Author Topic: Can anyone help me identify this rifling? (Read 2196 times)

Zulu · « **on:** June 03, 2012, 08:00:10 AM »

This is a gun that I am going to build a naval carriage for. Does anyone recognize the rifling? I am trying to figure out what it is sleeved with.
Also, Why would it have two vent holes? I don't know the bore size yet but the barrel is 70" long. It's a long skinny tube. Breech is 8" and muzzle is 6". I have not seen the barrel yet.
I will ask my customer if no one knows but I wanted to at least appear smarter than I am.

Zulu

flagman1776 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2012, 08:39:52 AM »

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #2 on:** June 03, 2012, 08:50:46 AM »

Likely a WWII or newer tube. Whats the diameter. The forward hole looks like the vent. The back could be a mount for a rear sight.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #3 on:** June 03, 2012, 10:06:09 AM »

I am guessing as to the reason for two vents. It could be that one was drilled in the wrong place and so a second one was put in. If that is the case the one of these should be plugged. It may be that the one to the rear of the breach has something to do with a sighting system. Otherwise I don't know.

I might mention that my 8 inch siege mortar has two vents. One goes all the way into the bore and the other to within an inch of the bore. This was done so that if the first one burned out it could be plugged and the second one opened up. The reason was that this could be done in the field instead of sending it back to the arsenal.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 03, 2012, 11:30:06 AM »

So what about the cannon on the other side of the display case with the uniform?
This at a H.School or college?

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #5 on:** June 03, 2012, 11:55:00 AM »

What is the bore diameter?

Attached is a pic of a muzzle piece cut off of a WWII 3" Naval gun. Came off the same ship from which I got my three BOFORS 40mm tubes. A very few folks have turned these to represent CW pieces but this alloy is, according to an O.F. heat treater who worked for Watervliet that 4357 that was stressed hardened. To turn would be very difficult and to plug (threaded) impossible without first stress relieving, annealing or maybe even normalizing. Normalizing is to take the metal above the lower critical temperature (about 1450-1500 F) and turn off the oven to let it cool over a few days. Normalizing is required to soften alloys that are prone/conducive to air hardening. Again very few have been attempted to turn into some kind of replica. I had three sections of this... two 6.5' long muzzle sections and a 5+ foot long breech section (grandiose plans were to do the breech section into an 1841 Jamesed rifle).

Your proportions of the bore to OD look like a piece of WWII (or so) ordnance that was never sleeved up but just OD profiled, plugged and trunnioned.

GOW/George

Zulu · « **Reply #6 on:** June 03, 2012, 12:39:30 PM »

This is at a museum in Austin.
I said I don't know the bore diameter yet.

Zulu

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #7 on:** June 03, 2012, 05:15:20 PM »

From the pics the workmanship looks excellent. Probably a pretty fair shooter with all those nice lands and grooves.

Also that alloy has a yield strength of somewhere between 180 KSI to 220 KSI depending on the final treated condition so it would be pretty hard to blow with BP... even with the what appears to be fairly thin walls.

GOW

shred · « **Reply #8 on:** June 04, 2012, 07:45:54 AM »

Quote from: Zulu on June 03, 2012, 12:39:30 PM

This is at a museum in Austin.
I said I don't know the bore diameter yet.
Zulu

I am in Austin if you need some hands-on examination. Which museum? I can't remember ever having seeing it.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2012, 08:20:24 AM »

Zulu,

I for one, can't wait to find out what kind of material the outer tube is fashioned from.

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** June 04, 2012, 08:45:23 AM »

I would like to know the history of this cannon.

To my eye it appears to be a piece of straight tube with decorative bands and muzzle flare over a modern rifled bore. The outer barrel sleeve was then powder coated bronze.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #11 on:** June 04, 2012, 09:35:50 AM »

Quote from: Double D on June 04, 2012, 08:45:23 AM

To my eye it appears to be a piece of straight tube with decorative bands and muzzle flare over a modern rifled bore.

I think there's a good chance of that, or perhaps it's fiberglass built up on the surface of the milsurp barrel, because I recently saw a barrel made to look like a historic cannon that way (the trunnions were made of steel and welded to the steel tube).

Zulu · « **Reply #12 on:** June 04, 2012, 10:07:48 AM »

I will see what I can find out. I know it's long and skinny.

Zulu

Zulu · « **Reply #13 on:** June 04, 2012, 11:09:09 AM »

I have sent an email asking a bunch of questions. We will see if he answers.
Here is what he told me already.
The gun was made to replicate a brass gun captured from the Mexicans at The Battle of San Jacinto. The captured gun was then mounted on a naval carriage and used by the Texas navy.
He said that his gun was used to fire salutes back in the 1970's.
I asked him what it weighs and he guessed between 100 and 175 lbs. so it could very well be a fiberglass coated liner.
That's all I know but here are some more pictures.
Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** June 05, 2012, 02:54:48 AM »

It does have some taper.

Cannon Cocker · « **Reply #15 on:** June 05, 2012, 08:40:44 AM »

I would think the liner itself would weigh close to that. I'm liking the suggested fiberglass idea. Also, the close ups don't look quite right for a metal shape. Definitely not turned.

gunsonwheels · « **Reply #16 on:** June 05, 2012, 11:14:54 AM »

Cannot agree with Cannon Cocker's "Definitely not turned". ...

After turrning my first cannon and grinding the trunnion welds smooth, I went to work with a shaft mounted buffing wheel and several sticks of buffing compound until the whole thing looked very much like the pics of Zulu's. Everything looks like it was "flowed" instead of turned. Since then I found a cute little Makita tool that is a 1" x 21" portable belt sander... they have some very fine grit belts for it so I just might be tempted to do it again. For now, I use the tool mostly to smooth surfaces I plan on running the steady rest fingers against. Problem with buffing is it is too easy to radius the fillets or any other "needs to be sharp/square" shoulder such as to either side of an astragal.

GOW/George

Zulu · « **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2012, 10:37:02 AM »

Well, my customer was no help at all. He said the history is unknown, they think the barrel is cast, it's coated with metallic gold paint, and he doesn't know why it has two vent holes. $:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$ $:-\$

At some point I will have this barrel in my possession. At that time I will see if I can figure some things out.
Zulu

Double D · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2012, 11:59:28 AM »

I'll still say it is powdercoated....

onegreatshot · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2012, 02:56:35 PM »

All I can say is " pretty, pretty, pretty".

cannonmn · « **Reply #20 on:** June 07, 2012, 08:28:17 AM »

I'll give you the benefit of my experience, for whatever that's worth, in selling military cannon tubes for re-do into black powder cannons. The dimensions of this piece plus the fact that it has approximately 32 lands and grooves lead me to believe it was made from a 105MM howitzer barrel. Another thing I can suggest is that the person who thought it might weigh 150 lbs. was likely way under by a multiple of at least a few, unless an unusually large amount of metal was turned off of the military barrel during the conversion..

Zulu · « **Reply #21 on:** June 07, 2012, 10:08:57 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on June 07, 2012, 08:28:17 AM

I'll give you the benefit of my experience, for whatever that's worth, in selling military cannon tubes for re-do into black powder cannons. The dimensions of this piece plus the fact that it has approximately 32 lands and grooves lead me to believe it was made from a 105MM howitzer barrel. Another thing I can suggest is that the person who thought it might weigh 150 lbs. was likely way under by a multiple of at least a few, unless an unusually large amount of metal was turned off of the military barrel during the conversion..

He is going to bring me the barrel hopefully next week. He said he has never seen it off the existing carriage.
I, too, think he is going to be surprised at the weight.
Zulu

Zulu · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2012, 08:48:26 AM »

The barrel was delivered to me today.
It has 28 groves and lands.
3" between lands.
I believe the sleeve is 5 1/8" diameter.
A magnet sticks to every part of the barrel.
It looks to be powder coated to me.
It has a poorly stamped number underneath between trunnions. TF7868Y
Probably exceeds 300 lbs.
The hole to the rear of the vent is shallow as is the one in the first reinforcing ring at the muzzle. Probably for sights.
The folks that own it know absolutely nothing about it. $:-\$

Could this be some kind of tank barrel?
Zulu

cannonmn · « **Reply #23 on:** June 14, 2012, 09:09:27 AM »

You may have a piece of a Navy 3-inch, 50 caliber barrel. 50 caliber means the rifling is 50 calibers long, or 150 inches. I'm sitting near a complete one, 12.5 feet long, 9" O.D. at breech and about 5" O.D. at muzzle. 28 grooves looks right, but muzzle is against a wall and I can't move it now to count lands and grooves accurately. These barrels weigh about 1250 lbs.

Zulu · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2012, 09:17:45 AM »

From just behind the first reinforcing ring (at 5 3/8") to just in front of the forth reinforcing ring (at 5 7/8") is all the taper there is in that length. It gets bigger further back.
The bore is 63" deep. The vent hole (large I think at 5/16") enters the bore at 90 degrees 62 1/2" centerline.
Zulu

Cannoneer · « **Reply #25 on:** June 14, 2012, 12:37:56 PM »

Quote from: Zulu on June 14, 2012, 08:48:26 AM

The barrel was delivered to me today.
It has 28 groves and lands.
3" between lands.
I believe the sleeve is 5 1/8" diameter.
A magnet sticks to every part of the barrel.
It looks to be powder coated to me.
It has a poorly stamped number underneath between trunnions. TF7868Y
Probably exceeds 300 lbs.
The hole to the rear of the vent is shallow as is the one in the first reinforcing ring at the muzzle. Probably for sights.
The folks that own it know absolutely nothing about it. $:-\$

Could this be some kind of tank barrel?
Zulu

Zulu,
Are you saying that the milsurp barrel is placed inside an outer sleeve, or are you saying the milsurp barrel itself forms the outer surface, with the muzzle swell, reinforce rings, breech ring and cascabel (all made of steel) attached to the rifled tube?

Zulu · « **Reply #26 on:** June 14, 2012, 12:49:10 PM »

I think something has been cast on top of a liner,
It is very hard to tell.
Zulu

Zulu · « **Reply #27 on:** August 12, 2012, 12:44:30 PM »

I have been working on this carriage for a while now.
It is ready to deliver this week. I will take some more pictures of the barrel mounted on the finished carriage when I deliver it.
Here are some progress pics.
Double D will be proud! My customer wanted it painted this color. I had to cover up beautiful oak with paint. $:-\$

$:-\$

Zulu

KABAR2 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 12, 2012, 01:11:57 PM »

Zulu,
It looks great! how about one last photo with the tube on the finished carriage?

robbob · « **Reply #29 on:** August 12, 2012, 02:58:02 PM »

Nice work Michael..........as usual.