IS Austerity the way to go? Your opinion

[scootrd]

First what this thread is not . It is not a political party debate DEMS vs Republican VS Libratarian etc.. There are many other threads that one can post too , to take a "Political side".

What this thread is  -  To debate the merits of implementing Austerity measures, I value your input.

Here is my view.

Who are the true "Job creators " ?

In my opinion the true Job creators are the working people not the top 1 percenters.
Right now companies are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash but are not willing to invest because there is no demand.

Why is there no demand ?

There is no demand because we have millions unemployed , therefore they have no $$ no spend to increase demand for companies to invest and employ.

The Austerity approach -

There are some who argue we can cut our way out of this.  more cuts to programs , more cuts to public sector workers etc.. I am not one of them . More cuts means more folks laid off , more laid off folks means less dollars in their pocket to spend on products . less dollars to purchase products leads to less demand so companies are unwilling to invest and employ.

The balanced approach -

I am of the belief we need a balanced approach , yes reducing the deficit is important , yes too large a govt is a prevalent issue . But I view these as a longer term issues. Right now we need to keep as many people employed both public and private as we can , and keep as much money in the hands of the true Job creators (the middle class ) so they can spend those dollars and increase demand so companies can hire.

Eliminate the tax cuts for the wealthy , close loopholes and tax breaks for corporations that outsource Jobs overseas. Provide true tax reform, adopt a balanced approach in Govt spending and increased taxes. Stop the gutting of public workers at a time that only adds to the already heavily laden unemployment numbers , and keep more monies in the hands of the middle class to increase product demand and purchase power. 

in other words , use a scalpel not a hatchet.

More Austerity measures at this economic time will only compound the issue and push us further towards a double dip recession.  I do not believe we can just cut our way out of this. In my opinion the Austerity approach does not work and we need only look at our European friends across the big pond to see what following that path produces.

That's my opinion whats yours?

[magooch]

Government in general is so bloated that it should always be subject to cutting.  Anyone could go through their town and find dozens of examples of waste.
 
Tax cuts for the rich: This is a non-starter, because the so-called rich already pay the majority of taxes.  Nearly half of all income earners pay no income tax at all.  This country does not have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem.
 
Why is business withholding investment?  Simple self preservaion.  With the present federal administration there is so much uncertainty in regulation and new imposed costs (Obamacare), business is very reluctant to commit to anything.  Try to start a new business, or expand and it is mind boggling to deal with all the permits and environazis that are often over and above governmental hurdles.
 
In the area where I live, it has become almost impossible for new industries to move in and start up, because of constant court challenges from environmental interests (non-government).  I'm all for clean air and water, but it remains a fact that you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. 
 
Immigration: Not that I believe for one minute that all the people who come to this country--legally, or illegally--come here to work, but many of them do.  They will work at jobs that a lot of folks think they can't , or won't do.  There are approximately the same number of illegals in this country as there are people who claim to be out of work.  It seems like a no-brainer to me that we have too many illegals and not enough hungry Americans.  That is, hungry enough to do the work that illegals do.
 
If austerity is getting rid of duplicate government agencies, meddling and restrictive agencies and making all governments operate from really balanced budgets, put me down as in favor of austerity. 
 
 

[BBF]

Austerity means to me cut the waste!
 
Stop the meddling in other peoples affairs with these "un-wars".

Stop all immigration if needed.
 
Throw out the commercial treaties as in NAFTA and similar. Stop borrowing money.

Full accountability of public funds.

StreamlineGovt agencies and eliminate those that are a duplication of another doing the same under a different name.

[Empty Quiver]

There is a fundamental problem.
 
There honestly is no need for many of those in the workforce, period. This economy is finished growing. Automation has replaced human labor. Business has been inventing needs for quite some time and they are out of products that need inventing.
 
The economy has been driven by want for quite some time, not by need. How many families need 4 cell phones, three telivision sets, three iPods, a pick-up, two cars, and a motorcycle? Do you need enough clothes that is not a problem to do laundry once every three weeks, a beer fridge in the garage, a gas grill and a charcoal smoker? How about 8 centerfire rifles, 5 handguns and 4 shotguns, as well as a canoe, a bassboat, and nine different rigged rods and reels.
 
The country has stepped back and said I do believe I have achieved the mystical enough.
 
At least that is my take on the economy on a large scale.

[RaySendero]

The US government/political system is just too inefficient at job creation to be any kind or part of a solution!

[magooch]

There is a fundamental problem.
 
There honestly is no need for many of those in the workforce, period. This economy is finished growing. Automation has replaced human labor. Business has been inventing needs for quite some time and they are out of products that need inventing.
 
The economy has been driven by want for quite some time, not by need. How many families need 4 cell phones, three telivision sets, three iPods, a pick-up, two cars, and a motorcycle? Do you need enough clothes that is not a problem to do laundry once every three weeks, a beer fridge in the garage, a gas grill and a charcoal smoker? How about 8 centerfire rifles, 5 handguns and 4 shotguns, as well as a canoe, a bassboat, and nine different rigged rods and reels.
 
The country has stepped back and said I do believe I have achieved the mystical enough.
 
At least that is my take on the economy on a large scale.

Good points, but who gets to define what "needs" are?  I would say that wants have trumped needs for quite awhile in our economy.  I know that my lifestyle today far exceeds those of the very wealthy when I was a kid.  Most of what I have could not be qualified as needs and by almost any standard would be viewed as extreme, but hey, we only live once.
 
But your point is well taken that in so far as the wants slow down, so goes the economy.

[Val]

Some problems with your opening remarks. Companies are holding on to trillions because of impending huge tax hikes coming next year under Obama. In addition huge increases are going to kick in under Obama care which were timed to occur after the elections. The future looks very bleak and business has no long term view of what's gpoing to happen so their holding onto to their cash until the future climate is favorable to business expansion.
Companies are sending their work overseas because they are competing in a global economy. The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world. With continuing increases in taxes and the increases that will occur to health insurance, corporations have no choice but to go offshore. It's the Government that is sending jobs offshore, the corporations have no choice, if they want to remain profitable.
The liberals simply don't understand that there are consequences to their socialist/communist laws. They are completely in denial of the fact that they are a major cause of our economic problems.

[Cabin4]

Yes it is the way to go if I have to answer the question as stated. But the real question is not about Austerity. The real questions are concerning the role of government. Should it be intrusive or not, should be smaller or not, should it take away the Rights of the states? These are the real questions, despite what the 99% or the 1% think the answer is about austerity. And the real truth is there is no 99% or 1% anyway. That's just a class warefare tactic that the Liberals love to use.

[SwampThing762]

We should have spending cuts, as well as a comprehensive tax reform. 

Regarding tax reform, I believe that personal income tax rates should be dropped across the board by 7-10%, and the institution of a federal sales tax of 4% or so [all WWW transactions are currently sales tax free and would contribute to revenues].  Also, I think that the EITC should be cut by 25%.  It encourages women to have more kids than they can afford -- the rest of us work end up paying for it.

Some of the spending cuts I recommend are to the Departments of Education, Energy, Commerce, Labor, and Transportation.   I could live with giving the DoD an annual budget of $426.8 billion, which is 2008 level of spending, and keep spending at that level for 6 years [this includes leaving As-tan and letting the bedsheet bandits continue to kill each other].     

ST762

[saddlebum]

Simple answer from a simple man.
 
Yes!.....You can't spend what you don't have.
At least not for very long. Just ask Greece or Spain. Or China, for that matter. They want to get paid back at some point. Tighten your belt like the rest of us or lose it all. Just like the rest of us................

[gypsyman]

Another yes. Govt. is spending way more than it pulls in. Has for many years, long before Obama. Workers getting paid double for the same job as private sector.(mostly benifits, health ins. and retirement. Same with politicians) Govt. programs that should never be. College loans,foreign aid,private sector bailouts. Tipping point has, I'm afraid, been passed. Time to pay the piper is here. gypsyman

[Val]

TM7,
Alower tax rate based on GDP is a totally irrelevant statistic. The bottom line is that corporations are competing with overseas companies. The overseas companies pay lower taxes, have lower labor rates, lower labor benifits and have less cost bearing regulations. Therefore, they are driven offshore in order to compete. Our corporations aren't competing against the GDP's of other nation they are competing against other companies that make competitive products.

[mcbammer]

There is a fundamental problem.
 
There honestly is no need for many of those in the workforce, period. This economy is finished growing. Automation has replaced human labor. Business has been inventing needs for quite some time and they are out of products that need inventing.
 
The economy has been driven by want for quite some time, not by need. How many families need 4 cell phones, three telivision sets, three iPods, a pick-up, two cars, and a motorcycle? Do you need enough clothes that is not a problem to do laundry once every three weeks, a beer fridge in the garage, a gas grill and a charcoal smoker? How about 8 centerfire rifles, 5 handguns and 4 shotguns, as well as a canoe, a bassboat, and nine different rigged rods and reels.
 
The country has stepped back and said I do believe I have achieved the mystical enough.
 
At least that is my take on the economy on a large scale.

Go   into   Wal-Mart   and   try   finding   the   products   you   mention  that   are   not   made  in  China  .  Other  than  the  the  b boat.  The   consumer  drives   the   economy  .  Todays   consumer   dont   care   where   their   product   they   purchased   is   manufactured  as   long   as  the  price   is   lower   than   a   U. S.  made   product  and  it    is  always   cheaper.Our   fair   trade   policy   needs    work.

[ironglow]

First what this thread is not . It is not a political party debate DEMS vs Republican VS Libratarian etc.. There are many other threads that one can post too , to take a "Political side".

What this thread is  -  To debate the merits of implementing Austerity measures, I value your input.

Here is my view.

Who are the true "Job creators " ?

In my opinion the true Job creators are the working people not the top 1 percenters.  The one percenters offer the jobs, the workers take them and provide product & commerce
Right now companies are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash but are not willing to invest because there is no demand. They are reserving funds because they don't know what their taxes will be next year, and with Obama care looming (or not looming) they have no idea what "per employee" costs they will face.  Too much uncertainty.."ya gotta know when to hold 'em".

Why is there no demand ?  There is little demand because unemployment is high.  Unemployment is high because of the reasons I cited immediately above.

There is no demand because we have millions unemployed , therefore they have no $$ no spend to increase demand for companies to invest and employ.  Obviously.. instead of throwing billions into pie-in-the-sky "alternative energy" expirements, the feds could have  many thousands at work right now...exploring, drilling, refining and distributing conventional energy..along with feeding, rooming, servicing and otherwise catering to those who do...
 
The Austerity approach -

There are some who argue we can cut our way out of this.  more cuts to programs , more cuts to public sector workers etc.. I am not one of them . More cuts means more folks laid off , more laid off folks means less dollars in their pocket to spend on products . less dollars to purchase products leads to less demand so companies are unwilling to invest and employ. It is better economically, to lay off excess govt employees, rather than those in the private sector. Public sector takes funds OUT of the treasury, while private sector jobs put funds INTO the treasury.  A KNOWN factor;  private workers are forced by COMPETITION to be efficient..government is by nature bloated and filled with "dead wood".

The balanced approach -

I am of the belief we need a balanced approach , yes reducing the deficit is important , yes too large a govt is a prevalent issue . But I view these as a longer term issues. Right now we need to keep as many people employed both public and private as we can , and keep as much money in the hands of the true Job creators (the middle class )(debatable) so they can spend those dollars and increase demand so companies can hire.  Public employees only spend dollars ALREADY taken from the treasury....  Better, are jobs which CONTRIBUTE TO the treasury.

Eliminate the tax cuts for the wealthy , close loopholes and tax breaks for corporations that outsource Jobs overseas. Institute a flat tax for EVERYBODY..that way everybody has some "skin in the game".. eliminate loopholes for EVERYBODY..flat tax will take care of that.    Provide true tax reform, adopt a balanced approach in Govt spending and increased taxes.a flat tax and  show good faith by first eliminating all useless, redundant or outmoded govt programs (e.g. Endowment for the Arts, Dept education, stop gifts to ACLU, Planned Parenthood and ACORN etc.   Stop the gutting of public workers at a time that only adds to the already heavily laden unemployment numbers  Farm these jobs out to more efficient, private entities ,   and keep more monies in the hands of the NON TAX ABSORBING middle class to increase product demand and purchase power. 

in other words , use a scalpel not a hatchet.

More Austerity measures at this economic time will only compound the issue and push us further towards a double dip recession.  I do not believe we can just cut our way out of this. In my opinion the Austerity approach does not work and we need only look at our European friends across the big pond to see what following that path produces.  Cutting alone may not do the whole job, but it may make it more manageable..  Turn over such things as the EPA, Post office, alternative energy efforts, federal land management, and commerce to private entities..  much more efficent..less inclined to be political.  In fact their contract should include a-political positions.

That's my opinion whats yours?  You've got it...in blue.

[Cabin4]

Comparing tax % rates to GDP levels is about the dumbest comparison I've seen in a long time.

[Gary G]

First what this thread is not . It is not a political party debate DEMS vs Republican VS Libratarian etc.. There are many other threads that one can post too , to take a "Political side".

What this thread is  -  To debate the merits of implementing Austerity measures, I value your input.

Here is my view.

Who are the true "Job creators " ?

In my opinion the true Job creators are the working people not the top 1 percenters.
Right now companies are sitting on trillions of dollars in cash but are not willing to invest because there is no demand.  Jobs are created when capital is invested into labor and machinery. Capital comes from savings. Low interest rates thwart savings. Who is most likely to invest capital?

Why is there no demand ? Because we have lived on present demand borrowed from the future. Savings represents forgone consumption now in exchange for future demand. Economic intervention has caused this.

There is no demand because we have millions unemployed , therefore they have no $$ no spend to increase demand for companies to invest and employ. A economic correction is the process of the market cleaning out all the mis-alocated resources. Bailouts and stimulus exacerbates the process making it last longer and making it worse in the long run.

The Austerity approach -
Austerity is simply living on what you bring home. It works for individuals, it works for families and it works for countries. To avoid austerity brings bankruptcy.

There are some who argue we can cut our way out of this.  more cuts to programs , more cuts to public sector workers etc.. I am not one of them . More cuts means more folks laid off , more laid off folks means less dollars in their pocket to spend on products . less dollars to purchase products leads to less demand so companies are unwilling to invest and employ. We are probably past the point of no return. There is always demand. It is the nature of people to always want more than they have. You are following the Keynesian argument which is what got us into this predicament in the first place.

The balanced approach -

I am of the belief we need a balanced approach , yes reducing the deficit is important , yes too large a govt is a prevalent issue . But I view these as a longer term issues. Right now we need to keep as many people employed both public and private as we can , and keep as much money in the hands of the true Job creators (the middle class ) so they can spend those dollars and increase demand so companies can hire.

Eliminate the tax cuts for the wealthy , close loopholes and tax breaks for corporations that outsource Jobs overseas. Provide true tax reform, adopt a balanced approach in Govt spending and increased taxes. Stop the gutting of public workers at a time that only adds to the already heavily laden unemployment numbers , and keep more monies in the hands of the middle class to increase product demand and purchase power. 
From here does the money to pay the salaries of government employees come? Is it not from the private sector? Therefore the greater the public sector, the less capital available for the private sector. Remember capital is necessary to create jobs. There in lies one of the problems. Government has never been so large.

in other words , use a scalpel not a hatchet.

More Austerity measures at this economic time will only compound the issue and push us further towards a double dip recession.  I do not believe we can just cut our way out of this. In my opinion the Austerity approach does not work and we need only look at our European friends across the big pond to see what following that path produces.

That's my opinion whats yours?

I think our debt has already reached a point where it is impossible to ever be repaid. Just the yearly deficit is over a trillion. Our government is just trying to make it last until they get out of office at a very huge cost. I think that we should just go ahead and default now. Cut government drastically. Go through a couple of years of hard times and then start over with a new economy. They will not do this. The will rob you of your wealth by printing more dollars which shrinks your purchasing power until you have none left. That will make it last several more years and then it will be much worse. When interest rates begin to rise, as they are in Greece, Spain, and Italy, the Keynesian game will be over.

[BBF]

..........
............................
..........................................
The liberals simply don't understand that there are consequences to their socialist/communist laws. They are.....................

They are however cognisant that this will get them reelected by the rabble.

[Casull]

 

Comparing tax % rates to GDP levels is about the dumbest comparison I've seen in a long time.

       +1

[R.W.Dale]

Here's what's going to have to happen in the next 50 years.

1 the pyramid scheme that is social security will have to go away. Its broke and has been for years. I'm sorry if you actually depended on it but I guess you shouldn't have blown the $$ on that moon trip and the Vietnam war. At 34 yrs old I view it as a productivity tax.

2. I hate to say it but we really need to scale back our military spending. Not so much in terms of boots on the ground but do we REALLY need a navy big enough to kick all of the worlds ass togeather three times over? IMO beyond being mobile airstrips naval surface warfare is a thing of the past.

3. No more farm subsidies. All these are is free $$ paid directly to massive corporations.

[Cuts Crooked]

Here's what's going to have to happen in the next 50 years.

1 the pyramid scheme that is social security will have to go away. Its broke and has been for years. I'm sorry if you actually depended on it but I guess you shouldn't have blown the $$ on that moon trip and the Vietnam war. At 34 yrs old I view it as a productivity tax.

2. I hate to say it but we really need to scale back our military spending. Not so much in terms of boots on the ground but do we REALLY need a navy big enough to kick all of the worlds ass togeather three times over? IMO beyond being mobile airstrips naval surface warfare is a thing of the past.

3. No more farm subsidies. All these are is free $$ paid directly to massive corporations.

Now that sounds like a A good idea.......another Ron Paul supporter no doubt!

[Casull]

1 the pyramid scheme that is social security will have to go away. Its broke and has been for years. I'm sorry if you actually depended on it but I guess you shouldn't have blown the $$ on that moon trip and the Vietnam war. At 34 yrs old I view it as a productivity tax.

 
 
Well, the difference between social security and the typical pyramid scheme is that the government made promises to those who paid in and cannot now renege.  Whether the funds come out of the general funds or social security taxes, the government is going to have to make good on this one.  As for it being a "productivity tax", I don't care whether you're 34 or 64, it is no more of a productivity tax than the general income tax.

[ironglow]

Here's what's going to have to happen in the next 50 years.

1 the pyramid scheme that is social security will have to go away. Its broke and has been for years. I'm sorry if you actually depended on it but I guess you shouldn't have blown the $$ on that moon trip and the Vietnam war. At 34 yrs old I view it as a productivity tax.

2. I hate to say it but we really need to scale back our military spending. Not so much in terms of boots on the ground but do we REALLY need a navy big enough to kick all of the worlds ass togeather three times over? IMO beyond being mobile airstrips naval surface warfare is a thing of the past.

3. No more farm subsidies. All these are is free $$ paid directly to massive corporations.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
  #1..Yep, it should be eased out and a better plan instituted, preferrably a private one.
 
  #2 ..  You've got your wish...Obama is cutting the military..he's already cut the space program and missle defense.
  http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DefenseStrategy/2012/01/05/id/423099
  He will be firing a couple hundred thousand professional soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines...not really keeping in line with Scoot's idea of retaining govt employees..the ones that are REALLY doing something.
 
  #3 .. Farm subsidies can go, so long as the public understands the food chain will possibly suffer from expansions and contractions in availability of certain foodstuffs.
 
   BTW:  Cutting the military budget while starting new military adventure in Central African Republic, doesn't seem to balance.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8828528/Barack-Obama-deploys-US-special-forces-to-central-Africa.html
 
     What are we doing in the Central African Republic?  Why are we there ?

[Gary G]

1 the pyramid scheme that is social security will have to go away. Its broke and has been for years. I'm sorry if you actually depended on it but I guess you shouldn't have blown the $$ on that moon trip and the Vietnam war. At 34 yrs old I view it as a productivity tax.

 
 
Well, the difference between social security and the typical pyramid scheme is that the government made promises to those who paid in and cannot now renege.  Whether the funds come out of the general funds or social security taxes, the government is going to have to make good on this one.  As for it being a "productivity tax", I don't care whether you're 34 or 64, it is no more of a productivity tax than the general income tax.

SS tax is just like income tax, other than it starts on your first dollar earned. It goes to the treasury just like income tax and is not segregated. There is no trust fund and no account with your name on it. As far as government promises, they are no better than Charles Ponzi's promises. It is a productivity tax as it comes from the productive to be given to the unproductive. When the unproductive outnumber the productive the parasite dies as well as the host.

[R.W.Dale]

1 the pyramid scheme that is social security will have to go away. Its broke and has been for years. I'm sorry if you actually depended on it but I guess you shouldn't have blown the $$ on that moon trip and the Vietnam war. At 34 yrs old I view it as a productivity tax.

 
 
Well, the difference between social security and the typical pyramid scheme is that the government made promises to those who paid in and cannot now renege.  Whether the funds come out of the general funds or social security taxes, the government is going to have to make good on this one.  As for it being a "productivity tax", I don't care whether you're 34 or 64, it is no more of a productivity tax than the general income tax.

No the .gov could never back out on a promise to the taxpayers. Why such a thing has never happened.

I got news for ya. Ever since the 60's SS is part of the general fund. There is no "lock box" the social security I pay in goes right back out to support current recipients and anything that's left the .gov spend on vote buying scemes.  Ill never draw it, it won't even be around when get old enough to do so. Its just another tax.

AARP much cuts? Ron Paul can go fly a kite as far as I'm concerned. What is you guys problem with labels?

[R.W.Dale]

You fellas can put labels on folks like me and bury your heads in the sand longing for the days of Bob hope n mayberry rfd to return but the current situation is stark and quite bleak.

We can not go on spending more than we make. Things ate going to have to change. That includes deciding if we want a strong national DEFENSE or if we want to go around doing the worlds police work for free?

This country's infrastructure is falling apart (I work in the industry and see the rot) yet how many carrier task forces does our navy have? Do you have any idea how many roads, bridges and dams can get replaced from the cost of just one?

I'm born n raised military and a stronger supporter for the enlisted man/woman you'll not see. But we wont make this country great again by paying young people minimum wage to send em to a God forsaken ------- to die for no good reason. We will become great again like we did the first time. By building this huge beautiful continent up.

[Cuts Crooked]

 
 
Well, the difference between social security and the typical pyramid scheme is that the government made promises to those who paid in and cannot now renege. 

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! Heh heh!!!

Casull, your heart is in the right place, but I gotta tell ya, the government CAN and HAS reneged on promises! And it wil whenever it feels it is within it's best interest....all predicated on who's at the helm at any given time. There  is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between a pyramid scheme and SS. Best get used to that fact!

[Casull]

Casull, your heart is in the right place, but I gotta tell ya, the government CAN and HAS reneged on promises! And it wil whenever it feels it is within it's best interest

 
 
Cuts Crooked, I certainly won't argue with you that the government has reneged on promises.  BUT, in this case, I don't ever see them reneging on SS.  There are too many people receiving it and too many counting on receiving it.  If you ever want to talk about revolution, just try getting rid of SS.  THAT will cause a revolt.  They may end up cutting it for the younger workers, but anyone that is now 50 or over (probably 40) will get their SS.  The government may screw us many different ways, but I don't see that being one of them.

[Casull]

I got news for ya. Ever since the 60's SS is part of the general fund. There is no "lock box" the social security I pay in goes right back out to support current recipients and anything that's left the .gov spend on vote buying scemes.

 
 
NO .... REALLY?       I don't know who you think you are talking to, but I doubt that would be "news" to anyone that regularly visits this sight.  BTW, it certainly sounds like the problem with labels is coming from you.  You might want to cut back on the caffeine a bit.

[R.W.Dale]

I suggest you start stocking up on the Molotov cocktails then. Because by the end of the decade SS will HAVE TO BE CUT.

Washington wont let their ssi gravy train they've milked and robbed for so long start shorting their pork as the $$ starts flowing the other way. You can count on that.

The impending ss cliff we've been careening towards ever since the baby boom has been brought that much closer by all these years of poor job growth and manufacturing outsourcing. At this point the wide sweeping cuts are inevitable.  The only question is who gets it first and how bad.

Don't bank on it not happening either. By that time they'll be enough folks like me who've always viewed SS as the absolute fantasy it is for it to happen politically. Given the opportunity I would opt out of the system tomorrow as would millions just like me.

[Gary G]

Casull, your heart is in the right place, but I gotta tell ya, the government CAN and HAS reneged on promises! And it wil whenever it feels it is within it's best interest

 
 
Cuts Crooked, I certainly won't argue with you that the government has reneged on promises.  BUT, in this case, I don't ever see them reneging on SS.  There are too many people receiving it and too many counting on receiving it.  If you ever want to talk about revolution, just try getting rid of SS.  THAT will cause a revolt.  They may end up cutting it for the younger workers, but anyone that is now 50 or over (probably 40) will get their SS.  The government may screw us many different ways, but I don't see that being one of them.

I think that you are right and remember these are the ones that show up at the polls. That is also why I think this house of cards is soon to crash and burn. To the politician, the next election is more important than their country.