

[SHOOTALL]

That's why you needn't clean a bore.

I disagree , a bore can get fouled to a point it effects accy. I have had bbls fouled with copper to that point . Also I have gotten good deals on used rifles that the owner said didn't shoot but after a good cleaning shot well. In any case a couple or three fouling shots after cleanning is all that's needed in most cases to season the barrel and have it back up to its best accy .