Do you remember how the war in Vietnam started ?

[ironglow]

  Of course;
 
  It started with just a few "advisers" sent there by JFK...along about 1962.  It escalated from there, do some not learn from earlier mistakes ? 
 
  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8828528/Barack-Obama-deploys-US-special-forces-to-central-Africa.html

[m-g Willy]

Seems to me it started with "GREETINGS" !!

[yellowtail3]

I remember; Turner Joy & Maddox claimed they were attacked by NV PT boats. Jim Stockdale, CO of VF-53, personally flew the mission from Ticonderoga to 'assist' the two destroyers. He saw NOTHING - just he destroyers shooting, never saw any VN boats. He flew back to the carrier, went to bed, and was awakened next AM and told the admiral wanted him to plan retaliatory strike. He sat up in bed and foresaw that we were about to launch a war on false pretense.

[SM Bob]

It actually started earlier than that. The French treated the Vietnamese people like garbage. I have many Vietnamese friends who confirmed this. By treating the people like this it gave birth to groups like the Viet Mihn and later the Viet Cong. When the French got their rear ends handed to them and completely messed the whole situation up over there they left with their tail between their legs and we came in and took over where they left off. The rest is history.
 
Robert
 

[George Foster]

Our involvement actually started in 1959 when Ike sent the first advisors into Nam.

[ironglow]

   The war started officially as YT said, but the fighting for us, started (as I see it) with JFK inserting "advisers"; Special Forces troops training the soldiers of South Vietnam.
   Point is..isn't the same mistake being perpetrated here ?  Most of Africa is a quagmire, from Egypt to Somalia to Nigeria and beyond, what can we hope to accomplish there, other than to get bogged down again ?
 
  Isn't our president the same guy who promised during his campaign that he would..stop the wars and bring the troops home ?

[muznut 54]

The French made lamp shades out of human Vietnamese skin and shrunken heads, we were crazy to get involved and GF is right our involvement started with Ike.

[ironglow]

The French made lamp shades out of human Vietnamese skin and shrunken heads, we were crazy to get involved and GF is right our involvement started with Ike.

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  Do you mean that about the French ?  That is news to me..the only ones I have heard of recently by a "civilized" nation was  Frau Ilse Koch at Buchenwald concentration camp.  AKA "the B- t -h of Buchenwald".
  Seems she picked live, elaborately tattooed skins to make her decorative lampshades.  Wow! She would have a field day today..
 
  I am genuinely curious to se if the Fench copied her, can you furnish a link or two ?

[magooch]

Regardless of advisors sent by Ike and Kennedy, the real quagmire started when that idiot Johnson sent 500,000 troops over there.

[muznut 54]

IG I have no links I watched it on the History or military channel it was several long programs about the history of Vietnam and they said how they sent the lamp shades and heads back to France for souvenirs but I think it was like a hundred years or more ago.

[ironglow]

  Here's old Ilse Koch..  and a photo of a panel from one of her lampshades.. people with striking tattoos were in jeopardy at Buchenwald.. http://www.auschwitz.dk/women/Koch.htm
 
      http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscrapbook/DachauTrials/IlseKoch.html   

[nomosendero]

  Here's old Ilse Koch..  and a photo of a panel from one of her lampshades.. people with striking tattoos were in jeopardy at Buchenwald.. http://www.auschwitz.dk/women/Koch.htm
 
      http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscrapbook/DachauTrials/IlseKoch.html

.
 Pretty sure all that lampshade, shrunken heads, human soap talk all went away..disproven or oddities and props for Billy Wilder's first holocaust movie. Starting with Gen Luicus Clay who shortly after Koch's trial, commuting her sentence from life to four years, General Lucius Clay commented:
.
"My examination of the record, based upon reports which I received from the lawyers, indicated that the most serious charges were based on hearsay and not on factual evidence." ( <referring to Frau Koch) More specifically, General Clay said: "There was no convincing evidence that she selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skin or that she possessed any articles made of human skin."
.
You know, around war zones and after complete anniliation of an enemy...the victors get to write history anyway they see fit...I'd be careful believing everything the victors put out after WW2 which was a major victory for the New World Order syndicate; especially in view of what went on in Germany post war, which was simply horrid.
.
....TM7

Yea, all made up, like the films of our GI's making Germans walk through Concentration Camps, never happened!!
Yea, the plot to start this rumor was probably at a Jewish Pawn shop in Cleveland
Yes, be very careful

[magooch]

Just checking if I've got this straight.  Someone doesn't believe Nazi atrocities, but they firmly believe George Bush brought down the twin towers.  Hhhmmmm!

[dukkillr]

Just checking if I've got this straight.  Someone doesn't believe Nazi atrocities, but they firmly believe George Bush brought down the twin towers.  Hhhmmmm!

And neither question has anything to do with the topic!

[leadbutt]

The war as you call it started with Roosevelt and Truman refusing to give aid to Ho when asked to fight the Japanese, he like Castro was neither a commie or socialist until we decided they where not worth helping, they all turned to those that would and the out come is history

[ironglow]

Just checking if I've got this straight.  Someone doesn't believe Nazi atrocities, but they firmly believe George Bush brought down the twin towers.  Hhhmmmm!

Framing the question as you did; I don't know what General Clay would say about the Bush towers collossso fiasco, but he said as German occupation commander that Frau Koch was not responsible for the alledged atrocties, and I quoted him. He released her from prison, but reactionaries retried her in civilian court and sentenced her to life. Now, I use to play around with Genral Clay's grandson growing up.....and I am certain he wouldn't buy into the official conspiracy theory....much more complicated than that just like the holocaust story.. Do wars have atrocities happening?  Heck yeah,,,,that's pretty much what they're all about....including ours....from WW2 , Vietnam, right up to Iracq and Afghanistan...
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Now the mods want us to stay on topic and not wander off on diversions.....so all I got to say before the diversion, is that most all wars are started by false flag attacks and dubious events....a study of history, interviews of main players, and real time particpants shows this to be the case indeed. In fact, in the 'Sport of Kings' that's one of the main objectives_ _get others/proxies to fight your wars for you!
.
...TM7

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  Yup sure!  The millions Jews and and other political "misfits", died in those Nazi "vacation centers"..from too much play and overeating..
   ....And then there was the drugs.. where they all took their clothes off and crowded into a big chamber which resembled showers..and snuffed up all the "Zyklon B"..not good for their health you see...
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B

[ironglow]

Also from TM;
 
  "  Now, I use to play around with Genral Clay's grandson growing up.....and I am certain he wouldn't buy into the official conspiracy theory...."
   ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 OK TM;
 
  Now, my sister-in-law's uncle was General MacArthur.  As a child, she even met him a couple times at family reunions..
  So I know the general already had the nuclear destruction of Hiroshima in mind when he left the Phillipines in 1942..
 
   C'mon TM you've got to do better than that !               

[SHOOTALL]

How we got started in VN , well it goes back before the 50's that's for sure. Teddy Roosevelt made "deals" with Japan , China , Phlipines , Korea etc. It was back when whites thought they were destine to rule the world. England , France and USA had a rush for Asia. The Russians were comming down from the north. Teddy made deals he had no right to make and in the end did not keep up his end of the deal ( note congress had no idea what he was doing) . It lead to WW2 , Koera and VN conflicts in Asia. VN did not occure in the 1950's it had festered since 1900 when it was one of the potrectorates of a white nation which was agreed upon by other white nations the US being one. There are several places these facts can be found THE IMPERAL CRUISE is but one book that outlines the path to conflict in Asia and how many nations were drawn into the war(S)
 
So when you ask do you remember the fact is no one alive today  could remember first hand . Most think of the 50's and the dimono theory but forget the history before that was how it really started .

[ironglow]

Yeah IG,,,I went to school with F. Clay, Jr....we use to hang out....very irreverant bunch we were all right..
I know you're  a big holocaust proponent, but I only mentioned that Frau Koch was released by General Clay who stated that the charges of atrocites against her lacked any evidence...so he released her.  Others have stated same. Perhaps you watched that psycho-sexual B movie about Koch. "Ilse Koch she wolf of Baden-Baden"...or something like that.. ..not a good source of info.
You seem to be wanting two things: a] expound on the holocaust at my expense, and b] use the holocaust to justify your team's endless war against Palestinians and land theft, and moosilimbs at large.
.So B...  above is keeping with the content of this thread....how wars start and are erroneously justified.
.
BTW if you're interested in holocausts,,,there's a book out detailing the Iranian holocaust of 1919 wherein 9 million Iranians were starved and killed by the British...interesting stuff.
.
....TM7

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  You must feel lonely, being  one of the very few in the world who may consider Ilse Koch as a mistreated person.  Apparently Gen Clay was a bit off base, because hardly had he released the "b_ _ _h of Buchenwald"..than the Germans grabbed her and sentenced her to life imprisonment.
  http://suite101.com/article/ilse-koch-she-wolf-of-the-ss-a156147
  Did his grandson ever tell you how close the general's relationship was with Ilse Koch ?
 
  http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/33d/projects/naziwomen/ilse.htm

[SHOOTALL]

Would someone alert me if this ever gets back on track...............

[mcbammer]

Seems    I   remember   the   French   got   the    ball     rolling.

[ironglow]

Would someone alert me if this ever gets back on track...............

.
I'm going to try to.  People who are big fans of wars, employed to make wars, or have a favorite war team most often promote myths or will refuse to examine actual facts, or latch on to false flag events as excuses for their wars. Vietnam is an example of a quite phoney attack that kicked off that little war. Above we have an example of even besmirching the reputation and judgement of one America's more illustrious 4 star generals to garner support for the current perpetual GWOT and occupation shenangins in Palestine. Once again, the people under attack had very little to do with WW2 or any alleged atrocites, or racially motivated stereotypes. The greater population of The People have a responsibility to fetter out these people and their agendi....providing they want to enjoy peace and prosperity, and I rank this process very high on the 'conservative' to do list, b/c making and justifying wars is the opposite of conservatism, imo.
.
.
...TM7

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   Good try TM;
     You said you would try to get the thread back on track...but the thread didn't start with "false flags", "racial stereotypes", "shenanigans in Palestine"..or possible senile WW1 generals..
  It had to do with the small, quiet intervention into a war between indigenous peoples, half a world away; comparing it to Obama's current interventionist  games in the Central African Republic..  Why did he send Spec Ops troops there ?  Did these politicians not LEARN from Vietnam ?
 
  Guess not; he didn't learn yet..from his fiascos in Libya & Egypt !

[ironglow]

Wow!   sheeezzz, !...  ... So IG... now why did you bring Frau Koch and nazi atrocities into this discussion?
.
The thread was about how Vietnam escalated from sneaky diplomatic and historical happenings to a full fledge military intervention....that was indeed promulagated by a phoney Gulf of Tonkin false flag event...same game plan we see in the ME today....Some things don't change much..
.
..TM7

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  Not quite.. the VC didn't come over here and attack the WTC, Pentagon and behead Americans all over the world..
  Come to think of it..neither has that Joseph Kony fellow from the Central African Republic..
 
   Again..Has Obama not learned ?

[blind ear]

The history channel said that Eisenhower established the Bank of South Vietman and that had a lot to do with it. ear