manufactures ammo POI regulation

[Scibaer]

i read alot about manufactures"regulating" the sights for a good POI at a certain distance.
is that just more internet myth or does the maker actually turn thier barrels to make a specific POI ?

 if that is the case i have a few questions..

 how do they do this ?
 preform this on every handgun ?
 at what disctance ?
 with what grain powder and bullet combo ?
and most importantly..  how can a hand gunner  get this info for thier specific firearm ?
and would that be the best reciept to use for reloading to match for a real nice shooter?

[shot1]

Most manufactures do regulate their pistols with fixed sights to shoot a common load. For instance the 45 Colt will have sights regulated to the average load of a 250 gr bullet at between 800 and 900 fps. The 38 Special will have sights regulated to 158 gr bullets at around 850 fps. 357 mag 158 gr around 1200 fps or so.

I have turned barrels that shot right or left and filed or built up sights on many pistols to get them to shoot where I aimed with my most accurate hand loads.

It is easy to turn a barrel. Remove the ejector housing off the barrel and remove the cylinder. Get some hard wood blocks and clamp them in a vise. Drill a hole between where the halves meet that will be large enough for you to wrap a piece of leather around your barrel and clamp in to wood blocks and hole the barrel tight. Get you some rosin, I use a baseball pitchers rosin bag cut open an pour out the rosin on a piece of leather and rub some on the barrel. Wrap the leather around the barrel and clamp it in wooden blocks in a vise. Place some masking tape around the barrel and a piece on the top strap where the barrel and frame meet. Draw you a line across both pieces of tape. This will allow you to see how much you have turned the barrel. Take a length of hard wood that will fit into the cylinder window of the frame to use as a wrench. If you want to tighten the barrel to move your POI to the left you need to loosen it first then tighten it. To move your POI to the right loosen the barrel and then tighten it up but don't go too far. Watch your drawn lines on the tape and it will allow you to see home much you have moved the barrel. It does not take much to move POI a lot. Trial and era is the only way to find out what you have done.

[Scibaer]

ok so what i keyed in on was the 'common load' comment..
 is that an industry standard ? how does someone know what the common load is for any given caliber ?
and wouldnt it have to be made of a certain grains of powder too ?

[jimster]

Well I think the "common load" thing is usually like .45 colt = 250 gr bullet around 850 or so, 38 spl 158 grain at normal moderate speeds, and so on like that....they can't give you grains of powder, what kind of bullet and powder, the exact diameter of the bullet, or anything like that.
Distance...who knows...but basically after buying a bunch of fixed sighted guns in my lifetime, only a few have hit to my POA with my favorite loads, most fixed sighted guns you have to work with to get them where you want, and SHOT1 explained how to turn a barrel pretty good there.
Out of all the fixed sighted guns I have bought only a few have been good for me, and I can pretty much much name them off, one Charter Arms bulldog .44spl, one old Uberti model, one Ruger Vaquero, two Smith model 36's, and a USFA single action....oh...and one old beat up Taurus Brazilian police model in 38 spl....which leaves a helliva of alot of fixed sighted guns that needed the barrels turned or some work with a file to either open up the groove or thin one side of the front sight.  But..once you get it shooting the load you want where you want, your good to go forever.
Chances of getting a fixed sight handgun that shoots exactly where you want at a certain distance are not real good.  Even if they get the windage right by accident on your load, they still don't know if you want it sighted at 25 or 50 yrds...you'll still have to mess with the front sight for height.
Just my 2 cents

[Scibaer]

yeah, shot1 explained turning the barrel. i am more interested in the 'who knows' stuff.

here is my thought. i think this does or at least should apply to guns with adjustable sights too.
my reasoning is, manufacturers want the common load to be POI at the center of motion of the sights.. that way there
is some adjustability in them ?? at atleast in elevation ? does that make sense?

i think the range would be "point blank" not the tv and movie point blank range but the real PBR of whatever bullet
like  your example of a .45 of 250 grs. @ 850 fps at maybe 75 yards

or am i crazy ?

[gcrank1]

The old Colt's man, J.H. FitzGerald used to sight in, IIRC, from an angled table rest for both forearms at 15yds. with factory std. ammo.
As you can see, that position will have a decided difference in recoil impulse and POI if you hold it out one handed, and even Weaver wont be quite the same.

[Lloyd Smale]

believe me not many manufactures go out and shoot every gun to regulate it. It would cost a fortune! and guess who would pay for it. What they do is go with a blade hieght that gives vertical shot placement with average ammo or at least low so you can file to raise it. Side to side is pot luck. they tighten the  barrel till the sight blade looks veriticle and sometimes dont even do an even half @@@ job of doing that. Maybe with high end guns like usfa or FA they might regulate them but even then id have to see it to believe it. Not much sense in even doing it. Why regulate it when you arent going to shoot the same as the guy regulating and chances are will have different ammo.

[44 Man]

Yup, what he said.  The 'older' guns gave me fits as many were patterened after the old Colts and shot about 6" high at 25 yds!  The front sights were way too short.  I have sold many guns that I really liked because of the hassle of needing to build up the front sights.  That problem seems to have mostly gone away.  Most of the single action guns I have bought in the last 15/20 years have had front sights that were a little tall requiring me to file a little off them for my loads.  Many seem to be sighted in for slow 'cowboy' loads but that is easily corrected.  Same with ALL snub .38's I have bought.  They have been sighted in for 158 rn at about 700 fps and required a little file work to bring up for my loads.  44 Man

[Scibaer]

 well how do they figure the height of the front sight ?
is it based on the poi of the common load ? or some firearm geometry
 

[poorcountrypreacher]

Yup, what he said.  The 'older' guns gave me fits as many were patterened after the old Colts and shot about 6" high at 25 yds!  The front sights were way too short.  I have sold many guns that I really liked because of the hassle of needing to build up the front sights.  That problem seems to have mostly gone away.  Most of the single action guns I have bought in the last 15/20 years have had front sights that were a little tall requiring me to file a little off them for my loads.  Many seem to be sighted in for slow 'cowboy' loads but that is easily corrected.  Same with ALL snub .38's I have bought.  They have been sighted in for 158 rn at about 700 fps and required a little file work to bring up for my loads.  44 Man

44 Man has described my experience with my .45 Colt SAA exactly. Most of my loads that I have tried in it shoot ok L-R, but they are all about 6" high at 25 yards. Somebody, maybe somebody on this forum, pointed out that these guns were designed for cavalry use and were sighted in for 70 yards, and Colt has just continued to make them that way. I haven't tried shooting it at 70 yards, but that sounds about right. I solved the problem by buying a fiber optic stick and filing it down to 1/8" thick and then super gluing it to the top of the sight. Now it is not only on target at 25 yards, but I can pick it up in low light conditions. Did a little deer hunting with it last season, but shot right over her back on the only shot I had. There was a limb in my way that messed me up.


Gonna try harder to get one with it this season. I did reinforce it with scotch tape over it while hunting. Gave it a little more strength when taking it in and out of the holster.

[gcrank1]

Calc the sights? Well. the handgun barrel points down from the line of the sights on the top. The gun rotates upward upon firing, so that rotation is a factor of the std. factory load AND the way we each grasp the thing, so you can well guess that the POI is going to be somewhat different. I am quite confident that they out 'em together as is 'supposed' to work, but it ain't necessarily going to hit spot on for many of us. When you find one that hits kinda naturally for you, you better hang onto that puppy!