Author Topic: crossbow use in il passes both houses (Read 3239 times)

foxkidd44 · « **on:** June 03, 2012, 05:24:29 PM »

it looks like illinois may have crossbows legal for hunting deer thru the regular bow season.

i have mixed feelings about it.....

i kind of feel that the use of crossbows will increase the numbers of unethical shots.

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #1 on:** June 04, 2012, 10:27:22 AM »

I'm more concerned with the number of people that will be out there. Bow hunting for me was nice because not as many people did it.

They just want more money from tag sales, the ones that need to use a crossbow already can.

cjclemens · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2012, 04:13:17 PM »

I got mixed feelings on this one. If it was strictly a management based decision, I'd be all for it (assuming the DNR knows what they're doing). Unfortunately, it seems more like its an attempt to sell more archery tags. Obviously, I don't know that for a fact - but one can assume, in our situation, that any decisions our elected officials make will be based on dollars and cents.

luckydawg13 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2012, 01:57:46 PM »

i was looking forword to it in my Golden years not now

Casull · « **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2012, 02:45:37 PM »

What's the problem. A crossbow is an archery "device", just like a compound "bow" is an archery "device". And, if it brings more hunters to the table, so much the better. There is strength in numbers. As for "unethical shots", I can't count the number of times that I've heard guys talking about taking 50 yard or longer shots with their compound devices. The crossbow is a much more ancient tool or weapon than the compound bow. In fact, today's compound bow has a greater range than the crossbow. Anyway, I say it's about time. If you're worried about some "unfair" advantage, why not outlaw treestands. I'll guarantee that it is tougher to shoot a deer from the ground with a crossbow than it is from 25 feet up a tree with a compound bow.

cjclemens · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2012, 08:30:18 AM »

I see the problem in the people, not the device. Opening bow season to crossbows means more people with less skills out in the woods on bow season. True, crossbows are simple, easy to use, and probably more effective than compound bows when used properly. However, I expect crossbows will attract people who only care to practice archery the day before season opens - much the same as firearm season. It has nothing to do with unfair advantages. It has everything to do with lazy morons. Like GRIMJIM said, the people who need to use crossbows during archery season were already allowed to. Opening their use up to the general public does nothing for the sport or deer management.

Casull · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2012, 09:51:09 AM »

Oh please, I've heard that talk before. Part of the reason the compound bow took off years ago was because it was much easier to shoot than a traditional bow without sights. A good instinctive archer who shoots a long bow is going to need more "target time" than a guy shooting an 85% letoff compound bow with a release that probably has a better trigger pull than many rifles and a two point aiming device. Should we ban the compound shooter? What it really boils down to is guys not wanting to share the woods with others, or thinking that someone is going to shoot "their" deer. BTW, I've seen more than a few morons that were hunting with compounds.

cjclemens · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2012, 10:59:33 AM »

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What it really boils down to is guys not wanting to share the woods with others

That's a good point, and I'm glad you brought it up - because its absolutely true.

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I've seen more than a few morons that were hunting with compounds.

Also very true.

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What it really boils down to is guys not wanting to share the woods with others, or thinking that someone is going to shoot "their" deer.

And that's actually not the case at all. I hunt on private land - I rarely see another hunter besides members of my own family. Furthermore, I do not lay claim to any specific deer. I haven't shot a buck in the last 5 years, and I have no interest in taking trophies. I could talk about that for hours, but that's not the point here.

Im not against sharing the woods with everyone. I'm against sharing the woods with hunters who have no interest in conservation or resource management. Granted, that happens now, but with more labor saving devices (like crossbows) I see more lazy hunters in the woods who could care less about conservation, practicing good marksmanship, etc. I'm not going to argue the effectiveness or accuracy of different archery devices, because that has nothing to do with how I feel about them. Honestly, I think there's already way too many people out in the woods during deer season. The easier you make it for people to go out and shoot deer, the more lazy, uninitiated idiots you'll attract to the sport. I think it's wrong for the state to use this as a method of increasing deer tag sales revenues. Furthermore, if this really is a management decision, there are other ways to do it that will keep more honest hunters out in the woods where they belong (i.e. extending seasons, implementing earn-a-buck programs, etc). I dont think Illinois needs to have crossbows used by the general public - plain and simple. I doubt many people will agree with me, but its just how I feel.

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #8 on:** June 10, 2012, 12:35:52 PM »

If herd management wass at the heart of this decision I would have no choice but to agree. But it's not. It's the screwed up state of Illinois trying to get more money out of sportsmen, plain and simple.
I hunt public land almost exclusively. And yes it may be a little self serving to want to be by myself during archery season. Mostly because I have seen what the woods become during firearm season.
Seclusion is one of the things I love about archery hunting and if it gets to be anything like firearm season, with people walking up on you all day long, finding your stand and setting up in it, sitting down 30 yards away after seeing you and the plethora of other ettiquette violations I have had to deal with over the years, I don't know what will happen to the pastime I truly enjoy.

Casull · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2012, 06:39:11 AM »

Yep, the arguments you two are making are the same arguments that traditional archers were making back in the 70's against allowing the compound device in the woods. It was much easier to learn to shoot with, it would allow guys in the woods that weren't willing to take the time to learn to shoot traditional bows, it would cause every slob hunter to pick up a compound and arrows and the woods would be too crowded. Basically snobism. Oh well, history repeats itself.

cjclemens · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2012, 03:37:10 PM »

Traditional archers had every right to make that argument back in the 70's and its more true today than ever. The simple fact is - there ain't enough room in the woods for everyone. Hasn't been for some time. Whatever thins out the crowd is fine in my book. You're still missing the point - its not the crowd that bothers me. Its the half-ass slob hunters that do. You can call it snobism if it makes you feel better, but I call it common sense.

Casull · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2012, 03:57:56 PM »

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Its the half-ass slob hunters that do. You can call it snobism if it makes you feel better, but I call it common sense.

It is snobism. You are making the assumption that compound users are not slob hunters and crossbow users are. Well, I've got news for you. Slob hunters come in all flavors. As to the woods being too crowded, there are FEWER hunters today than in the 70's, and if we listen to guys like you, the numbers will continue to drop. With fewer numbers comes less political strength. Hope you'll be happy when the woods are empty because the anti's have banned hunting.

cjclemens · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2012, 04:50:10 PM »

You've given me quite a bit to think about here, so I'll take this one piece at a time:

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It is snobism.

Like I said, you can call it whatever you want. I've given my opinion. Its not based on any sort of data or fact. It's nothing more than my personal feelings on the matter. I have no intention of arguing over semantics.

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You are making the assumption that compound users are not slob hunters and crossbow users are.

I am not. I am making the assumption that a larger percentage of crossbow hunters are slob hunters than compound bow hunters. Just as traditional archers assumed when the compound bow was introduced. I'm also assuming that a large number of slob hunters who hunt with other devices will run out and purchase crossbows and be an even bigger annoyance to other hunters.

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Slob hunters come in all flavors.

This is not news.

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there are FEWER hunters today than in the 70's

Can you show me where you found this information? I wasn't around in the 70's to count hunters. ASSUMING it is true - the fact remains that there is also less habitat and less areas where people can hunt than there was in the 70's.

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if we listen to guys like you, the numbers will continue to drop.

Not likely. Disallowing a labor saving device (i.e. crossbow) for deer hunting will NOT keep legitimate hunters out of the woods. For the record, I do not refer to the crossbow as a labor saving device because you draw once and don't have to hold it. I call it a labor saving device because because the nature if the crossbow does not encourage regular use in practice, or mastery of basic marksmanship skills.

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With fewer numbers comes less political strength. Hope you'll be happy when the woods are empty because the anti's have banned hunting.

First of all, this assumes numbers are actually dropping and will continue to drop without the use of crossbows. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't believe the woods will ever be empty. Hunting is part of our heritage and it will never die. The anti hunters are a fairly small group of extreme leftists. I'm far more concerned about anti-gunners and their ability to convince so-called pro-gunners that some "common sense" regulations are necessary for everyone's safety. That's exactly the kind of rhetoric they use to chip away at our rights, but I digress. The slob hunters that we've been talking about are exactly the ones who give anti-hunters the kind of ammunition they need to push their agenda - so we oughta do what we can to keep them out of the woods.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2012, 05:14:40 PM »

Those hunters you are worried about are what my family called "thin rinds". First hard frost they are leaving the woods, and by the first hard freeze they are not to be seen again.

There will be plenty of crossbows at garage sales in a couple years. Those "thin rinds" are going to find out it is tough to get within 30yards of a whitetail. Hitting them might not be a problem getting within range will be.

Those left standing at the end of the winnowing will be those you are used to sharing the woods with I'll bet. The faces will be different but the character will be recognizable.

I am the exact same hunter who carried a bow for the first 25 years of my hunting career, now I carry a gun. Am I a slob hunter for having joined the ranks of gun hunters? Hunter numbers are declining, we will need the support sooner than we might guess. Excluding people will not help you.

cjclemens · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2012, 12:11:38 PM »

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Am I a slob hunter for having joined the ranks of gun hunters?

Not necessarily. Not all gun hunters are slob hunters. I don't think all crossbow hunters are, either. I just think those "thin rinds" are more likely to be attracted to the easy to use nature of firearms and crossbows. My position is opinion driven - its more of a catch-22 than anything. Its also just about as defensible as saying people need to take an IQ test to get their driver's license. Sounds good to me, but not really practical. I hope you're right about all this, but I'm just not that optimistic. If hunter numbers really are declining, we need the RIGHT kind of support. Thin rinds, slob hunters (whatever you want to call them) aren't the kind of hunters that give our cause vocal or intelligent support. That being said, the bill is passed and likely to be signed by Gov. Quinn - making this whole discussion one big moot point. We'll find out what happens soon enough. I, for one, just don't think Illinois needs crossbows out in the field.

Casull · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2012, 12:59:18 PM »

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I, for one, just don't think Illinois needs crossbows out in the field.

What does "need" have to do with anything. Kind of sounds like those gun grabbers that say "why does anyone need a gun".

Casull · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2012, 01:04:33 PM »

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I just think those "thin rinds" are more likely to be attracted to the easy to use nature of firearms and crossbows.

That's actually kind of funny. Compounds are pretty dang easy to use also. A couple of years back, I picked up my compound bow, which I hadn't shot in over two years. Now, this is an old Ben Pearson cam bow with wood riser, 3 pin sight, no peep, no stabilizer, no 80% letoff (heck I think it's like 35% letoff) and I shoot it with my fingers (no trigger release). First six arrows grouped into about 6 inches at 20 yards. Yep, them compound bows sure take a lot of practice and marksmanship training.

cjclemens · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2012, 06:28:58 PM »

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Kind of sounds like those gun grabbers that say "why does anyone need a gun".

That is absolutely ridiculous and categorically false. Are we really down to making outrageous statements that have no bearing on the topic? Firearm ownership is a right granted us by the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution and it is certainly not in question here. What I am trying to say (please pay attention this time) is that Illinois policy makers need to make decisions based on habitat and herd management - not volume of deer permit sales. I believe that there are better ways to meet herd management goals, which I have already mentioned. I also believe that permitting crossbow use will have the unintended consequence of drawing a whole bunch of morons out into the field during bow season.

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First six arrows grouped into about 6 inches at 20 yards.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Is it that your old bow still works or is it that you're an expert marksman and you don't even have to practice?

Casull · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2012, 03:41:26 AM »

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What I am trying to say (please pay attention this time) is that Illinois policy makers need to make decisions based on habitat and herd management - not volume of deer permit sales.

Well, you see, I also believe that those decisions should also be based in part on providing sport and recreation for hunters, and not just elitist type compound hunters.

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I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Is it that your old bow still works or is it that you're an expert marksman and you don't even have to practice?

I thought it was pretty obvious, but I'll explain it to you (pay attention now). My point is that a compound bow is MUCH easier to master than a traditional bow and does not require much practice. Now, throw in a two point sighting system and a trigger release and it becomes even easier yet. Kind of deflates your lame argument that compound users are more "legitimate" hunters than crossbow users. Any questions?

GRIMJIM · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2012, 10:45:53 AM »

We need to cool this down a little you guys. It's not horrible yet but I feel it getting worse day by day. I've never had to lock a topic yet.

Casull · « **Reply #20 on:** June 14, 2012, 11:04:06 AM »

Sorry Jim. Snobs just irritate me. I'm done.

cjclemens · « **Reply #21 on:** June 14, 2012, 11:36:40 AM »

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We need to cool this down a little you guys.

I'll take the blame for that. I do get carried away playing devil's advocate sometimes.

Casull - For the record, I do not think all crossbow hunters are lazy slobs. And I know not all compound bow hunters are saints out in the woods. What I have stated in this thread is my opinion, no more no less. If I have offended you in any way, I apologize.

Casull · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2012, 01:43:04 PM »

No problem cjclemens. We're all hunters. Just need to stick together. Sorry if I got up to high on my soapbox.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #23 on:** June 15, 2012, 07:04:33 AM »

I am an expatriated Illioit. I started my young life heading down the DNR path there. Something that should be understood is the concept of days afield. One of the ways DNR moniters its success is by counting the number of days sportsman spend out in the woods. A deer hunter must take up a bow if they want more than a couple of weekends of hunting. That market is saturated, period. Add a weapon, add a season... Muzzleloaders, handguns, add a season youth, special hunts,etc. A new

weapon has emerged. Lot's of hype, lots of people interested means lots of pressure on DNR to do something.

Is there some sort a data out there suggesting crossbow hunters have ruined archery season? I don't know, therefore I'm asking. What I can tell you is this, after better than 35 years slinging arrows I see those days as numbered. I have had numerous small rotator cuff injuries. Surgery is not an option I am willing to approach, right now for sure. I have pretty well retired my longbow, we still talk but are not close any longer. A verticle crossbow or modern compound I mean? Lets see, <3' long, check, mechanical triggering device, check, once drawn can be held as long as your bow arm can tolerate the mass of the weapon, check. Whatch where you throw rocks compound hunters, the windows are fragile in your house.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight per se. Best bet I suppose is do your level best to see you mentor those crossbow shooters to be good hunters.

cjclemens · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2012, 05:21:15 PM »

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Is there some sort a data out there suggesting crossbow hunters have ruined archery season?

None that I know of. I never suggested that there is was or ever will be. I replied to this thread to express my own misgivings about the political process behind decisions made regarding deer hunting. I agree that compound bows have become easier and easier to use and shoot - right along with muzzleloaders - to the point where some states are tightening rules on muzzleloader use. I can see that same debate coming up with compound bows in the future as long as technology continues to advance, making them shoot faster and draw easier.

Crossbows were already legal for hunters over 65 and disabled hunters. The day will come (hopefully not too soon) when I start thinking about using a crossbow as well. As far as throwing rocks - I never meant to suggest that crossbows are bad. Nor did I mean to suggest that all crossbow hunters are bad hunters. If anyone took my argument to mean as much, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

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Best bet I suppose is do your level best to see you mentor those crossbow shooters to be good hunters.

I agree, but I would say mentoring all hunters to be good hunters is important. Everyone needs a reminder, once in a while, to follow proper etiquette out in the field.

foxkidd44 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2012, 03:01:47 AM »

any word on if the governor has signed this or not?

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #26 on:** June 19, 2012, 10:12:43 AM »

I certainly wasn't singling anyone out.

I'm old enough to remember when compound bows were given the stink eye. Hell, I give release aids the stink eye, I don't think they are "fair". Beside that I think they are cumbersome and so far I refuse to use one. If I continue to shoot I suppose I'll have to as a 9" axle to axle length

and 2# hold weight

makes for some tricky releases.

Carry on gentlemen I'm going back to MN.

S.B. · « **Reply #27 on:** July 18, 2012, 04:58:45 AM »

Rest your mind guys. Illinois will screw this up too. You'll still have your favotite timber all to yourself.
Steve

cjclemens · « **Reply #28 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:31:01 AM »

Don't be silly, S.B. Our state officials would NEVER do such a thing.

JBlk · « **Reply #29 on:** August 27, 2012, 01:32:22 AM »

Looks to me like a poachers dream that came true.If this state has so many deer that we can let everyone use a crossbow then we better do away with this -permit drawing and sell the tags across the counter,Currently the conservation officers are being used more as state police officers and each man has three or four times the area that he should be covering.The state politicans rob the conservation fund for their pet projects and the DNR has nothing to operate on.Many of our CPOs don;t even know if they will have a job next year.