Ruger No. 1 in 6.5 Swede vs. .30-30, Big Surprise to me

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,
 
   Here are the parameters:
 
   1.  I'm thinking of getting a Ruger No. 1A.  I want it to be in a Classic caliber.  I narrowed it down to the 6.5 Swede or the .30-30.
 
    2.  I only shoot factory ammo, in medium quality name brands, such as Remingon Core Lokt, and Pru, Pratzi.
 
    3.   I only hunt deer, and would never shoot much past 200 yards.
 
    So which caliber should I choose?   It's a no-brainer right?  The Swede.  Because it shoots so much flatter? 
 
    Wrong!   What a surprise.
 
    If you compare standard loadings of the Swede in factory ammo (140 grain, pushed at 2,400 fps), with standard loadings for the .30-30 (150 grain ammo, at 2,390 fps), the trajectory is extremely similar.
   If you sight the Swede to shoot 2.4 inches high at 100 yards, it is dead on at 200 yards, and has an MPBR of 238 yards.
   If you sight the .30-30 to shoot 2.9 inches high at 100 yards, it is just .6 inches low at 200 yards (so half an inch higher at 100 yards, and half inch lower at 200 yards!), and has an MPBR of 225 yards. 
  (These numbers are from the Chuck Hawes trajectory charts, and can be confirmed by looking at manufacturer's trajectory charts.)
   So in effect, there is virtually no real world difference in the trajectory at these ranges for the Swede and the lowly .30-30.
  Yes, I know that you can buy Euro ammo in the Swede, that pushes the 140 grainer up to 2,600 fps., but you can also buy Lever Evolution rounds for the .30-30 that boost it by nearly as much as well, so you end up in the same place.  I wouldn't be buying any of these anyway, because they just cost too much.
 
   And yes, I know that the Swede has an unbelievable BC and very deep penetration, but we are shooting whitetails so who cares.  The .30-30 softpoints are almost a perfect round for deer, and we ain't shooting European Elk!
 
    Just thought I would pass this info along.   Maybe it doesn't surprise you, but it floored me.
 
   And though you can get the Swede ammo for about $17 a box, you can get the Federal and Remington ammo in .30-30 for about $12 to $14 a box every year during the big box store sales at hunting season.
 
   Best, Mannyrock
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[44 Man]

Yes, the lovable old 30-30 is a much more capable round than most of us give it credit for!  But in the interest of having something a little bit different; a swede is a neat round.  Of course I enjoy showing up at deer camp with my old H&R 30-30 and bringing down a deer while all the guys with all of their whiz bang super mags are missing because they are flinching from the recoil.  They claim a lot of paper ballistics about the long range potential of their guns, then turn around and miss a deer at 60 yds!  44 Man

[Swampman]

I'd like to get the .30-40 Krag.

[Cheesehead]

7.62x54 Russian, so much cheap surplus ammo.

Cheese

[mrbumps]

I was lucky enough to get one of the 30-40 Krags from a recent uncatalogued run of about 29 that Ruger did.
 

 
I've loaded up a couple different combinations and hope to shoot it next week.

[mannyrock]

 
Guys,
 
   I have been seeing a whole lot of talk about the .30-40 Krag on these boards in the past few months.  I wonder if there is a true resurgence in the popularity of this round, or whether this is just the appreciation being expressed by older experienced hunters for an older but unpopular round?

[bilmac]

I think it is mostly about having something a little bit different. I'm succeptable to that urge myself, but practical differences where the bullet hits the meat are slim.

[mauser98us]

I was lucky enough to get one of the 30-40 Krags from a recent uncatalogued run of about 29 that Ruger did.
 

 
I've loaded up a couple different combinations and hope to shoot it next week.

I was lucky enough to get one of the 30-40 Krags from a recent uncatalogued run of about 29 that Ruger did.
 

 
I've loaded up a couple different combinations and hope to shoot it next week.

Only 29? That seems like an odd number.

[mrbumps]

Ruger did a sepcial run of 100 in 30-40 Krag for Cabelas that were stocked with Circassian Walnut.  My hunch is that they had some extra barrels left over from that, and did a short run of the 29.   They do that from time-to-time.  Lipseys actually receive a few more Number 1's in 6.5x55.

[RevGeo]

Guys,
 
   I have been seeing a whole lot of talk about the .30-40 Krag on these boards in the past few months.  I wonder if there is a true resurgence in the popularity of this round, or whether this is just the appreciation being expressed by older experienced hunters for an older but unpopular round?

I think maybe experienced hunters can appreciate the fact that a 180gr .30 cal bullet travelling at close to 2,400fps is quite capable of taking any American game with a well placed shot. I'm also pretty sure that nostalgia plays a big part. I hunt with a 30-40 quite a bit and it works very well on deer and elk out to 200 yards, which is a long shot in my part of the country.
I've noticed a resurgance of popularity of the 30-30 lately as well. Of course it has remained quite popular with deer hunters over the years, but back in the 70s the gun magazine writers made a career out of bad mouthing the fine old round.
The 20th century, with it's major wars that coincided with an unprecedented growth of technology, was a time of great leaps and bounds in firearm development. To many gun makers and ammo companies increases in velocity was seen as the key to the future of gun technology. And understandably so - after all, what else was there? Modern bullet designs resulted from needing projectiles that would stand up to the increases in velocity. People like Roy Weatherby and Parker Ackley were at the forefront of high velocity development in the sport shooting world, but until Bruce Hodgdon commercialized slow burning military surplus powders large capacity cases with relatively small bores didn't show that much velocity increase.
Unfortunately many people thought that there was a necessity for velocities much greater from what came before. Obviously higher velocity lead to flatter trajectories that make long range shots easier, but in reality shots over 300 yards are iffy at best in the game fields.
Older cartridges like the 30-40, .303 Brit and 7X57 Mauser are all very capable cartridges out to 300 yards. Older riflemen know that these cartridges are wonderful, accurate hunting cartridges and I think that Bill Ruger's chambering of those very cartridges in his fine #1 single shot rifle reflects this very well.
Just my opinion and worth every cent you paid for it.

[Sourcenemy]

Hey hey Sweden here;) i was just wondering about the difference after 200yrd? say 250 and even 300 that i personaly shot at ever so often( mostly at Grouse and other medium-big birds we hunt here) im pretty sure the exelnt 30-30 might have some issues when getting out to those numbers or am i all wrong? dont own a 30-30 only tried it but with my Husqvarna 1640 6.5x55 i have no problems making 250-300m (273-328yrd) shots as long as i have a proper shoting rest.

[mannyrock]

Source,
 
   No question that for shots past 200 yard, a hot Swede round is preferable!  My OP said deer only, out to 200 yards only.
 
Regards, Mannyrock
 
 
 
   

[Sourcenemy]

Yepp i saw that was just wondering since you had looked both up;) and my 2 cents would be go with a Swede hard to fail with us;) and who knows maybe there will be times when hunting deer and somethingelse pops up and you sits there with a Swede and all you need is to aim shoot? with a 30-30 you'll be sitting there thinking "nice wild life wish a deer would show so i get to hunt some also..."

[keith44]

150 grain bullet at 2,390 from a 30-30 is a hot load...better to shoot over a chronograph than to use manufacturers claimed velocity.  Actual is probably more like 2,250 to 2,300.

[twoshooter]

Some of that depends on barrel length. In a 20" 94 Win, that is true. My 26" commemorative can turn out a 2450 fps with a factory load. The 22" handi probably around 2325-2350.

[hillbill]

bottom line is yu cant go wrong with either caliber within your limitations.i reload so that  i dont have as many limitations.a good reload in the swede just does stuff nobody understands till yu see it.that long skinny bullet is hard to beat for penatration on difficult angle shots. but if yu like the 30-30 i cant fault you for that.i like it too.

[ratherbefishin]

don't make no diference which one you use if you don't hold it straight...

[44 Man]

I'm back. ha ha.  Just a little info here, I have clocked the Remington 150 gr flat nose at 2395 fps from my 22" handy.  I have not had the opportunity to clock the 125 pointed Sierria's that I load to max book.  I think any of the calibers mentioned would be fine.  Of course in the interest of being different, I'd do an AI on the 30-40, then you can load it so close to the '06 that there is no difference between them.  Of course I can also do an AI on the 30-30.  Add a pointed bullet and load it to max and you have an easy 300 yd gun.  Then there is the 6.5 which has taken everything from mice to moose because it has been the most popular cartridge in Sweden so people use what they have.  If you are experienced with the 30-30, you will not feel underguned either.  They will all do what you ask of them if you do your part and put the bullet where it belongs.  Pick one and just shoot the heck out of it!  44 Man
 
 
Nope, my old Handi Topper 30-30 doesn't have the classic lines of a No 1 Ruger,
but then, it didn't cost as much either.  But this old gun shoots as well as any
centerfire I have ever owned.  But of course I would still like a No 1 also! 

[SHOOTALL]

So why can't you load some of the 130 gr bullets for 30 cal. and shoot deer ?

[tomtomz]

A Ruger #1 in 7x57 is a delight, and the recoil is manageable to the point that you can follow your shot without the barrel kicking up much.

[Winter Hawk]

I'd like to get the .30-40 Krag.

A .30-30 Handi reamed out to .30-40 Krag works fine for me.  As mentioned, maybe not as pretty as the Ruger but a lot less spendy also.

-Kees-

[JPShelton]

I totally understand the attraction to the No.1.  When I was a boy, the first rifle that I yearned for was the Ruger Number 1 as advertised near the front of my dad's American Rifleman magazines.  The No.1 was my "holy grail" rifle and it still is.  I've bought four of them -a Tropical in .375, and 1-B's in .270 Winchester (my first), .300 Weatherby Magnum, and .30-'06.  I parted with three of them, but will never part with the .30-'06.
 
I'm a huge fan of the .30-30, too.  My first rifle was a Marlin 336 so chambered, which I have owned since I was eleven years old.  I've used it every year for the past 37 years.  I've only shot one whitetail with it, but I've shot two pronghorns, a half dozen elk, about a dozen blacktails, and more feral pigs than I can count. 
 
The .30-30 and .30-'06 are tied for first with me as most favorite centerfire rifle calibers.
 
So, for all of the above, if my choice was between a No. 1-A in .30-30 or another in 6.5 Swedish Mauser, I'd go for the .30-30.
 
That said, I'd much rather have my No.1-B in .30-'06 and have my .30-30 be launched from a Marlin 336.
 
The only other No.1 I'd even consider trading off mine for is one of those recent production ones chambered for .303 British.  If I wanted the lighter 1-A, that's the one I'd be tempted to opt for.  Since that wasn't included in the OP's parameters, I'd go with the .30-30.

[kevpack]

That is surprising Mannyrock, I would have guessed the swede would have been flatter, whodathunk it

[mcwoodduck]

Personally you look at the price of the 6.5X55 Vs the 30-30 and the 30-30 wins.
Same rifle,  similar ballistics, same recoil, and the only difference between the two is going ot be the amount of factory ammo you can buy and at less than $20 a box for 30-30 and more for the 6.5X55.
No matter how much I like the 6.5X55.
The two are going to act the same on game.
For some reason the gun writters dislike 30-30 and make it sound like it will bounce off a chipmonk at 20 yards.  some how they do not like the round nose bullets.
When in fact it is very similar to many of the mauser rounds.  The Remngton load for the 8mm Mauser is very similar to 30-30 in ballistics. 
 

[xhare]

When it comes to trajectory, the most important factor is the time of flight of the bullet.  Those super pointy 6.5mm bullets will have an advantage, but as a previous poster stated, it doesn't really show up till you talk about longer ranges.  As you shorten the range, as long as you are dealing with similar velocities and bullet weights, then caliber and bullet shape have less and less affect on trajectory.  Superior aerodynamics takes a while to really change trajectory.  Now, there can be a greater difference in retained energy, but as the original post stated, we are only talking about deer.   

Years ago I read an article comparing 30-06 round nose, spitzer flat base, and spitzer boat tailed bullets (I think 180 grain bullets). Out to 150 yards or beyond, their trajectories were virtually identical.  The author made the point that the vast majority of hunters are well served with basic old fashioned round nose bullets.  Indeed he made the claim that hunters were better served by round nose bullets as they supposedly hand an accuracy and performance (on game) advantage over boat tailed bullets of the day.   This was before bonded, or all copper, or plastic tipped bullets were commonly available and boat tails had a reputation for reduced accuracy and readily shedding their jackets. 

[ratherbefishin]

I know this isn't going to win any arguements around the camp fire about''which is the best deer rifle'' but I have killed well over 60 deer in my life and 95% were under 50 yards,which means whether you used a 30/30 or a 6.5x55[my favourite]was pretty much irrelevant.I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I fired more than two shots,so that virtually eliminates any diference between a single shot [which would have filled my freezer just as well] and any other multiple shot rifle be it a  bolt action, pump or semi automatic.Get close, take your time and  pick your shot is WAY more important than what rifle is in your hands.The only one I WOULDN'T pick is something too heavy or too big.

[Winter Hawk]

I'm a huge fan of the .30-30, too.  My first rifle was a Marlin 336 so chambered, which I have owned since I was eleven years old.  I've used it every year for the past 37 years.  I've only shot one whitetail with it, but I've shot two pronghorns, a half dozen elk, about a dozen blacktails, and more feral pigs than I can count. 
 

Now that has to be a big windy!  EVERYONE knows that the .30-30 won't kill an elk, and is just barely passable for deer at under 100 yards.  You need at least a .300 magnum superspitter, and that is just barely going to do the job!  A half dozen elk with a Marlin 336 in .30-30 caliber indeed.  Humph.  See if I believe you!   

-WH-

[tomtomz]

Hunting Elk on horseback may allow you to get closer to the elk.

My Grandfather did this and took elk in WY with 30/30 and 35 REM.

Then again, his skills were very good and he used the tools he had.

[Lloyd Smale]

the swede is just idling with a 140 at 2400 fps. its easily capable of 300 to 400 fps more out of a #1 with a 22 inch barrel. I would have to guess that even factory ammo from norma would leave that in the dust. I love the 3030 as much as the next guy but if 300 yard deer were on the plate id take the swede hands down. the 30-40 that others suggested would be a much closer comparison. Keep in mind too that for larger game the deer the swedes better sectional density and better constructed bullets are again going to put it in a differnt leauge. that said the 3030 out of a #1 would be plenty good for any 200 yard deer shooting.

[JPShelton]

I'm a huge fan of the .30-30, too.  My first rifle was a Marlin 336 so chambered, which I have owned since I was eleven years old.  I've used it every year for the past 37 years.  I've only shot one whitetail with it, but I've shot two pronghorns, a half dozen elk, about a dozen blacktails, and more feral pigs than I can count. 
 

Now that has to be a big windy!  EVERYONE knows that the .30-30 won't kill an elk, and is just barely passable for deer at under 100 yards.  You need at least a .300 magnum superspitter, and that is just barely going to do the job!  A half dozen elk with a Marlin 336 in .30-30 caliber indeed.  Humph.  See if I believe you!   

-WH-

Well, you probably won't believe my tales of elk wacking with a "dang fine coyote rifle" in the form of the .270 Winchester, or felling these bulletproof brutes with a patched .495" ball from my Lyman Great Plains Rifle, either.    

If I get another horse before my next elk hunt, I'll be using my 336 to get my next elk.  If not, I'll packing my Ruger No.1 in .30-'06.
JP