SHTF..is it inevitable ?

[ironglow]

   According to some market and economics analysts, we are headed for an economic trainwreck by 2013.  Are you ready ?
  http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Faber-100chance-recession/2012/05/31/id/440837?PROMO_CODE=F144-1

[Dee]

I don't know about the exact date, but we ain't stoppin at the crossins anymore. I think it will really depend on whom gets elected. Obama sooner, the mormon a little later.

[Scibaer]

yes. there is an evolution to  everything, especially a society. all cultures colapse at some point
the US is no different
and the honest truth is its not ay one presidents fault or the result of illegal influx

[kynardsj]

I kinda sorta agree with Dee. The Dems will run this country into the ground sooner, especially if the current administraton gets re-elected. I also think the wheels have been put in motion for our country to take a hard fall even if the Republicans can take office and hold it. I vote and I keep lots of supplies onhand if the wife and I have to hole up for a while. Don't know what else to do at this point besides pray for our country to come thru this mess that it's in.

[ironglow]

   Time to review the statement of Prof Alexander Tytler (Lord Woodhouselee) in the 1700s, regarding the rise and fall of democracies:
 
1) From bondage to Spiritual Faith;

2) From spiritual faith to courage;

3) From courage to freedom;
 
4) From freedom to abundance;

5) From abundance to selfishness;

6) From selfishness to complacency;

7) From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependency;

9) From dependency back to bondage
 
 
    I have thought for some time now, that we were sputtering at #8...  Now, with the Supreme court decision last week, if it stands..will place us at #9..

[magooch]

yes. there is an evolution to  everything, especially a society. all cultures colapse at some point
the US is no different
and the honest truth is its not ay one presidents fault or the result of illegal influx

There are a lot of factors in the decay of our culture, but two of the prime malefactors in the decline of our country certainly have been the illegal invasion and the communists that now control two thirds of our government.  And it is the commie at the top who is by far the main culprit--along with all the dupes who put him in power.

[ironglow]

  I think it started with our nation turning away from God...and it only gets worse the further we turn from Him.
 
   A good video and book watch as much or little as you like..all is interesting;
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSs73IAoPs

[gypsyman]

As a nation, we're on borrowed time. To complicated for it to survive. Foreign oil,food, world economics, way to many people in this country dependent on the govt. I see the world right now as a floor with thousands of domino's set up. It's starting to fall,(Greece,France,Italy) and it'll spread. We are at the end of the chain, but, it will get here. gypsyman

[Dee]

While what magooch says is a contributing factor, go to a mall sometime, and just watch what walks by. Fat kids, pushin buttons on i-phones, or with head phones on, and totally oblivious to what's goin on around them, fat parents, pretty much doin the same thing.
Go to a hospital emergency room. Fat people waiting for a doctor to tell them why they can't breath, or have chest pains.
Quick oil change stations, lawn services, fast food joints, and "the most self indulgent population" in U.S. history. Imagine gettin loud cause your burger is 3 minutes later than you envisioned it should be. Imagine not knowin where your spare tire is located on your own car.
Kids acting like brats in grocery stores, parents handing them video game loaded phones trying to pacify them, instead of bustin their asses.
When I was workin gangs 19 years ago, I would occasionally share a story about an incident with my wife. She would be agast at such behavior. My answer was always the same: Wait until you see THEIR kids. Well folks? How do you like them.

[magooch]

Yeah, but if the parents use any kind of force to discipline their little darlings, someone will call the cops on em.

[Dee]

Collectively magooch, the folks enforcing these laws you speak of, were voted in by the very people I'm talkin about. Were they not?

[mrcooper]

DEE, how true, piss one of those fat darlings off and they will tell the teachers or cops that you touched them and ifn your a white man your life is over with. i seen it happen, our young men no longer have balls, our country is doomed.

[powderman]

Lots of good posts here that are all too true. We started circling the drain in 1963 when we allowed an avowed aetheist and pantywetter judges to basicaly kick God out of America, and liberals were born. POWDERMAN. 

[DDZ]

  I think it started with our nation turning away from God...and it only gets worse the further we turn from Him.
 
   A good video and book watch as much or little as you like..all is interesting;
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSs73IAoPs

We now have a society that says we don't want God, nor do we need Him. Its what has to happen for Communist or Marxist rule to take over. With a communist or Marxist society God can not be the supreme ruler, the centralized state must be. There will be consequences to pay for tossing out God, and we are beginning to see them. The end times are coming, especially for the good ole USA, who once was a God loving, and fearing nation. I believe its the reason we were the greatest nation ever. America just didn't happen by chance.   

[ironglow]

While what magooch says is a contributing factor, go to a mall sometime, and just watch what walks by. Fat kids, pushin buttons on i-phones, or with head phones on, and totally oblivious to what's goin on around them, fat parents, pretty much doin the same thing.
Go to a hospital emergency room. Fat people waiting for a doctor to tell them why they can't breath, or have chest pains.
Quick oil change stations, lawn services, fast food joints, and "the most self indulgent population" in U.S. history. Imagine gettin loud cause your burger is 3 minutes later than you envisioned it should be. Imagine not knowin where your spare tire is located on your own car.
Kids acting like brats in grocery stores, parents handing them video game loaded phones trying to pacify them, instead of bustin their asses.
When I was workin gangs 19 years ago, I would occasionally share a story about an incident with my wife. She would be agast at such behavior. My answer was always the same: Wait until you see THEIR kids. Well folks? How do you like them.

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  Dee;
  Your description here is heartbreaking...but absolute truth..you are "spot on".
 
   Lots of good contributions, many folks are seeing "the handwriting on the wall"...I'm not sure the nation can be saved, in fact I doubt it.
  When the big "O" said he wanted to "fundamentally transform" the United States...I doubt the rank & file Koolaid sipper who voted for him expected it to be this destructive.
    He is not alone, it seems most all major politicians have a poor sense of economics.  When the stuff does hit the fan and if it is severe, my wife ..who is on multiple important medications will not have long.  Still, we are of an age where we cannot expect extensive years ahead for us personally.  We are concerned with those who are younger, handicapped, need dialysis, various treatments and life preserving medications.   
     Oh... and don't forget the fair percentage of people who are addicted to alcohol or another drug, and will be desperate for a "fix", for some weeks after the drug-supply chain is broken.
   It sure looks like the Biblical end-times prophecies are about to manifest themselves...   If you get a chance, save this video and view it when you have time.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSs73IAoPs

[ironglow]

As a nation, we're on borrowed time. To complicated for it to survive. Foreign oil,food, world economics, way to many people in this country dependent on the govt. I see the world right now as a floor with thousands of domino's set up. It's starting to fall,(Greece,France,Italy) and it'll spread. We are at the end of the chain, but, it will get here. gypsyman

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   It is an accepted theory that all great cultures fall due to internal rot.  That is not just criminal economic stupidity, but any kind of immorality practiced widely and/or accepted by the general population.  Sometimes they fall to external forces, but if the great culture had remained great and not declined into immorality, they would probably have survived..

[1911crazy]

Its a matter what happens first either the global melt down of the stock markets will happen of iran touches off WW3.  Either way were on the brink.

[Empty Quiver]

The plan is to max out all of the credit cards before the bankruptcy judge gets involved. We are all being taken to Vegas to bet it all on one more pull on the handle. Even if we win, the house still comes out ahead, sad times.

[Cuts Crooked]

.
 How come that article doesn't talk about the psychopathic narciccists that caused the problem, what they did, and why they're not arrested and indicted...? And forced to pay off the debt they created...?
.,
.
....TM7

That would be because those people are the voters who put politicos in office to provide them with bread and circuses. This would include liberals, so called conservatives, and yes...those who vote for the "lesser of".

Sometimes called moral cowardice.

[mannyrock]

   Discussing the fall of civilizations with references to "God" is irrelevant and simply clouds the issue.
 
   The official religion of Rome was Christianity, and had been for more than 200 years, when the Roman Empire fell.
 
   In point of fact, all great empires fall. All of them.  Clearly an economic formula is at work.
 
    Babylonia
 
    Egypt
 
    Persia
 
    Greece
 
    Rome
 
    The Carolingeon
 
 
 
    The British
 
    The U.S.
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Dee]

Yes, and all had one thing in common. They all turned away from God's moral dictates, and made up their own "Sanitized form of God". "One that didn't weigh so heavy on the mind, and heart", when sin, and immorality, was simply. MORE FUN! We now get a VAGUE form of Christianity now, in most churches. Rome has been preachin a "Vague version" for centuries. A few "hail Mary's, or some "PAID INDULGENCE", will save you, or rescue from most anything. Not true, but it sure makes some feel better. At least on earth.
The Mormons do it too. You can get baptised, and re-sanitized while already in Hell, by PROXIY. Now ain't that handy.
No, your list is long, but UNGODLYNESS was their down fall. Babylonia never was Godly. Nor Egypt, nor Persia, nor Greece, nor really Rome. They were pretenders. Playing with God, by their own rules. Which never works.
For those easily offended, I am not pickin on the Catholics and the Mormons. Their just examples. There are many others, doin it their own way.

[ironglow]

   Discussing the fall of civilizations with references to "God" is irrelevant and simply clouds the issue.
 
   The official religion of Rome was Christianity, and had been for more than 200 years, when the Roman Empire fell.
 
   In point of fact, all great empires fall. All of them.  Clearly an economic formula is at work.
 
    Babylonia .. Fell because they worshipped false gods..even after offered knowledge of the REAL God.
 
    Egypt.. Had a shot too, but they ignored the messages from Joseph to Moses and didn't even "get it" when they lost bothe their army and firstborn sons.
 
    Persia.. See Babylonia (Babylon) and King Belshazzar (Daniel chapter 5)
 
    Greece ..Passed their chance at Corinth and when Paul spoke on Mars hill.
 
   Israel  ...You missed Israel..the glory of King Solomon's mines and temple..yet they went into captivity twice..

 
    Rome  ..Started out OK but became increasingly political, starting early and accelerating after 312 AD
 
   
  The Carolingeon ..The Carolingian..effective as an empire (Holy Roman Empire) but was shot through politically.
 
 
   The British  Were great as an empire when they dropped the political church and sought God by the fundamentals...but lost their empire as they turned from God.
 
    The U.S.  ...Founded by strong believers, grew stronger as their faith grew strronger Became a super power upon the completion of WW2 while faith was still strong.  Then in the 1960s, radicals moved to kick prayer out of school..then to kick God out of school.  On into in the 70s and they decided that half the pre-born boys & girls should be liquidated.   Which of these things likely pleased God ? 
   Then in the 1980s..they started their action against the 10 commandments and crosses in cemeterys and in memorial parks.

  First WTC attack..they didn't listen..then numerous small attacks...still deaf..  Then the destruction of the World Trade Center..and they give God "lip service" for a week... yeah sure..
 
  Understand, God does not have to "punish" America..he has only to remove his protection..his "hedge of thorns" from around us ...and let Satan's forces through.  That's just what happened on 9/11.
 
        He may remove that protection permanently..then will the SHTF for sure !   Surely, " Satan is waitin' "...
 
   

[mannyrock]

Ironglow,
   Yes, I missed Israel.  Don't know how I missed that one.
   I also forgot the Spanish Empire, which was one of the largest on earth and immensely religious, zealotly Catholic.  Now they spent lots of time torturing and killing anybody who didn't believe in God, or who happened to be Christian but Protestant.  In short, people that they didn't think were Godly enough.
   The problem is, who gets to decide who is Godly enough and who is not?  You?  Dee?  Your Ministers?
   Not on my watch.  :-)
   Thomas Jefferson would certainly have flunked your tests, since he only believed in a disinterested Superior Being, who set the world in motion like a giant clock and then just stood back and watched.  Franklin as well (fathering 84 illegitimate children).  Washington, one of the largest slave owners in America, and despite his immense wealth, gave virtually nothing to charities.   Shall I go on?
Best, Mannyrock
P.S.- Dee, writing responses in bold italics does not make your arguments more convincing, but actually makes them look rather desperate.  I prefer Ironglow's orderly method.
 
 

[ironglow]

Ironglow,
   Yes, I missed Israel.  Don't know how I missed that one.
   I also forgot the Spanish Empire, which was one of the largest on earth and immensely religious, zealotly Catholic.  Now they spent lots of time torturing and killing anybody who didn't believe in God, or who happened to be Christian but Protestant.  In short, people that they didn't think were Godly enough.
   The problem is, who gets to decide who is Godly enough and who is not?  You?  Dee?  Your Ministers?
   Not on my watch.  :-)
   Thomas Jefferson would certainly have flunked your tests, since he only believed in a disinterested Superior Being, who set the world in motion like a giant clock and then just stood back and watched.  Franklin as well (fathering 84 illegitimate children).  Washington, one of the largest slave owners in America, and despite his immense wealth, gave virtually nothing to charities.   Shall I go on?
Best, Mannyrock
P.S.- Dee, writing responses in bold italics does not make your arguments more convincing, but actually makes them look rather desperate.  I prefer Ironglow's orderly method.

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  Israel went into slavery 2 times in the OT and came back..Israel went into dispersion 2,000 years ago and was reconstitutes in it's homeland 60 years ago.  Name another nation which has done that !
  Yes, the Spanish Empire was immensely wealthy and zealously Roman Catholic at that time.  It was the heir of the "Holy Roman Empire"  following a "church" which had turned political hundreds of years previously..(IMO) it was an organization led by such as the Medicis & Borgias..(Giovanni Medici..pope Leo X,1513)  (Rodrigo Borgia..  Alexander VI, 1431) produced illegitimate children.. a completely corrupt group leading a corrupt royalty..the candle had passed centuries ago.
  Thomas Jefferson failed my standard long ago..not only for being a Diest, but he divorced God by making expurgations to the Bible and calling the result "The Jefferson Bible" (Rev 22:18,19).  Ben Franklin has had many a false tale told about him..i doubt the 84 illegitimates although he did have some. He seems to have been a late convert to Christ, because he had a poor start.
  Washington did own slaves and was as decent as an owner can be..info says he was seeking a way to free same.
    Manny..you seem to be demanding perfection of human beings..we are a fallen people, often our trail to Christ is halting and unsteady..nevertheless, we recognize who He is..  Don't expect perfection from any man ("man" being a generic term)
          Of course, as unbelievers usually do, you grasp probably the only two founding fathers who could be in any way compromised in their belief in God.  Obviously, Thos Jefferson was a half-way Christian..which is to say he failed the test. There is proof that Franklin was saved from Diesm.. late in life.  You missed Thomas Paine..who could be debated (with hindsight) as to the position of his standing.
 
  Naturally, you didn't mention the vast bulk of them, who were very dedicated to Christ..here are some quotes;
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   The highest glory of the American Revolution was this - that it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams
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"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson
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"The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson
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"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed." - Noah Webster
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(UC) "We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison
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(UC) "He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin
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(UC) "It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
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"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster
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"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
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"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almight God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor." - George Washington
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"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
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"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
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  http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/beliefs.html
 
 
       
 

[twoshooter]

All entities are born/ hatched/ created, they follow the pattern described above, they decline and either cease to exist or are marginalized. I guess you think the Greeks, or Egyptians,or Romans, or British, did NOT think they were "blessed by God", or "were exceptional". I have seen many who have believed in "exceptionalism" usually their own, and it was never at a higher level than just before they went off a cliff, went broke, wife/ husband left, child turned up pregnant/ on drugs/ in jail etc etc. You get ONE bite of the apple. If you are lucky you may get 60 years that you can use with some autonomy and capacity. Get as much out of it as you can, then get the hell off the stage, the next show is coming on. Dealing with delusional people is always sad, and sometimes dangerous. Best to just leave them alone.

[ironglow]

  Sorry guys..I departed from the original thread..
   
      Is a SHTF day for the U.S.A... inevitable ?

[twoshooter]

No.         Long term power realignment, metamorphosis, culture shifts, yes, they cannot be avoided.

[Victor3]

  Sorry guys..I departed from the original thread..
   
      Is a SHTF day for the U.S.A... inevitable ?

 Yes it is. When, how, and how much S hits the F is the question as I see it. Interpret as you will any "signs of the times" you like, but...
 
 Grandpa told Dad that it was inevitable when the Depression hit. Later, Dad enlisted in the Navy after Pearl Harbor, hoping to help prevent it. When I was a boy, Dad told me that it would probably happen before 1975. Later, I was convinced that it would happen before 1985, then again in 2000.
 
 Point is, I don't see much practical use in speculating on dates anymore since the dynamics of any particular situation can turn on a dime. Regardless, are we going to stop it somehow? Prepare for it? What is it going to be, exactly? Natural, nuclear, biological, chemical, economic, social, political, or....? Got a plan for all of those? What about them meteors or UFOs? 
 
 History has shown us that Earth has always been a dangerous place to live. The US will be no exception in the long run, despite how relatively sequestered we've been from the overall death toll in natural disasters, wars, disease, famine and genocide compared to the rest of the planet over the past couple of centuries.

[mannyrock]

Ironglow,
 
  Well, here we have it, in a perfect nutshell.  I am a Christian (Protestant), but since I am not Godly enough for you, you have branded me as an "unbeliever."  (Excuse me, but I think that's God's job.)
 
   This is the problem I mentioned.  Who are you or Dee to judge who is Godlly enough or Christian enough?  And, in a free and democratic society, who said that only people that you judge to be Godly enough should be able to vote or hold office?
 
    One of the "Godliest" of all Protestant societies were the Puritans of Salem, Massachusetts, and using Bible quotations and Ministers, they tried, hung and burned several innocent women for being "witches."    In other words, for not "fitting in."
 
  Perhaps it is best for one to use one's Christianity to judge and improve one's self on a daily basis, and not as a tool for judging, branding or name-calling other people?  History has shown time and time again that it leads to authoritarian or totalitarian political regimes.   
 
  No animosity here, just philosophical debate.
 
  Best,   Mannyrock

[Dee]

Who are you or Dee to judge who is Godlly enough or Christian enough?  And, in a free and democratic society, who said that only people that you judge to be Godly enough should be able to vote or hold office?
No animosity here, just philosophical debate.
 
  Best,   Mannyrock

Mannyrock. I called no one out, nor to task. I deemed know individual Godly or UnGodly. I "did point out non-Biblical practices, and beliefs", but accused NO ONE. I stated my PERSONAL BELIEFS, and required no one to comply, and called no one by name, nor made a gesture toward doing so. I stated my opinion thru personal experience, and study. Philosophical? Hardly. Nothing I said was untrue, and all in regards to religion I mentioned, is quite provable in written church doctrine. Your remarks directed at me were quite uncalled for and "judgemental on your part".
I do not view this as a debate, but a sharing of opinion. I can withdraw. Just say the word.