The wisdom of the EPA

[ironglow]

   This is an example of the collective wisdom of a Democrat congress and their "fair haired child".. EPA.  This brain burp has to rate up there with Nancy's.."you have to pass it, so you can find out what's in it".. IQ meltdown..
   The EPA decided it had to have us burning more garbage (literally)  in our cars, snow machines, chainsaws & cycles etc., so these mental giants insisted upon and got.. a willing "brain frozen" portion of congress, to require cellulosic ethanol (made from garbage) to be put in each gallon of gasoline.
   If the refiners fail to add cellulosic ethanol to their gasoline, they would face heavy fines and perhaps eventual shutdown of their refineries !
  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/21/regulation-requires-oil-refiners-use-millions-gallons-fuel-that-is-nonexistent/
 
   One small problem.. cellulosic ethanol DOES NOT EXIST !

[Rol Page]

This is the same agency of our government that is wasting our tax dollars on aerial surveillance of cattle in the mid west to determine if cattle are pooping in streams causing pollution...!!

[Dixie Dude]

This is the same agency that requires me to go from a 32 page permitting document to a 60+ page document and wait a month for the permit to be approved.  In the late 90's I didn't even have to get a permit on 90% of the work I do.  Now I have to get a permit on 90% of the work that I do.  More paperwork, more delays.  More justification of their existance.  Permits cost money also, depending on the size and scope of the project.  (Pipeline constrution). 
 
Remember the EPA is trying to outlaw lead bullets and shotshells. 

[powderman]

The epa is following obummers directions in helping him destroy us. POWDERMAN. 

[magooch]

The EPA is at the top of the list for agencies that need to be abolished.

[Rol Page]

Abolish the EPA along with the Federal Energy Commission....another do nothing for the good of the US Citizen agency.

[SwampThing762]

The EPA is at the top of the list for agencies that need to be abolished.

Well said, sir.   

ST762

[crustylicious]

The requirement for cellulistic ethanol was part of the 2005 Energy Policy Act (H.R. 6).  At this time both the house and senate were under Republican control.
No doubt, the complete unadulterated idiocy of their collective wisdom should be questioned.
 
Should it be questioned today?
 
 

[ironglow]

The requirement for cellulistic ethanol was part of the 2005 Energy Policy Act (H.R. 6).  At this time both the house and senate were under Republican control.
No doubt, the complete unadulterated idiocy of their collective wisdom should be questioned.
 
Should it be questioned today?

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  The EPA should always be questioned, in fact it, along with many other bureaucratic, self-perpetuating, harmful gangs should perhaps be done away with.
   If they actually did the job they were created for, instead of seizing power not intended for them, they may have been useful, but like other bloated, self-centered government agencies..they have perhaps outlived their usefulness.

[ironglow]

  Here's another Obamanation experiment..  It may vaporize wildlife, down airplanes and blidd motorista or anyone living anywhere in the region..  The obama supporters say the "benefits outweigh the risks".  That may be true, especially if they are not one of those on a crashed plane or blinded by it..
   http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/21/local/la-me-solar-heat-plume-20120621
 
 http://www.inquisitr.com/261930/mojave-solar-power-plant-could-flip-airplanes-blind-drivers-and-vaporize-birds/
 
   BTW: the obama supporters want to spend MORE of our taxed away MONEY into this dizzy project.

[Dixie Dude]

Germany cut their oil imports in half by going diesel.  More diesel derived per barrel of oil, if the refining process is geared to diesel production not gasoline.  27 gallons vs 20 gallons gasoline plus diesel gets an average of 20 mpg better mileage. 
 
We have abundant natural gas that can be used as fuel NOW.  One only has to install compressor stations at each service station that sells gasoline where there is a natural gas main in front of the station.  Vehicles can be made to run natural gas NOW.  GM, Chrysler, and Ford said they are only waiting for the stations to be installed.  Lots cheaper, lots cleaner.  1/3 the carbon dioxide as gasoline.  NOT imported. 
 
Build nuclear power plants to NAVY ship standards.  Make them all modular so replacements units and parts can be easier.  Can also make them thorium reactors which has a shelf decay life of months, not centuries like uranium or plutonium.  Thorium cannot be made into bombs either. 
 
Solar and wind do have their own types of environmental issues, especially killing birds.  Also, we have enough wind energy in the plains states to power the entire US.  HOWEVER, electricity can't be transmitted over long distances due wire resistance and the transmission lines are not in place for wind electrical production.  T Boone Pickens wanted to build a windmill farm in west Texas where all the wind was, but the Texas power companies didn't want to build the transmission lines to carry it to east Texas where all the people were.  Sam all the way up and down the plains. 
 
If the Feds wanted to really help.  First they need to get out of the way.  Second, they need to help incrementally move away from imported oil and help with the power transmission lines, not the wind or solar plants. 
 
The lowest impact solar power plants I have seen are ones with about 10 acres of greenhouses with black asphalt or concret under them directing hot air producted in them to a central tower with a generator in it.  The air is heated by the green houses and goes up the "chimney" tower turning the generator.  These can be built out of conventional materials simply and they work.  Spain built some.  Don't know what the payback is, but it seams simple enough.  Birds aren't hurt, nor planes, only hot air comes out of the chimney. 

[ironglow]

The requirement for cellulistic ethanol was part of the 2005 Energy Policy Act (H.R. 6).  At this time both the house and senate were under Republican control.
No doubt, the complete unadulterated idiocy of their collective wisdom should be questioned.
 
Should it be questioned today?

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   Crusty;
  What is "cellulistic ethanol"... it sure isn't anything referred to elsewhere in this thread.

[magooch]

My question would be, is there anything that government has promoted for energy that has actually turned out well in recent years?  I live in the Pacific Northwest and like many other areas, wind power was encouraged.  A lot of money was spent on building massive wind farms.  Now our power rates have been increased, not to pay for the energy produced at the wind farms, but to pay for the power they don't produce while they sit idle, because of a glut of hydro-power from our dams.  We also have gas turbine generators that sit idle, because of nowhere to sell the power to.   
 
 
 

[Dixie Dude]

Once you create a government bureaucracy, it doesn't matter who is in congress, senate, etc.  They grow, they must justify their existance or get money cut, etc, etc.  EPA was originally created to help monitor environmental concerns and offer environmental solutions to environmental problems.  It has become a monster, creating tons of useless paperwork for private companies to fill out to do work they have been doing for 150 years.  My company was being environmental friendly before the EPA paperwork, fees, and inspections.  We wanted to satisfy our CUSTOMERS.  We cleaned up our projects, we didn't allow run off water and mud.  Didn't need some nanny government bureaucracy telling us what to do.  As a mater of fact, they adoped our standards and applied them nationwide.  Now we have to pay and get a permit to do what we have always have done.  Stupid and costly. 
 
Same with insurance, government gets involved telling insurance companies what they can and can't do causes everyones insurance to go up. 
 
Government bureaucracies have NEVER solved ANY problems only created them.  Laws, insurance companies, and lawsuits would have easily solved problems without government agencies. 
 
As a mater of fact, industrial accidents were going down before OSHA.  After OSHA was created, industrial accidents went up.  Why were they going down?  Lawsuits and insurance companies were making workplaces safer.  Didn't need OSHA. 
 
Has the Energy department got us away from imported oil that it was originally created to do?  Nope.  Only made building and maintaining various types of electrical production more costly. 
 
Private industry will find the solutions to problems if you let them and it is cost effective.  Alternative energy will come on line as the cost to build, operate or produce it gets lower than conventional energy sources. 
 
Kerosene replaced whale oil, because whales were being hunted to extinction.  Gasoline replaced alcohol because it was cheap and easier to get and you didn't have to make it.  Diesel replaced coal for trains and ships because it was cheaper and easier to handle.  Coal replaced wood, because wood wasn't always available for steam engines like in the plains states, deserts, mountains, and on the sea.  Never took the government to interfere and force one way or another. 
 
Alternatives are now available, but will require some effort to change the infrastructure and it has to be cost effective.  Natural gas and diesel will eventually replace gasoline.  Later, in 100 or 200 years, the natural gas distribution system will probably be hydrogen. 

[ironglow]

  Great post DD;
 
  You show a grasp and knowledge of government agencies and the natural/fossil fuels industry which few possess..fine analysis..

[Dixie Dude]

I work in the natural gas pipeline industry.  Since Obama took office regulations have doubled.  They increased drastically when Clinton was in office, but nowhere near what has happened with Obama.  Bush also let stuff get by.  Paperwork is much harder and more complicated now.  Every new technology they want to use, like GPS.  We started out only having to submit a map of the area involved.  Now we have to go out and get GPS readings.  Maps weren't enough, until they started making us add a copy of the USGS maps, in color.  We had to buy color printers and copiers, not just small ones, but ones that do 36" wide paper. 
 
Oh, and OSHA has 11 pages describing what a ladder is.  I had a job shut down because the "young" OSHA inspector said our ditch was 5'1" deep.  Can't be over 5' because of fear of cave ins on someone in the ditch.  Well, he stuck his folding measure in the middle of the ditch and leaned it over to the side.  Well, we were shut down for a week on appeal.  Laid a piece of wood across the ditch and measured to bottom from center of wood, ditch was abotu 4'9" at maximum depth.  Won appeal. 
 
On another one, the EPA shut down a 15 mile pipeline, while some of their "again young" inspectors waded in a creek looking for endangered mussels.  Well, we didn't even cross the creek by digging, we were directional boring 15' below the creekbed.  They had us shut down a month on this appeal.  We had prior approval to directional bore.  HOWEVER, they didn't have "time" to come out and check before we got to the the creek, even after 2 months of construction in progress.  We had 6 trackhoes and 4 welders installing 12" steel pipe and were putting in about 1/2 mile per day and cleaning up behind us.  Meanwhile we had several subdivisions with gas homes under constrution waiting for us to get there.  Oh, they never found the mussels. 

[DDZ]

People wonder why their energy costs are high. They need to look no further than at over grown, power hungry government agencies.
The company I work for once was having an area prepped for a compressor station. Work was stopped because it was determined that there could be endangered rattle snakes in that area. Work did not continue until the area was searched for rattle snakes, and a state employee was put on the job site. Her only job was to watch for rattle snakes and ensure none were disturbed or killed.
The energy company I work for is a large electric and natural gas provider, and the mountain of regs they have to abide by is really unbelievable. Also we do everything in our power to keep from getting any fines by one of the power hungry government bureaucracy's, but they come in with their fine toothed combs, and fine us for the most minute infractions, and the fines are not small either. These are all operating costs which do get passed on to the consumer. As long as the EPA is calling the shots any regulation they set for companies to abide by, will never be good enough. There will always be more stringent regs behind the ones in place now.