New cannon owner with a couple of questions.

[SRT8MOPAR]

Hey all my name is Brian. I just recently got my first cannon and have been looking forward to using it on the 4th of July. I remember people having them when I was a kid, and loved them. Now that I have my own I want to use it safely and effectively. So first off here is my golf ball cannon.



11" TALL
TRUNNIONS WITH BRONZE BUSHING
3" DIAMETER
1.695 BORE = PERFECT GOLF BALL FIT
8" CLEAR BORE DEPTH
2" DEEP X 1.250 POWDER POCKET
1/8" TOUCH HOLE
16 POUNDS

I have spent most of the morning reading on this site and have found a lot of good information on what I need to do. Unfortunately for me I have been unable to source true black powder locally and won't be able to order on line in time for the fourth. What I have been able to get is Pyrodex RS, which, from I read now, is not that great.  What I mainly want to do is to make some serious noise but I have seen several conflicting bits of information on using pyrodex successfully. 

So hopefully yall might be able to help me make the best of what I got.  The conversion chart that came with the cannon shows that 100 grain of black powder is equal to 68.4 grain of Pyrodex RS. Their recommended max load for a cannon with a 1.5 " bore is 600 grain of black powder or 410.4 grain of Pyrodex RS. I will start with lower than a maximum load and work my way up to see what works best though. I have a digital grain scale by the way.

From my reading pyrodex need pressure to work so what is the best way to make that happen? Will making the cylinder shaped powder charge as described here http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,19438.0.htm.html work as long as I pack it down into the powder chamber with a wooden dowel? Would it need wadding on top of that packed down charge such as bread or blue shop towels or will it only give me a boom when it has a golf ball in it?

This video here shows the same cannon loaded with Pyrodex, and he seems to get a good sound out of it. Which is why i first looked at pyrodex before really digging into the research of it all.

From the user comments:
This is in my backyard loaded with 6 tablespoons of Pyrodex. I load it in foil, pack it very well, and then use 3 papertowles followed by 3 of the blue shop papertowles. This all then is packed again , light the fuse and look out! The blue towels make a big difference.

Thanks in advance
 

[BoomLover]

SRT8MOPAR, welcome to the Forum! We are all about helping newbies, lots of guys here with tons of experience, knowledge, and hands-on practical know-how. First off, what material is your cannon made of? Looks Stainless from the photo. Second, using paper for wadding, especially packed tight, your creating  two things. 1) a projectile! 2) a flaming projectile! Might want to re-think about that before creating an unsafe procedure. (With unintended consequences!) Latest recommendations are handful of lightly damp grass, or flour...

[SRT8MOPAR]

Hi , thanks for the welcome and reply. It's milled out from a solid piece of 4140 alloy steel. I had read about using a foil pack of flour as well. I think it was on this site, the user had called it a "flour burrito". Does that add to the fireball effect? I've hear that using flour with other explosive devices causes a big fireball due to the air trapped between the flour particulate getting ignited. That would be pretty sweet.

[keith44]

Hi and welcome Brian


if you are not actually shooting a golfball Pyrodex and an inflamable wad or damp wad will make plenty of noise for the 4th.  Goex or other real black powder gives more "lift" when shooting projectiles, but any substitute safe for muzzleloaders will go bang, and impress the neighbors er um audience. 


My only concern with 4140 is it will work harden, and become brittle (as most if not all alloys will)  It has a yield strength of aprox 60K psi which is good as long as tight wads and heavy projectiles are not used.  4140 is great for knife blades, but you will never find a gun barrel made from it.

**************************************************************
edit


I have been informed that the alloy may actually be used in rifle barrels, and I may be confused about the alloy numbers...

[Cannoneer]

Welcome to the board, Brian! 4140 steel has been a preferred gun metal for making rifles and pistols for mucho moons, and it doesn't look like any welding has been done on your barrel, so you're in good shape there. BP substitutes will work, but instead of paper towels as wadding, I'd use fresh grass (less of a fire hazard), and you don't need to beat the heck out of the wad, just tamp it down. For wads you could also cut cardboard to match the circumfrence of the barrel's bore, and then soak the cards in baking soda paste (BS and water, and allow to dry) to make them less prone to burning.

[carmy53]

Have you built or bought a base or carriage for the barrel yet? Pics please.

[armorer77]

I am currently in possesion of this barrel . Jeff is building a carriage for it . Since the trunnions thread on I can replace them with larger dia. , I don't want to weld on 4140 because I haven't in 14 years .  Ed

[SRT8MOPAR]

I appreciate the help everyone has provided. I can't wait to see everyone reactions when this thing goes off for the first time. I live in a community of all military people, so it kind of an unspoken competition between people in the neighborhood to make the most noise.

Carmy53: I don't have a carriage for it just yet. I'm going to build a simple yet sturdy one for now, and build a really nice one later.
                        
 

[SRT8MOPAR]

So quick question; is it possible to use this in a vertical position like a thunder mug when shooting just blanks, no projectile?  Or are there different physics that come into play when using small cannons vertically that would make them unsafe?  I’m curious if I could use it to make salutes without having to point it in any one direction.

[carmy53]

So quick question; is it possible to use this in a vertical position like a thunder mug when shooting just blanks, no projectile?  Or are there different physics that come into play when using small cannons vertically that would make them unsafe?  I’m curious if I could use it to make salutes without having to point it in any one direction.

I would be worried about the cannon falling over after the fuse was lit but before it went off. That wouldn't be good.

[GGaskill]

As long as it is securely supported in a vertical position, I see no problem firing it that way.  But you don't want it to be able to fall over by itself.

However, keep in mind that the vent will now be horizontal and fuse remnants and the blast will be going out some direction.  Probably the best solution to that is some kind of barrier that can be placed to knock down/capture the vent debris.

[flagman1776]

One 4th of July, as is our custom, I let loose a salvo over the lake.  Not all the guests had arrived yet...  one vet had just pulled up, in fact.  He was seen to be getting up off the ground next to his car from a cover position...   dusting off his clothes...   (He knew we'd be firing but instinct is very strong!)   I estimate the driveway to be some 500 feet behind our firing position.   Shortly thereafter, he was down, lakeside grinning as he lit the fuse.       

[keith44]

Nice one flagman1776! 

STR8MOPAR, yes it will fire that direction.  My advice would be to have it slightly angled though.  Not for the cannons sake, but for your safety, and that of those who will be watching.  40 - 70% of the charge will exit the barrel as unburnt or burning particles.  Also if you are in a dry area soak the ground down range with a garden hose every couple hours.  Safe position to stand is at 5 o'clock, or 7 o'clock assuming the muzzle is 12 o'clock.  That slight angle will help keep debris away from eyes.

[onegreatshot]

Sprt8mopar, I have an Identical Mtn. Howitzer as you have, It will make a very loud boom. Just follow the instructions given by the maker, as to powder charge. Another thing I would do is read the thread on "FOIL WRAPPING" a powder charge, It will take only a few tries to get it down. This will be perfect for what you want. I believe the thread was re posted for me on or about June 5th this year. Also wash out the barrel and chamber when your done or the burnt powder will stain the end of the barrel. Last but lest, you will need to get either a field carriage or a naval carriage for you Mtn Howie, you didn't buy it to let stand on the ground.   Good Luck and keep reading what goes on here.  Dennis

[flagman1776]

Take note that the debris which is expelled from the Touch Hole will have a lot of power behind it.  Likely landing considerable distance BEHIND the gun.  The advise to retreat to one side or the other on the diagonal is very good advise.  The first time you fire, have a big area clear behind the gun & note where the debris falls & after be sure to always keep adequate area clear.  A little spark of burning fuse, landing on the arm, is something which will stay with you!
Be very careful of eye protection around the touch hole/vent.  A re-enactor group I'm friends with had a novice gunner get his face peppered desite through instructions, his sight saved by his glasses. 
 

[SRT8MOPAR]

I'm glad I found this forum, everyone has been a big help.  I made a foil wrapped charge last night using plastic bags and aluminum foil. I got it to just the right size to fit down into the powder pocket. The foil wrap is fairly firm as it is, but since I'm using Pyrodex should I tamp it down into the pocket even more, or does the wadding provide the needed pressure?
I also made a flour wad using plastic bags and aluminum foil that fits snuggly in to the diameter of the barrel. Should that get tamped down in the barrel to make the Pyrodex more effective, or does the fact that it’s in there provide enough pressure build up? The last thing that I want to do is turn this into a pipe bomb like I keep reading about. With the 4140 steel having such high yield strength wouldn’t the wadding give long before the cannon walls? Assuming it wasn’t filled with something crazy like cement of course LOL
I’m going to cut my grass the day before, or day of, the forth and use the fresh grass as a wadding. I imagine that’s a lot easier than making the flour wads, and it may be just as effective.
 

[keith44]

you will want to ensure the powder bag is fully seated in the chamber, and that there is no air gap between the powder charge and the extra wadding or flour bag.  With the foil package I do not think extra wadding would be needed

[flagman1776]

I find a bit of wad makes it louder.  I use lawn grass or seaweed...  wet & squeezed out as much as possible.  I use a wad "ball" about bore size, only.  Don't plug the bore. 

[Zulu]

Just thinking out loud here.
If your flour is in a plastic bag wrapped in foil, won't it become a projectile?
I always put my bag of flour right on top of my bag of powder then wrapped both in the same foil package.
Zulu

[Double D]

touch hole 

Vent   http://www.taylorsbattery.com/parts_of_a_cannon.htm

[flagman1776]

Please note the Vent "C" on the linked sketch is incorrectly drawn into the bore NOT the chamber. 

touch hole 

Vent   http://www.taylorsbattery.com/parts_of_a_cannon.htm

[Artilleryman]

In tamping foil cartridge bags, you might want to consider that this action may cause the bag to break open.  If I were going to use flour over the powder I would make up a cartridge bag that is long enough for both powder and flour.  Measure in powder then put in a pasteboard disk (from a cereal box), then the flour.  Mark either the powder end or flour end so that you insert the proper end in the barrel first.  I would also make the bag as close to bore diameter as possible but small enough so that it does not hang up in the bore. 

[Double D]

Please note the Vent "C" on the linked sketch is incorrectly drawn into the bore NOT the chamber. 

touch hole 

Vent   http://www.taylorsbattery.com/parts_of_a_cannon.htm

So that makes it a touch hole?

That is an illustration of cannon parts

[Cannoneer]

DD,
I sometimes use the term touchhole (touch hole) instead of vent. As far as I know, it's historically accurate, and a valid part of artillery nomenclature.

[flagman1776]

Sorry.  I didn't know we have an official cannon parts list on this site.  The purpose of language is to communicate successfully.  If we now have the Nomenclature Police, I shall rethink attempting to make helpful posts.

[Cannoneer]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with an accurate nomenclature in any field, to the contrary, I think that it makes the human struggle easier.

This is the reason that I always remind Douglas to say mortar bed, instead of mortar sled, or base.

[Double D]

It is communication, but is it is also about learning. If you are interested in learning we are here to help. If you don't wish to learn just say so,

Sled is wrong, base and bed are both correct.

[Artilleryman]

My personal preference is to use the term vent not touch hole even if there is some historical evidence that supports the use of the term touch hole.  I suppose "fire in the hole" works when you have a slow burning fuse, but fire is about all you can get out when using a friction primer or a percussion primed piece.  It just sounds too much like a mining term to me.  In both cases I know what is meant by the context of what is being discussed.

[keith44]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_hole


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vent


I prefer vent, but touch hole seems more correct.

[flagman1776]

"It involved driving a metal object into the touch-hole thus rendering the gun useless."
http://www.ussconstitutionmuseum.org/proddir/prod/496/3