Author Topic: looking at bronze cannon to buy ,and info on one I found and thinking to buy (Read 5603 times)

one thumb short · « **on:** July 07, 2012, 03:23:02 PM »

Hi New to forum.I have found a bronze cannon ,and thinking about buying.Looking for any info before I step up and buy it.It has 17inch steel spoke wheels on field carrage,24 inch barrel,one inch bore,muzzle loader,has turned that bronze brown.I has acd cast into the barrel,along with the date1899 and and eagle .It is on consignment at a gun shop I went into and nobody seems to know much about it.Looks nice to me.was told it had been fired.I think it is priced low for what Iam seeing ,was asking 2grand has been sitting a long time now reduced.One Thumb Short Any help identifying it ,who might have made it.how old it is?no pictures I did not want to ask them till I got more info.

GGaskill · « **Reply #1 on:** July 07, 2012, 05:53:31 PM »

Your description is so sparse that you are unlikely to get anything more than a "generic salute cannon of the 19th century" as an answer without pictures, and probably more data.

Look for manufacturer's ID plate or something like that.

I personally wouldn't spend anywhere near that kind of money without a lot more info. But I am not really into antiques.

one thumb short · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2012, 05:33:21 AM »

Hi Thanks for the reply.I think this is either a signal cannon or a scaled down version of an antique cannon,made 50's 60's.I am looking for just a noise maker but if it turns out to be able to fire a ball I might try it if I get it.It looks well made no liner,so maybe just made for signaling.I will go back to store and try to take pictures on my cell and get better measurements.I also want to check touch hole to see if this is just for show and not shooting ,even though they said it had been shot.I did not see and resido in the bore which good be good that made they cleaned it.Wish I could talk to owner but they won't let me because of consignment.If I get it should I polish the Barrel or just leave it that brown patina?I have a small bronze cannon my Dad had sitting on the shelf and is had the same finish as this one .It was from the 60's and I polished it and itcame out shiny like new. I tried to make it work ,the reason I want to check the touch hole is to see if it goes to the bore.This one had a touch hole but to small for the fuse.I kind of check it's location and then opened it up 1/8 inch as I was drilling I keep drilling and did not run into the bore .So it's back on the shelf looking pretty polished.Thanks for the response.I wil let you know what I find out. One Thumb Short

keith44 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2012, 06:54:53 AM »

Hi one thumb short, Welcome to the forum.

Before you go spending that much money some things to think about. We recommend that the wall thickness be at least as thick as the bore is across for a shooting cannon (if it is bored straight and does not have a reduced powder chamber like a mortar does).

It is used and cast and bronze or aged brass, you do not know how many times it has been fired, nor if it was abused.

Here is a new cannon that would be a better starting point:
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_106_665&products_id=1673

For alot less money, and a known condition. Also the sponsors and supporters of this board make fine quality pieces and are much easier to deal with. All of the ones I have dealt with stand behind their products 100%.

So I really recommend passing the unknown on the shelf unless you just want it for a decorator piece. This is just my opinion, and I am certain others will offer theirs as well.

Keith

Cannoneer · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2012, 08:16:15 AM »

Welcome aboard, one thumb short! As has already been said, in many cases a picture is worth a thousand words, it's usually extremely difficult to make a judgement without seeing a photo. When you take measurements, be sure to get the diameter of the breech (rear end of the barrel).

Talking about pics speaking volumes: Did one thumb go bye-bye, is one thumb smaller than the other, or are both these guesses way off base?

one thumb short · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2012, 09:59:45 AM »

Cannoner I used to belong and shoot ssas ,It got to expensive for me and they wanted you to buy all the clothes etc.to play the part and trick out your guns to compete to their rules.It started out as box stock original guns and blue jeans and collarless shirt.In joining they needing an alias ,mine was one thumb short.I am a retired 69 yr old machinist still having fun like a kid.You were right my left thumb is short just above the knukle is gone .Happened doing wood work on a shop smith,sure miss it but it was gone fast and I have got used to it,happened in 1995.Nice talking to you.One thumb short

Cannoneer · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2012, 10:18:28 AM »

Thanks for the answer, one thumb short. My grandfather lost his little finger when he worked at a meat packing plant as a teen, and when I was a kid he used to tell me that he missed it because without it he tended to lean to one side.

one thumb short · « **Reply #7 on:** July 08, 2012, 10:23:04 AM »

Keith 44 Thanks for the info I think I can get this cannon for about $800,listed for $999 plus tax obo .It looks to be in good shape and taken care of plus not paying shipping from Tenn.The dia ,I think is about 3inches and bore is 1 inch,breech end is 5 or 6 inches ,24 inches barrel.It is slow taper to pass the trunnions then slowtaper to muzzle.I am a retired machinist 69 yr young,just looking at the condition it looks like it has not been shot or very much and spent much time indoors as a display piece.Wife might have told to get rid of it,it has been in the shop for over a year.They said drop price $999. obo plus tax
Went to another shop they had two for sale at $1900 ea that one of the salespeople had made ,good job .Signal cannons but he shoots golf balls from one not sure about other.He seems to be very knowlege about cannons and if I buy or maybe before I buy it he wanted to take a look at it.He also lives overin my area and knew where to go shoot them he is a member of the same gun club I am a member.
Thanks for giving me the info and I will try to take pics and look for any data plate or info.Is there any locations on the cannon that might have the info stamped or a tag that has that info on it.I will look harder and try to let them let me talk to the owner to find out more info.
One thumb short

one thumb short · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2012, 10:33:01 AM »

Keith 44 I did like the workmanship on the two cannons for sale but looked to new for me and they were a little smaller than the one I am looking at.I also live in the Republic of Kalifornia with their friendly gun laws,HA ha ha.I also like the 1899 cast in the barrel as I understand makes it a non gun because it was made or a replica of a cannon before 1899 ,remember Pawn Stars he will not but anything made after 1899 so he does not get in trouble with ATF and me with ca DOJ,Thanks for your interest in helping me out,I hope to have pictures to post for you to look at them.One thumb short

Cannoneer · « **Reply #9 on:** July 08, 2012, 11:18:19 AM »

Quote from: one thumb short on July 08, 2012, 10:33:01 AM

I also like the 1899 cast in the barrel as I understand makes it a non gun because it was made or a replica of a cannon before 1899 ,remember Pawn Stars he will not but anything made after 1899 so he does not get in trouble with ATF and me with ca DOJ,

One thumb short,
That 1899 cast on the barrel isn't going to mean all that much to the "ATF."

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** July 08, 2012, 11:56:21 AM »

It is made before 1899 that is an antique. Made in 1899 would not be an antique.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 08, 2012, 01:56:44 PM »

Pawn stars is using the pre 1898 rule on buying firearms so he doesn't have to deal with having an FFL and the required record keeping and other paper work that goes with it.....
As far as cannons go it doesn't matter when it was made if it is a muzzel loader a breech loader over 50 caliber may be another matter with the ATF......
See if you can get some photo's of what you want to buy we can better help you that way...... Also anyone who can cast a cannon can put what ever date they want on it so a date does not mean much....

keith44 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2012, 03:11:13 PM »

one thumb short, if the dimensions you list are accurate, and the bore is not bulged nor pitted you may have a shooter. If you can get pictures of the bore (down the tube) and trunion attachment close ups that will help. Also it should have a vent (flash hole) where a fuse or friction primer would go. A picture of this area with a tape measure laid along side from the breech end. A measurement of the depth of the bore and another of the overall length of the bore. This will determine how much material is at the breech end. Look at how the bore ends, you machinist and tool and die types have a better eye than I do, but look at how it was done, and think about repeated blasts of 20,000 psi or more.

BoomLover · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2012, 07:10:12 PM »

One thumb Short, if you do decide to buy this cannon, before you polish it all up, think about this...if it is a real nice cannon, and if it is pretty old with a lot of patina, LEAVE IT ALONE! That patina makes it worth much more than some shiny new looking old cannon! Lie the others are saying, the date cast into it does not make it that old. I have one with the date of 1651 cast into it, but it is a copy, not an original, and it is a display only piece, not even drilled thru...and I wouldn't think of polishing it and ruining it. Just my humble opinion! ( PS...get and post pics!) These guys on this forum are the best and they can help you make the right decision! BoomLover

one thumb short · « **Reply #14 on:** July 09, 2012, 08:18:58 AM »

Thanks for all the respones,Keith 44 Being with my machinist background I have already loose measured the deepth of the bore,I am not a typest and it takes me a long time to do responses so I tend to put as much info as i can remember and and type while try to stay focused on what I am writing.I took a tape and measured about 23 inches for the bore and 25 inches to the end of the end of the cannon when I first looked at it .I did not check the vent whole,I will tommorow to see if it reaches the bore and check the bore with a flash light .I will let you guys know what I find out.
Let me give you a little more back ground on my self.Our family has had some one fighting for this country since the Revolution war and have been and been a history buff all my life.I am trying to join SAR and civil war both confederate and union as I had relatives on both sides .We had a well known gunsmith with the same last name who helped make weapons for both sides in the civil war.My dad had and I still have a collection of old Colts and Winchesters so I know about the valvue of not cleaning up collectable guns.The reason I was thinking about it on this cannon bronze sure looks good polished and it is a repo also,I am sure it is not original,I f I get it I will not polish it.There is one at a military hostipal in the area original but the have it polished and it looks SO good in the court yard ,they also have a cannon that was brought up from a wreck and painted it with all the rust pits and it looks good .One thumb short

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** July 09, 2012, 08:54:51 AM »

Old bronze cannons that have been polished look vandalized because polishing old cannons damages them. Shiny cannons are either brand new or the product of Drill Instructors who are trying to build character while destroying valuable antiques or generating mindless, pointless object lessons. Polishing destroy lines and markings on cannons.

I have had this thing about polishing metal just to see it shine ever since Drill Instructor Sgt. Callahan made me polish the copper ground wire and ground post coming out of an electrical panel box in the Quonset hut at MCRD San Diego in 1966. I know there was a lesson in the activity, but it never got through to me.

GGaskill · « **Reply #16 on:** July 09, 2012, 12:04:12 PM »

While I have no idea of Sgt Callahan's immediate motivation, we had an IG inspection while I was in basic training and all of the Brasso'ing of brass items in the building (like the handwheels on the firehose valves) was done because the sergeants of the IG's entourage were looking for crapp like that.

There were lots of sergeants (including sergeants major) who thought the mission of the Army was shining everything in sight instead of maximizing the training of the men in their occupational specialties.

one thumb short · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2012, 05:27:17 PM »

Hi I went by the shop and measured barrel ,looked at bore ,stuck pick in vent hole,looked all over the cannon no markings just a proof mark on end of barrel,looks like crossed flags in circle.Gave salemann list of questions to ask owner ,he said he asked these questions when he brought it in.He told him he bought it at a flea market a few years ago and did not have much info on it.I still like it but sales man because of liability he cannot sell it other than a display cannon .I still think I ca use it as a noise maker and maybe shoot it.the sales man said that to but could not sell it as a functioning cannon just display.I put a bid on it and they tried to phone the owner and could not get a hold of him today.I took pictures but need to know how to post pictures.I have done similar but not very good at it ,could send e mail photos to ones who have been responding to me.Thanks One thumb short

one thumb short · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2012, 08:29:10 AM »

HI i got tired of waiting for two days to see if the owner of the cannonaccepted my offer.I drove my truck in case he accepted my offer,I just felt it.I stopped by another shop that has two cannons for sale and showed him the pictures to get his option of the cannon I put the offer on.He said that sounded about right.So away I went to the shop that had it for sale,walked inan asked the salesman if he had heard anything.Not yet ,it had been two days,I asked him if he cold go phone the owner because he was not responding to the earlier ones.He went into the office and a little later he came out and said I was the owner of a cannon,he accepted my offer.Now I have it home I am going to get afriend to help me post pictures .Maybe you can helpme find out what I bought,it still needs clean up and a little fixing.Any help I can get will be most helpful as I am sort of new to cannons.I stopped back by the other shop and let the guy take a look and tell me what he thought.He said I gota good deal and offered some fixes to the problems with it.The elevator need fixing ,also barrel is not balanced and he said maybe put the tube on a navy carriage or put a stop block in front as a stop for the barrel.He asked me if I was just going to make noise or shoot balls .I told him I am no sure tell I look real good at the bore we both think it looks like it has never been shot or not very much.I will try to post pictures after I get with my friend.Thanks for all the imput so far has been very good.One thumb short

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2012, 02:04:18 PM »

Congratulations! You've already piqued my curiosity, now just waiting for the photos.

one thumb short · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2012, 04:04:30 PM »

Cannoner I just talked to my friend and she is coming over sunday to help me take pictures and help post i HOPE she is able to.I have cell phone pictures I can e-mail that I know howto do.Let me know I would rather send good pics to forum but the others are alright .One thumb short

keith44 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2012, 05:50:02 PM »

CONGRATULATIONS!!

enjoy the journey

Cannoneer · « **Reply #22 on:** July 15, 2012, 11:36:59 PM »

Quote from: forward on July 15, 2012, 02:44:55 PM

<a href="http://s1073.photobucket.com/albums/w386/frattibrat/Cannon/?action=view&current=file-3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w386/frattibrat/Cannon/file-3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">[/url]

One thumb short,
I like it, and think you got a fair deal for that sized barrel, but even though the Span-Am War began and ended in 1898, I believe your barrel (marked 1899) was probably cast to commemorate the U.S. victory in that war. You already know that the year marked on your barrel doesn't necessarily mean that's when it was made, so although manufacture on that date is a possibility, I personally have the feeling that it was cast years later. While I've seen other brass barrels with similar raised eagle and date markings, I have never seen another of this size, so it may be a one-off produced by a "backyard caster." The carriage is definitely a hodgepodge, but it has a certain charm. I can see what you mean about the barrel being muzzle heavy, but you can remedy that situation with an elevation screw. You did well!

keith44 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2012, 04:35:10 AM »

YUP looks like ya got a good deal

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:54:30 AM »

The gun appears to be an unfinished casting with a preponderance issue. I do no think you got a good deal.

The trunnions were placed to far back and that causes the gun preponderance issue.

I believe you said you have machining experience. You may be able to cut the swell off and turn a diameter and make the swell a sleeve and slide it on the diameter, to take care the preponderance.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2012, 06:43:30 AM »

Quote from: Double D on July 16, 2012, 05:54:30 AM

The gun appears to be an unfinished casting with a preponderance issue. I do no think you got a good deal.

The trunnions were placed to far back and that causes the gun preponderance issue.

I believe you said you have machining experience. You may be able to cut the swell off and turn a diameter and make the swell a sleeve and slide it on the diameter, to take care the preponderance.

Douglas,
Why in the world would you cut (vandalize) the barrel?

Double D · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:27:27 AM »

Quote from: Cannoneer on July 16, 2012, 06:43:30 AM

Quote from: Double D on July 16, 2012, 05:54:30 AM
The gun appears to be an unfinished casting with a preponderance issue. I do no think you got a good deal.

The trunnions were placed to far back and that causes the gun preponderance issue.

I believe you said you have machining experience. You may be able to cut the swell off and turn a diameter and make the swell a sleeve and slide it on the diameter, to take care the preponderance.

Douglas,
Why in the world would you cut (vandalize) the barrel?

If this was a historic and valuable piece, indeed it would be vandalism.

But this is an unfinished, poorly laid out modern casting of red bronze. Part of the finishing process would be to fix or adjust small areas that are a problem. The perponderance is an area that needs adjustment and is easily done with the results a very lovely gun.

The other thing I would do is reduce the width of the wheel rims perhaps by as much as half.

This is a very neat looking gun and can be made to shoot and look good also!!!

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:36:49 AM »

Quote from: Double D on July 16, 2012, 07:27:27 AM

If this was a historic and valuable piece, indeed it would be vandalism.

But this is an unfinished, poorly laid out modern casting of red bronze. Part of the finishing process would be to fix or adjust small areas that are a problem. The perponderance is an area that needs adjustment and is easily done with the results a very lovely gun.

The other thing I would do is reduce the width of the wheel rims perhaps by as much as half.

In my opinion "one thumb short" could flip this piece on an auction, and more than double his investment right now.
I don't think this barrel was manufactured by a company, but by an individual, and that would make it what the appraisers on the "Antiques Roadshow" call folk art. The carriage is without question made up of found pieces put together in someone's workshop. In my view the barrel itself could have been cast anywhere from the early 1900's to the 50's, but regardless of when it was made, the craftsman that fashioned it should be respected, and for that reason alone (not even taking into consideration drastically reducing its worth) I would never alter it to any great degree.
The preponderance issue can be easily corrected with an elevation screw that has a ring fitted around the neck of the cascabel.

one thumb short · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:49:26 AM »

Cannoner You sure are smart ,I am trying to find out how to post my pics and was going to phone my lady friend to see how she was doing on it.I deceided to go look at my post and amazing I am looking at my pics.Good job ,I need you to look and post the close up picture of the muzzzle,it has a proof mark or maker stamp of crossed keys in a circle,and that might tell me if ,or what country it might have been made in.Thats why I think it was not done by a person but a company.I LOVE MY CANNON,I think I can fix all the problems,the trunnion are going to stay where they are.There are a lot of fixes I can do,the friend at the other shop said it lookslike it was a naval tube and change the carriage.I still think I can fix this one.He said the naval did not have a elevator.My neighbor likes it to said just fix what needs fixing and lets go shoot it and see what it does before you go into a restoration mode.power coating etc.We both like the age look that it has that is why I bought it over other a new or new looking ones,IT HAS CHARACTER that you can not build into it or buy.DID I say I LOVE MY CANNON.I still hope people on the site will fill like helping me with matters that I am sure will come up it fixing it up and firing it and finding parts I might be looking for to work on the cannon.I like the looks of the steel wheels .They will not rot, warp, break, hopefully not get stuck.I am looking to find out who made them or what they came off of or any info what time period.The two shops that have seen it think it was made as said in one of the replys between 1900-1950,s.THANKSFOR THE RESPONSES AND PLEASE KEEP THEM COMING AS I AM NEW TO CANNON AND CAN ALWAYS LEARN MORE ABOUT THEM AS I AM A NOVICE. ONE THUMB SHORT

Cannoneer · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2012, 11:05:04 AM »

Quote from: one thumb short on July 16, 2012, 09:49:26 AM

Cannoner You sure are smart ,

If my wife ever saw this, she'd laugh herself silly!

Here's the muzzle face showing the crossed keys.

Pretty cannoneer.

"I need you to look and post the close up picture of the muzzzle,it has a proof mark or maker stamp of crossed keys in a circle,and that might tell me if ,or what country it might have been made in.Thats why I think it was not done by a person but a company."

It's possible that your barrel was manufactured by a company, but the stamped symbol on the muzzle face doesn't really prove that. It would be another story if you could match that symbol with a company.

"There are a lot of fixes I can do,the friend at the other shop said it lookslike it was a naval tube and change the carriage.I still think I can fix this one.He said the naval did not have a elevator."

If your barrel had another ring in front of the one ring seen in front of the trunnions, it might mean that it was intended to represent a naval gun, but as it is I don't see anything that suggests that it's meant to be a naval cannon.