209 primers expand and lock the orange primer carriers.

[Whiterabbitttttt]

Hello guys,
 
I just received my huntsman barrel for my SB1 handi and skipped off to the range to sight in. I took only two of my carriers thinking that's all I would need. I took 3 shots and had to go home because I can't get these 209 primers out! It's like the primer housing expands under pressure and locks into the carrier, preventing removal.
 
This is a big, big problem.
 
Is the problem operator error? Known issue? How do I correct this issue?
 
Thanks guys!

[bikerbeans]

what load are you shooting?  BUllet type, weight, sabot, powder type and charge weight, primer type etc.??  IMO the solution to this problem is to replace the factory breech plug with an aftermarket plug.
 
BB

[Whiterabbitttttt]

Hello,
 
The three shots I successfully fired were using 100 grains of American Pioneer pellets, barnes TMZ sabot (man they were hard to get in there!) and home cast 300 grain 45 cal bullets sized to .452 using a LEE mold. Searching has suggested Knight makes EZ load sabots for both FB and BT bullets. I intend to hunt with Barnes 290 grain tipped bullets. And goof around at the range with 300 grain LEE cast bullets. One of the tests I wanted to try was to see if they had the same POI at 50 and 100 yards, but that test sure is on hold!
 
They 3 bullets shot just fine (no tumbling, sight adjustments seemed to track properly), it just seems like the orange plastic carrier coudln't contain the pressure of the 209 primer.
 
 I'd be happier honestly if I could "make the existing config work", so as I can sight in and play at the range while I work on other projects I'd rather commit disposable income to at the moment. My honest intention was not to turn this rifle into a project, or certainly not at this time at least!
 
Are there aftermarket plug options that allow me to use a large rifle or LRM primer? I don't shoot anything that uses small primers and so have no tooling for it. Would rather not tool up for all that if I can avoid it!
 
------------------
 
If I could lathe up a brass punch with aluminum holder and knock them out at the range I'd be happy to dedicate the time to do that, but I'm not convinced the end of the 209 primer isn't mushroomed out, locking it in place. I had to pull both 209's out with pliers in pieces and I'm pretty sure those two primer carriers are permanently destroyed (carrier pocket is a little ragged now)

[bikerbeans]

w-rabbit,
 
You might try a different type of 209 primer, maybe a MZ 209.   I have to admit the only primer carriers I have experience with are the red plastic ones on a Knight inline and I never got a second shot out of one of them, but they didn't cost over a buck a piece either. 
 
Beside a 209 aftermarket plug the only other one I am aware of uses a 25 ACP brass and that is a small pistol primer. 
 
FWIW, the aftermarket plug is about the same cost as 20 of the H&R primer carriers, assuming the prices on gunbroker for these carriers aren't too inflated.
 
The are a couple of guys on post on this forum with a lot more H&R MZ experience than I have and hopefully one or both of them will be able to help you with this issue.
 
BB

[Whiterabbitttttt]

OK, here are a couple pics. Two of these primer carriers are the ones that came back from the range munched, two are brand new fresh never before used first shot fired primer carriers. Popped the 209's while the gun was empty.
 
This is the result:
 
 

[bikerbeans]

Hi,
 
I just copied this off one of the trapshooter forums.  I would buy some 209s specifically designed for inline MZs.
 
BB
 
 
"Take extra care when loading with those old Max Fire primers. They were perhaps the "hottest" primer ever available to the reloading public. I havent seen data for them in a LOT of years---maybe someone on here has a really old manual."

[Busta]

The best way to correct this issue is with a carrierless breech plug. If that is not an option, you need some new 209 primers.
 
The orange primer carriers are NO FUN! Been down that road before, never again.

[muznut 54]

I might have to give the world my H&R large rifle primer conversion with zero blow back soon.

[Whiterabbitttttt]

yes, yes you do. This morning if my wife lets me I am going to turn a hunk of brass to fit the primer pocket and drill it out to hold a 209 primer as a tester.
 
NO way brass could be any worse than plastic!
 
I was thinking if that works I could find someone who has an OEM plug (so I have a spare), and cut another one a thousanth or two oversize and press fit it in for a permanent solution. 209 carrier.
 
But if I could use large rifle primers, that would be sweet!

[YRUpunting?]

Try Triple 7 primers.  They burn a lot cleaner than other 209 primers and are made for muzzleloaders.

[Whiterabbitttttt]

So, as a proof of concept, I turned a carrier out of brass. Only shot one primer through it, but it seemed to work. Primer stayed intact, a piece of aluminum I propped up in front of the muzzle was knocked off the table, and the primer was easily punched out of the carrier under hand power (no hammer)
 
I just picked up some delrin to try again, might be a cheap carrier material if functional.
 
The other option which I am very much considering is re-turn the brass piece slightly bigger and press-fit it inside the OEM plug to become a permanent 209 carrier.

[muznut 54]

Well WR I gave up my long held secret in another thread I started called plastic primer carrier alternative I'm letting you know so you can get some Ideas for yours. I think with yours if you headspace of the rim and cut about .030 off the front side and put a .060 High temp O'ring or rubber washer in the breech plug carrier pocket and make sure your primer is a press fit in your carrier you should get rid of any blow by but for me the easiest was using  WSM or WSSM brass and I like the Idea of a rifle primer because it can handle more pressure and I have a smokeless rig set up.

[muznut 54]

WR you can use a thicker O'ring I just threw .060 out there but you can do the same with a 2 or 3mm thick one if you want you will just have to trim more brass from your carrier nose.

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,
 
   I guess I'm in the minority here (as always).  I have used a Huntsman with the orange plastic inserts for three years, and I have had zero problems with them.  I get 25 to 30 shots per carrier.  I love them.
 
  One thing I have learned about muzzleloaders.  You simply can't explain everything.   If your primers are melting into or jaming the carriers, then throw those primers away and buy a different brand.   Don't waste your time trying to conduct science experiments to try to figure out exactly why those particular primers don't work well in your rifle.  Throw em in the trash and move on.
 
   If you switch to a different brand of primers that are specifically made for inlines, and you still have the jammed carrier problem, then take everything apart and make absolutely sure that every piece, including the breach plug hole, is spotlessly clean, and then switch powders and try again. 
 
   I'll bet that this totally solves your problem.  If not, then you may have simply gotten a bad batch of orange carriers.  (Maybe they were made too soft or too hard, or not cooked long enough in the molding process, or  not properly caste.)
 
 The last thing I would ever do would be to jump to the conclusion that I need to go to a whole new breech plug system.  Jeesh!
 
Mannyrock

[muznut 54]

I threw two sets of the factory primer carriers in the trash not because the primers stuck in them but because they sucked and blew more primer energy and trash out the side of the gun than down the breech plug vent and they also toasted my scope. That's why I came up with my totally sealed WSM or WSSM large rifle primer carriers.   

[james]

I never had those problems with my TC Hawken or TC Encore and thats why I stayed with my traditional until a muzzleloader was made that didn't need those tedious primer holders.

[Whiterabbitttttt]

Hi guys,

I just wanted to add my perspective:

1. I think you guys are right that I don't NEED to seek an alternative to the primer carrier. However, by telling me I can expect a usable life of 30 shots from the carrier after I find a special primer tells me I will be much happier with a turned brass 209 holder (much less the WSM holder). I spent about that (30 rounds) at the range on Sunday and that means I would have used up a consumable that is a couple bucks and difficult to get. The only consumable I used was a single o-ring that I can get locally for pennies. The brass plug, though I agree probably not absolutely required, is the last 209 primer carrier I'll ever need.

2. I'm not the kind of guy that owns a ton of guns. I imagine the TC solutions are far superior, but given that I had a handi shotgun anyways and wanted a CHEAP inline for "introduction to muzzleloader hunting", the price can't be beat! I'm not good enough as a muzzleloader yet to jump straight into flintlock hunting.

3. About the money, the less the better. Cause if I want to do more and more muzzlelaoding, I'd rather spend the resources on a flinter! So the handi should (this is totally opinion!) be the only inline in the (very small) stable, should require the lowest number of consumables, and require the least effort to maintain with minute-of-pork accuracy, as that will be the exclusive use.

So given that orange carriers cost money, hunting for the right primer will cost money, and that my buddy shoots 300 wsm, that I have several inches of .75" brass stock laying around and some fresh HSS and a 9x21 that is all bought and paid for, it seemed quite reasonable to experiment with alternatives

I can't wait to get back out to the range to try my wsm primer carrier. If it works as well as my brass 209 carrier, that's the last time my Huntsman will be at the range for work! Good to go from then on as a pork getter in the muzzleloader-only areas.