Author Topic: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional  (Read 1492 times)

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Offline crustylicious

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DOMA Ruled Unconstitutional By Federal Appeals Court
 
BOSTON — A battle over a federal law that defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman appears headed for the Supreme Court after an appeals court ruled Thursday that denying benefits to married gay couples is unconstitutional.
In a unanimous decision, the three-judge panel of the 1st U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Boston said the 1996 law deprives gay couples of the rights and privileges granted to heterosexual couples.
The court didn't rule on the law's more politically combustible provision – that states without same-sex marriage cannot be forced to recognize gay unions performed in states where it's legal. It also wasn't asked to address whether gay couples have a constitutional right to marry.
The law was passed at a time when it appeared Hawaii would legalize gay marriage. Since then, many states have instituted their own bans on gay marriage, while eight states have approved the practice, led by Massachusetts in 2004.
The court, the first federal appeals panel to rule against the benefits section of the law, agreed with a lower court judge who in 2010 concluded that the law interferes with the right of a state to define marriage and denies married gay couples federal benefits given to heterosexual married couples, including the ability to file joint tax returns. The ruling came in two lawsuits, one filed by the Boston-based legal group Gay & Lesbian Advocates & Defenders (GLAD) and the other by state Attorney General Martha Coakley.
"For me, it's more just about having equality and not having a system of first- and second-class marriages," said plaintiff Jonathan Knight, a financial associate at Harvard Medical School who married Marlin Nabors in 2006.
"I think we can do better, as a country, than that," said Knight, a plaintiff in the GLAD lawsuit.
Knight said the Defense of Marriage Act costs the couple an extra $1,000 a year because they cannot file a joint federal tax return.
Opponents of gay marriage blasted the decision. "This ruling that a state can mandate to the federal government the definition of marriage for the sake of receiving federal benefits, we find really bizarre, rather arrogant, if I may say so," said Kris Mineau, president of the Massachusetts Family Institute.Since Congress passed the law, eight states have approved gay marriage, including Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Iowa, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maryland, Washington state and the District of Columbia. Maryland and Washington's laws are not yet in effect and may be subject to referendums.
Last year, President Barack Obama announced that the Department of Justice would no longer defend the constitutionality of the law. After that, House Speaker John Boehner convened the Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group to defend it. The legal group argued the case before the appeals court.
White House spokesman Jay Carney said the appeals court ruling is "in concert with the president's views." Obama, who once opposed gay marriage, declared his unequivocal personal support on May 9.
Carney wouldn't say whether the government would actively seek to have the law overturned if the case goes before the Supreme Court.
"I can't predict what the next steps will be in handling cases of this nature," Carney said.
The 1st Circuit said its ruling would not be enforced until the Supreme Court decides the case, meaning that same-sex married couples will not be eligible to receive the economic benefits denied by the law until the high court rules.
That's because the ruling only applies to states within the circuit – Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Maine and New Hampshire – and Puerto Rico. Only the Supreme Court has the final say in deciding whether a law passed by Congress is unconstitutional.
Until Congress passed the law, "the power to define marriage had always been left to individual states, the appeals court said in its ruling.
"One virtue of federalism is that it permits this diversity of governance based on local choice, but this applies as well to the states that have chosen to legalize same-sex marriage," Judge Michael Boudin wrote for the court. "Under current Supreme Court authority, Congress' denial of federal benefits to same-sex couples lawfully married in Massachusetts has not been adequately supported by any permissible federal interest."
Several times in its ruling, the appeals court noted that the case will probably end up before the high court, at one point saying, "only the Supreme Court can finally decide this unique case."
Carl Tobias, a constitutional law professor at the University of Richmond, said the court kept its ruling narrow, declaring unconstitutional only the section of the law on federal benefits. Although supporters and opponents of gay marriage may depict the ruling as the beginning of the end of the law, he said, the Supreme Court is likely to limit its ruling to the benefits issue as well.
"I think lawyers could argue that the arguments are equally applicable to the other sections of the law, but you have to stretch. You have to take those out of the context in which it's being applied, and I don't think the court will do that," Tobias said.
During arguments before the court last month, a lawyer for gay married couples said the law amounted to "across-the-board disrespect." The couples argued that the power to define and regulate marriage had been left to the states for more than 200 years before Congress passed the law.
Paul Clement, a Washington, D.C., attorney who defended the law on behalf of the Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group, argued that Congress had a rational basis for passing the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996, when opponents worried that states would be forced to recognize gay marriages performed elsewhere.
The group said Congress wanted to preserve a traditional and uniform definition of marriage and has the power to define terms used to federal statutes to distribute federal benefits.
"But we have always been clear we expect this matter ultimately to be decided by the Supreme Court, and that has not changed," he said in a statement.
Two of the three judges who decided the case Thursday were Republican appointees, while the other was a Democratic appointee. Boudin was appointed by President George H.W. Bush. Judge Juan Torruella was appointed by President Ronald Reagan. Chief Judge Sandra Lynch is an appointee of President Bill Clinton.
In California, two federal judges have found this year that the law violates the due-process rights of legally married same-sex couples.
In the most recent case, a judge found the law unconstitutional because it denies long-term health insurance benefits to legal spouses of state employees and retirees. The judge also said a section of the federal tax code that makes the domestic partners of state workers ineligible for long-term care insurance violates the civil rights of people in gay and lesbian relationships.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/doma-unconstitutional-ruling-appeals-court-boston_n_1559031.html
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Offline Hooker

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2012, 01:51:05 PM »
You really scrape the bottom when you post something from the huffington compost.

Pat
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Offline crustylicious

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline magooch

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 03:48:14 AM »
There is one really big problem that I see with queer marriage and that is who is the judge going to favor and give all the spoils to when they get divorced?
Swingem

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 03:51:15 AM »
There is one really big problem that I see with queer marriage and that is who is the judge going to favor and give all the spoils to when they get divorced?
I've thought about this, and concluded... that if you really want to put a stop on 'gay marriage', then require that one of the two must declare as 'the husband' - that way the state will know who to screw over if they divorce.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 03:52:47 AM »
Another problem with legalizing gay marriage.  Polygomists are waiting in the wings to get their marriages legalized.  It becomes a mess.  Just 50 years ago gays were concidered to have mental problems like schizophrenics and bi-polar's.  They do, they may have been born that way, but it is NOT the NORM, both evolutionary and from a religious view.

Offline lakota

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2012, 04:04:54 AM »
I'd be a lot less hostile towards their lifestyles if the were not so "in your face about it". I dont really care what they do in their private lives. I just dont want to constantly see or hear about it.
 
Also it is my understanding that a majority of gay people are atheist. Why are they so adamant about "gay marriage" with marriage being a religious institution? Why cant they just be happy with calling it a civil union or domestic partnership where the government recognizes the partnership for the purposes of "marriage" but doesn't drag any religion into it?
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Online ironglow

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2012, 04:25:47 AM »
I'd be a lot less hostile towards their lifestyles if the were not so "in your face about it". I dont really care what they do in their private lives. I just dont want to constantly see or hear about it.
 
Also it is my understanding that a majority of gay people are atheist. Why are they so adamant about "gay marriage" with marriage being a religious institution? Why cant they just be happy with calling it a civil union or domestic partnership where the government recognizes the partnership for the purposes of "marriage" but doesn't drag any religion into it?
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
  Lakota;
   Bingo..you have most of the problem nailed..right there !  Marriage was designed and ordained by God.  The homosexual knows he/she/it/whatever is not only "in your face" but also trying to be "in God's face", since he has already told them that to Him, it is an abomination..    " You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman: it is abomination."  (Lev 18:22)
   Therefore, if they want to completely ridicule what He tells them..why in the world would they want to partake of a sacred thing He established ?  They could call it a "legal contract" or whatever they wish..other than marriage..
  Speaking for myself and millions of Biblical Christians, I doubt they really want to sincerely  partake of it.  It appears they mostly want to ridicule God's institution.
   What they are also looking for is the "legitimization" of their perverse practices.  It is as if the "politically correct" crowd suddenly came to the conclusion that those who hold up and rob convenience stores..were actually playing Robin Hood, and they decided they no longer were robbing stores,..but rather, "securing a nestegg"..
   Thus..homosexual axctivity will no longer be called demented, sinful activity..but rather, .."marriage".
 
  They can do what they want, and others who are confused enough, can provide them cover if they wish... But God is NOT deaf, dumb and blind !
 
   As R G Lee titled one of his famous sermons..."PAYDAY SOMEDAY"..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline BBF

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2012, 04:38:18 AM »
"marriage" was in operation well before a Desert god declared it.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Online ironglow

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2012, 04:51:47 AM »
"marriage" was in operation well before a Desert god declared it.
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
   ...And to you too..."PAYDAY SOMEDAY"..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline crustylicious

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 05:30:13 AM »
Cafeteria Christions- reading only parts of the Bible!
 
2 Samuel 1:26
I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline lakota

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 06:37:17 AM »
Cafeteria Christions- reading only parts of the Bible!
 
2 Samuel 1:26
I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

No doubt referring to platonic BROTHERLY love and not romantic love. Probably the biblical equivalent of the modern day man saying "I love you man!" It is possible for a man to have love for another man without it being homosexual.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline lakota

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 06:43:14 AM »
And as I said before: I am rather indifferent towards their chosen lifestyle and I would be even more indifferent(if it is possible to be more indifferent ;) ) of they would just leave me alone and quit bombarding me with propaganda. I dont want to hear about it. I find displays of men smooching on other men and women smooching on other women to be distasteful and that is my right to feel that way. Let whatever supreme being there may be judge them.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2012, 07:15:29 AM »
I'd be a lot less hostile towards their lifestyles if the were not so "in your face about it". I dont really care what they do in their private lives. I just dont want to constantly see or hear about it.
Understandable. I think most gay folks would like to be left alone to live their lives, and not be persecuted/discriminated against.
 
Quote
Also it is my understanding that a majority of gay people are atheist.
Could be, though I know with absolute certainty that some are Christians (and others, other religions). Some are probably driven to atheism by the very unChristians behavior of Christians hostile towards them. Just a guess, but a good one.

Quote
Why are they so adamant about "gay marriage" with marriage being a religious institution? Why cant they just be happy with calling it a civil union or domestic partnership where the government recognizes the partnership for the purposes of "marriage" but doesn't drag any religion into it?
Because that would deprive them of marriage. I think most would live just fine with domestic partnership, completely equal to marriage, legal-wise. Remember - marriage is NOT a specifically Christian institution. It is not. Those who say that it is, are either uninformed or just obstinately, willfully ignorant.

Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2012, 08:05:07 AM »
David was not gay.  If he was God would not have chose him to be the linage of Jesus, because God condemed gay activity all through the OT.  David had several wives and concubines and several children.  He loved Bathsheba and committed adultry with her.  God forgave him but allowed him to have child rebellion and problems in his family the rest of his life.
 
God Created Adam and Eve thus it says a man should leave his father and mother and cleve to his wife, first marriage.  Marriage is understood in all religions to be between a man and woman.  Even in polygomy, it is one man several women or one woman several men, not with the same sex. 

Offline lakota

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 08:19:55 AM »



Quote
Why are they so adamant about "gay marriage" with marriage being a religious institution? Why cant they just be happy with calling it a civil union or domestic partnership where the government recognizes the partnership for the purposes of "marriage" but doesn't drag any religion into it?
Because that would deprive them of marriage. I think most would live just fine with domestic partnership, completely equal to marriage, legal-wise. Remember - marriage is NOT a specifically Christian institution. It is not. Those who say that it is, are either uninformed or just obstinately, willfully ignorant.

 

Well first of all I am of the libertarian mindset that the government shouldnt be in the "marriage business". I dont believe that anyone should have to ask big brother for permission to marry but we all know the gooberment will never pull its nose out of anything.
What I advocate is a compromise. Gay couples get a domestic partnership or a civil union or whatever they want to call it as long as it is not called "marriage" while they get all of the "benefits" of marriage. The other side can stop harping about the "sanctity" of marriage because what the gays get isnt called "marriage" in the eyes of the law. I put sanctity in quotes because I am not sure how we can yammer about the "sanctity of marriage" when the divorce rate in this country is almost 50% depending on who you ask. How that "sanctifies" marriage is beyond me.
 
But back to the subject-both sides would have to compromise and give up something.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 08:27:00 AM »
I agree Lakota.  Even two straight bachelors or two straight women, might want to have a civil union with a close friend so they could benefit each other.  Marriage is a religious institution. 

Offline Hooker

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2012, 02:06:41 PM »
I don't give rats butt if to consenting adults of the same sex want to get hitched. Just don't give me any crap when I tell you that it's wrong and that is as sick as American politics . And don't ever come near my kids or grandkids with that this acceptable behavior BS.

Pat
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Online ironglow

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2012, 02:17:10 PM »
Cafeteria Christions- reading only parts of the Bible!
 
2 Samuel 1:26
I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
   (Flaming deleted) Jesus used many terms you are likely to misunderstand; for instance Jesus said " greater love hath no man, than he give his life for his brother". (Flaming Deleted)
  Clearly, there was not a bit of 'gay' in David, as witnessed by Abigail, Bathsheba & a couple hunderd other wives and concubines.
  (AGAIN)
   
  There should be no question where homosexualism is covered in the Bible.. Romans chapter #1 is very unambiguous...
 
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''     
  Romans 1:22-28 King James Version (KJV)  22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  (DELETED)
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

   What and why are you deleting portions of my posts?   I didn't do any name-calling or cuss words..not my style..
  It must have been fairly innocous, since I cannot recall what those (flaming deleted) words were, but I doubt they are true "flaming" words..I do not normally resort to name calling .  Perhaps one was where I explained that not all words translated as "love" means "erotic love".  Our English language lacks some of the nuances of ancient Aramaic and/or Hebrew.  Yes, some peoiple in recent years do struggle with the idea of platonic or even more finely finessed Greek... of "Agape" love.
      Unless I miss my mark, your final deletion was where I asked Crusty to read and review the cited verses (Romans 1:22-28), because by his statements , he obviously had not read them..so why the deletion ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online ironglow

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2012, 10:30:39 PM »
  They are working hard to poison children's minds...even in comic books...the SICKOS !!!!
 
  http://www.slate.com/blogs/trending/2012/06/01/the_green_lantern_comes_out_as_gay_.html?wpisrc=obnetwork
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Val

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2012, 02:24:29 AM »
Next the lunatic fringe leftists will want to legalize pedophile marriage if the child is at least 2 years old and consents.
Hunting and fishing are not matters of life or death. They are much more important than that.

Offline magooch

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 02:30:27 AM »
Queers have managed to defile the dictionary by corrupting the meaning of "gay" and if they are ultimately successful in spoiling the meaning of "marriage", maybe it's time for straight folks to start calling a spade a spade and a queer a queer.
Swingem

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2012, 03:07:16 AM »
The other side can stop harping about the "sanctity" of marriage because what the gays get isnt called "marriage" in the eyes of the law. I put sanctity in quotes because I am not sure how we can yammer about the "sanctity of marriage" when the divorce rate in this country is almost 50% depending on who you ask. How that "sanctifies" marriage is beyond me.
an admission: I used to yammer about the sanctity of marriage, before I went through the maw of divorce court and witnessed the utter impotence of the church when it comes to marriage, and hypocrisy/cowardice of church leadership. That, and I know some gay people... very decent folks, nothing like the caricatures you'll see bandied hereabouts.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2012, 03:15:01 AM »
Next the lunatic fringe leftists will want to legalize pedophile marriage if the child is at least 2 years old and consents.
That is possible, and somewhat less likely that seeing the right wingnut fundamentalists introduce bills to outlaw homosexual acts and require Virginity Tests for couples before marriage... Christian Sharia!

... maybe it's time for straight folks to start calling a spade a spade and a queer a queer.
(shrug) could be... or could be that it's time to treat people decently, and to
practice the Golden Rule as enunciated by Jesus Christ.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2012, 06:26:08 AM »
..................
................................... Marriage is a religious institution.

I disagree. It is foremost a legal concept.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2012, 07:20:44 AM »
Oh, now it is merely a "concept" ::)
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Offline Doublebass73

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2012, 07:33:53 AM »
Quote
Well first of all I am of the libertarian mindset that the government shouldnt be in the "marriage business". I dont believe that anyone should have to ask big brother for permission to marry but we all know the gooberment will never pull its nose out of anything.
What I advocate is a compromise. Gay couples get a domestic partnership or a civil union or whatever they want to call it as long as it is not called "marriage" while they get all of the "benefits" of marriage. The other side can stop harping about the "sanctity" of marriage because what the gays get isnt called "marriage" in the eyes of the law. I put sanctity in quotes because I am not sure how we can yammer about the "sanctity of marriage" when the divorce rate in this country is almost 50% depending on who you ask. How that "sanctifies" marriage is beyond me.
 
But back to the subject-both sides would have to compromise and give up something.

Some excellent points lakota. I am also of the mindset the government has no business regulating marriage but I'm also realistic in knowing that the government would never give up that control.

The best compromise solution in my opinion would be to take the word "marriage" completely out of the equation. A government union, be it man and woman or same sex would both be considered "civil unions" rather than marriage. Men and women would still be married in their church and in the eyes of God but in the eyes of the government they would have a civil union. This would completely take away the argument that both sides use against each other.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2012, 08:07:06 AM »
  They are working hard to poison children's minds...even in comic books...the SICKOS !!!!
If you want to poison some young minds, give 'em a Chick Tract - it'll take 'em years to recover the ability to think:


Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Online ironglow

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2012, 09:05:07 AM »
  Chick is often "out there" but as often is the case, there is also a fair element of truth in that particular publication.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline powderman

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Re: Reagan, Bush and Clinton appointees declare DOMA unconstitutional
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2012, 10:48:21 AM »
"marriage" was in operation well before a Desert god declared it.
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