SHTF..is it inevitable ?

[powderman]

UNGODLYNESS was their down fall. Babylonia never was Godly. Nor Egypt, nor Persia, nor Greece, nor really Rome. They were pretenders. Playing with God, by their own rules. Which never works.

 
DEE. Thats it in a nutshell. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

Ironglow,
 
  Well, here we have it, in a perfect nutshell.  I am a Christian (Protestant), but since I am not Godly enough for you, you have branded me as an "unbeliever."  (Excuse me, but I think that's God's job.)
 
   This is the problem I mentioned.  Who are you or Dee to judge who is Godlly enough or Christian enough?  And, in a free and democratic society, who said that only people that you judge to be Godly enough should be able to vote or hold office?
 
    One of the "Godliest" of all Protestant societies were the Puritans of Salem, Massachusetts, and using Bible quotations and Ministers, they tried, hung and burned several innocent women for being "witches."    In other words, for not "fitting in."
 
  Perhaps it is best for one to use one's Christianity to judge and improve one's self on a daily basis, and not as a tool for judging, branding or name-calling other people?  History has shown time and time again that it leads to authoritarian or totalitarian political regimes.   
 
  No animosity here, just philosophical debate.
 
  Best,   Mannyrock

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   My assumption of your status with God, right or wrong, came from your own discussion.  There are two types of people who swallow the "history revisionists" tripe..those not well versed in our true history or those who arwe hostile to the actual Christian roots of this nation. Take your pick..call it yourself.
  By most accounts the Puritans were not nearly so truly "Godly" as the Seperatists who preceded them at Plymouth.  The Puritans gave a great appearance of being Godly..mostly appearance and legalism.  They did run into a serious falling away with their second generation here in the new world
   Their second generation seemed to forget that simply sitting in a church building and hearing some flowery words..doesn't make them a Christian..   That of course, doesn't make one a Christian...any more than sitting in a Harley shop and reading Harley literature, makes one into a motorcycle.
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    NOW... Back to the thread.. Will the SHTF for us soon ?

[mannyrock]

  Sorry Dee, but you wrote: [/font]
The Mormons do it too. You can get baptised, and re-sanitized while already in Hell, by PROXIY. Now ain't that handy.[/i][/b][/font]
  Sounds pretty judgmental to me.  :-)  Or, were you intending to compliment them?
Best, Mannyrock
 

[Dee]

Taken from mormon doctrine my friend, 2nd Nephi Chapter 31 vs 5 thru 12, and in full context. I said nothing about mannyrock doctrine, and didn't know what it was until you just pointed out. Didn't even know you were mormon. The last sentence in my post was as plain as a church bell, when I included many others. Your feelings are on your sleeve my friend.

[Dixie Dude]

Back to SHTF thread.  China today slashed their bank interest rates.  They are doing worse than they are saying.  Production is down, sales are down.  They are begining to be hurt by the world wide recession. 
 
We have a glut of natural gas.  Why, mainly because we have lost half our industrial capacity since 1998 when China was given most favored nation trading status.  In my business industrial use of natural gas was between 1/3 to 1/2 of our total sales.  The rest was commercial and residential.  We could be using this to run some of our vehicles, fleets especially, cutting our imported oil, keeping money at home where it would be spent at home.  This is so simple, why doesn't the president or congress act on it? 
 
We have an 800 year supply of coal.  Why aren't we making synthetic diesel fuel? 
 
Why aren't we requiring all governmental purchases be of items only manufactured in the USA?
 
Why is our industrial corporate tax the highest in the world?
 
If the worlds economies are falling, we don't have anyone to buy our coal, natural gas, raw materials, food, therefore, more jobs will be cut all up and down the line, like truckers, trains, shippers, warehouses, etc. 
 
Better to get your preps in order, better yet have a homestead to provide food. 

[Dee]

This problem I think is one of management. If the government steps back and allows free markets to exercise their rights, then the government loses management of the whole scheme of things. Imports, and exports are one of the best opportunities to manage, and now even more, they have moved into the private sector of domestic business management, and yes, even take over.
This will not end most likely, until the economy bottoms out completely, as there are a multitude of lobbying groups with personal interests in SUBSIDYS. This most likely will offend some, but one of the biggest is the farmer. He says he's conservative openly, but most times votes, and supports the government hand that gives him far more "farm welfare" than any, Chicago, New York City, or New Orleans slum area could ever get in welfare.
And the farmer is the tip of the iceberg. There are so many hands out for "subsidies" slash "welfare", that it is an endless stream of beggars. Until the coffers are empty, every one's hand is out, and we will pay until there is nothing left to pay with.
The two present presidential candidates should be proof enough, that America has not learned it's lesson.

[mannyrock]

Dee,
 
  No problem.  I'm not a Mormon and I wasn't personally offended by anything you said.  Thanks for your views. (And Dee, nowhere in any of my posts did I ever say that you personally called me anything.  It was Ironglow who called me an unbeliever, not you.  My philosophical question was, who is anyone to judge the issue of who is Godly enough or not? Didn't mean to get personal about it.)
 
  Yes, back to the OP.  Nothing created on this earth by anyone can or will last forever.  This includes any and every government or political or economic system created by man.  Without a single exception, everyone of them has come to an end.
 
   I think the real question here, is whether there will be a collapse of the American Empire in our livetimes.  I hope not.   But, who knows?
 
Best, Mannyrock

[briarpatch]

In all of the failed civilizations mentioned, men have stood and reported what the problem was that a country or government would fail. The answer is "good men sit on their lazy asses and do nothing". You can blame God, politics, Mormons, Jews, Catholics etc. but in the end it is me and you.
We just flop along and let all this take place, behind the curtains for years,  then we start pointing fingers like kids around a broke jar when it slaps us in the face.
If every man that is setting and moaning would get involved with the up coming election we could change this mess overnight. Throw down you hunting and beer drinking and hit the streets........
Yea.. figure SHTF in somewhere in your future.

[Dee]

The two present presidential candidates should be proof enough, that America has not learned it's lesson.

briarpatch, the last sentence in my last post should say the we agree does it not?

[briarpatch]

If raw milk worked like politics we would never have butter. The cream would never rise to the top.

[magooch]

Is it inevitable for the USA to suffer economic disaster?  It certainly seems that will be the case if some fiscal sanity isn't returned to the government.  As far as some kind of physical destruction happening; that is always a possibility--even in the best of times. 
 
The United States of America is not an empire.  The Soviet Union was a sort of empire and it fell apart.  The parts are still there.  The same goes for all of the other empires that have existed.  Yes, our country has problems, but the only thing that can tear us to pieces is the continued illegal invasion.  And don't kid yourselves, that is exactly the intension of at least some of the illegals.  Stop immigration, stop multi-culturalism, stop socialism, stop Obama.

[Dee]

Haven't checked into the comparison to Iceland, but the USA is most certainly an EMPIRE. It has been since WWII, and has been involved in countless "nation building" & "nation occupying" endeavors since WWII. Anyone denying these FACTS, are in fact, "in denial".
We don't like a certain country's leader? We take him out, or provide means and support to take him out. We like a leader? We support him monetarily, and militarily to keep him in. We get tired of him? We abandon him. Egypt, Israel, Panama, Iraq. The list is endless.
We are now at the present, "occupying" two nations, (Iraq & Afghanistan) that want nothing to do with use, and we are controlling them with the use of MILITARY ARMAMENT. USA an EMPIRE? Yes indeed! And one that is slipping into obscurity because of it's Godless ways.

[Dixie Dude]

I suggest getting as much off the grid as possible.  Homestead if possible.  We are planning on downsizing to do so.  Moving to the country.  I believe it is possible today with the modern items one can buy.  LED lighting is super electrial efficient, even 10 times better than florescent.  One can buy solar power packages, enough to power a refrigerator or freezer.  One can get by without air conditioning with proper home construction, but you do need heat.  Heat is easier to produce for cooking, keeping warm, etc.  Firewood, home built solar water heating panels for heating and water heating.  Raising your own food and small animals.  Earth sheltered homes OR 2x6 wall stud, foam insulated, small window, energy efficient home construction.  Get out of debt.  Store up preps. 
 
If more Americans were prepers, you wouldn't have had a New Orleans or now, East Coast problems.  They would have been far less need for government interference. 
 
Most Americans have lost the Independent Individualism spirit.  Second, most have lost the community spirit of coming together to help those in need, like the Amish today.  Some church groups do help each other if they are members of a church, but not like it should be.
 
Prepare for the inevitable, hope it doesn't come in our lifetime. 

[mannyrock]

Dee,
 
  What you say about the American Empire is right on point.  What is interesting is how the U.S. changed its policies (into nationbuilding) after WWII
 
   At the end of the Spanish American Wa in 1898,, with the utter destruction of the Spanish War Fleets by our navies in the Phillipines and Cuba, America found itself accidentally and immediately an Empire.  It suddently OWNED all of the Phillipines and Cuba, and the millions and millions of Hispanic Catholic folks who lived there.  They becames U.S. possessions, yanked from Spain.
 
   But instead of trying to engage in nation building, America was smart enough to  eventually say, "these folks are so culturally different from us, and so hostile to us, that they are more of a liability than an asset."  So, remarkably, we simply granted them their Independence.  In other words, cut them loose.  Yes, we created and kept a large U.S. Naval Base in both places, but we gave up land masses and populations that were enormous,  because we knew we should.  (We kept Puerto Rico, because they seemed far friendlier.)
 
   After WWII, however, our policies changed.  We decided that we had to Democrotize and Americanize every corner of the world (to fight Communism), no matter how much it costs, and no matter how many men we got killed.   Vietnam was the ultimate lesson.   But here we are, back at it today.  Unbelievable.
 
Mannyrock
 

[Dixie Dude]

Problem is with our system.  If it is not respected by either the electors or the elected, it starts getting out of wack.  Right now too many electors are ignorant of history, and the elected want more centralised power. 
 
Problems are Catholics are more socialist in nature in an effort to help the poor etc, especially Hispanic Catholics.  Blacks are more socialist in nature because they had to band together in slavery, sharecropping, and to achieve equal status.  Liberal elitists (acedemia types) are more socialist in nature because they have always worked for an institution, most which are government supported, and they have never worked a real job in the real world.  These groups are adding up to feed the Democrats voters.  We are less educated today than 100 years ago.  Only about 70% of the people in America are functionally literate.  Which is able to balance a checkbook, read and understand a newspaper or news article.  100 years ago it was 80%. 

[ironglow]

   TRhe U.S. is not an empire in the classic sense, nor is it a democracy as I pointed out wasthe case of the conclusions drawn by Alexander Tytler.  We are close enough to have the same problems, however.
   Dixie Dude spoke about getting off the grid where possible..a good move with what the future looks like.  So many things such as national debt, medical care, a mad regime in Iran who are developing nuclear weapons..the use of which they hope to  use in order to introduce their "12th Madhi"..   Add to this a large portion of the population who graduate in ignorance. 
     We have slipped education wise.  We continually hear about how "smart" students are these days.  Dixie Dude said too many people voting in elections are not very educated...and don't have a clue.  I agree completely..
   Here is a set of questions from 8th grade finals test in 1905.  How many today would make it to 9th grade ?  How many liberal arts college grads would pass ?   Here it is;
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  Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
 

EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS
OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS
April 13, 1895
J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent.

 Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.) Reading and Penmanship. - The Examination will be oral, and the Penmanship of Applicants will be graded from the manuscripts.   

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GRAMMAR
(Time, one hour)

1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case. Illustrate each case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10 Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

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ARITHMETIC
(Time, 1 ¼ hour)

1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weights 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts. Per bu., deducting 1050 lbs for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 per cent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per m?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 per cent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

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U.S. HISTORY
(Time, 45 minutes)

1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whtney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865.

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ORTHOGRAPHY
(Time, one hour)

1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthogaphy, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret “u”.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final “e”. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

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GEOGRAPHY
(Time, one hour)

1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall, and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.

 1. Where are the saliva, gastric juice, and bile secreted? What is the use of each in digestion?
2. How does nutrition reach the circulation?
3. What is the function of the liver? Of the kidneys?
4. How would you stop the flow of blood from an artery in the case of laceration?
5. Give some general directions that you think would be beneficial to preserve the human body in a state of health.

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RULES FOR TEACHERS
1872

1. Teachers each day will fill lamps, clean chimneys.
2. Each teacher will bring a bucket of water and a scuttle of coal for the day’s session.
3. Make your pens carefully. You may whittle nibs to the individual taste of the pupils.
4. Men teachers may take one evening each week for courting purposes, or two evenings a week if they go to church regularly.
5. After ten hours in school, the teachers may spend the remaining time reading the Bible or other good books.
6. Women teachers who marry or engage in unseemly conduct will be dismissed.
7. Every teacher should lay aside from each pay a goodly sum of his earnings for his benefit during his declining years so that he will not become a burden on society.
8. Any teacher who smokes, uses liquor in any form, frequents pool or public halls, or gets shaved in a barber shop will give good reason to suspect his worth, intention, integrity and honesty.
9. The teacher who performs his labor faithfully and without fault for five years will be given an increase of twenty-five cents per week in his pay, providing the Board of Education approves

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SOURCE: Kansas GENWEB The document was transcribed from the original document in the collection of the Smoky Valley Genealogy Society, Salina, Kansas. This test is the original eighth-grade final exam for 1895 from Salina, KS. An interesting note is the fact that the county students taking this test were allowed to take the test in 7th grade, and if they did not pass the test at that time, they were allowed to re-take it again in the 8th grade. 
 
 

[Dixie Dude]

Before WWII, the average person had an 8th grade education.  That is or was the equal to a high school degree today.  High school before WWII was equal to a general college degree today.   

[powderman]

Before WWII, the average person had an 8th grade education.  That is or was the equal to a high school degree today.  High school before WWII was equal to a general college degree today.

 
DIXIE DUDE. YEP, the dumbing down of America has been getting worse every year. Kids refuse to study or learn and can't pass?? No big deal, lower the grade requirements. They still won't know anything but it looks good on paper. POWDERMAN. 

[Empty Quiver]

Before WWII, the average person had an 8th grade education.  That is or was the equal to a high school degree today.  High school before WWII was equal to a general college degree today.

 
DIXIE DUDE. YEP, the dumbing down of America has been getting worse every year. Kids refuse to study or learn and can't pass?? No big deal, lower the grade requirements. They still won't know anything but it looks good on paper. POWDERMAN. 

I will give these kids some credit for knowledge. They do have a good handle on modern life, such as electronics, computer skills, things that frankly I struggle with. So many things about a newer car I just can't work with, good thing they are pretty reliable these days. They aren't exactly stupid, but have useless skills should the shtf.
 
When the SHTF those skills may not do them a bit of good though. That is what our generation is seeing ( hell, I'm a whippersnapper ). Daily survival skills, like cooking simple meals from scratch, repairing a flat tire, changing the thermocouple on the water heater. Very simple skills requiring few tools, are not being handed down by dads, dads who by and large, could be stud bulls in a dairy herd by the way.