Author Topic: looking at bronze cannon to buy ,and info on one I found and thinking to buy (Read 5617 times)

one thumb short · « **Reply #30 on:** July 16, 2012, 11:20:53 AM »

Cannoner Thanks for posting picture .I think it had to be a company made tube because of the proof mark.Any body have any ideas ,origin of proof mark or makers mark?I would like to know what red bronze is?I have heard of Naval bronze ,bushing bronze ,and numbers that calls out how much copper and zinc is in each.Never heard of red bronze,but as I said before I am a novice with muzzle loading cannon and some of the terminology.Would like any info on either of these proof or makers mark,red bronze.one thumb short

Cannoneer · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2012, 12:01:21 PM »

Yes, I'm curious about that myself, I've heard of red brass before (plumbing pipe), but never red bronze.

Double D · « **Reply #32 on:** July 16, 2012, 12:52:08 PM »

I know that mark!!! I just don't know where.

Do you want to see something interesting google crossed key and look at images. You will find a very similar image that looks like this crossed keys. Click on the image and you find that it is form an old girl scout manual and is a line drawing for a the housekeeping merit badge. I doubt this is it. Scroll down the page of images and there is a cannon. Click on that and you will be take to a blog titled Student of History. You will have to do find and look for Cross Keys...in the blog there is a duscussion about preservation efforts at Shiloh. The organization that is doing the preservation is also doing work at Cross Keys Va. Battle field.

1899 means something and suspect this gun was built in 1999 to commemorate an event in 1899. Cannonmn would know.

This cannon does not have the wear or patination of 60 to 110 year old cannon. It has the patination and wear of a cannon made with in the past few years. That is good, not bad.

Red bronze, red brass or gunmetal bronze all the same thing. Look it up.

The preponderance issue is a big one and will need to be addressed. It could be fix by building a screw elevator with a yoke the goes around the neck. The yoke would have to be a pivoting affair.

Off course you could shorten the barrel as I previously suggested, but I understand the reluctance to do that.

Dealing with preponderance is an annoyance. The SAMCC club gun had a serious problem with it and it made shooting difficult.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #33 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:24:23 PM »

This fellow (Stephen Jackson) seems to have done his homework (better him than me).
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Esoteric-Symbology-3874/2009/6/Crossed-Keys.htm

The only connection mentioned here that I knew about was the Catholic and St. Peter symbolism, and I doubt very highly that this gun was cast at the secret foundry located underground in Vatican City.

Quote from: Double D on July 16, 2012, 12:52:08 PM

I know that mark!!! I just don't know where.

Do you want to see something interesting google crossed key and look at images. You will find a very similar image that looks like this crossed keys. Click on the image and you find that it is form an old girl scout manual and is a line drawing for a the housekeeping merit badge. I doubt this is it. Scroll down the page of images and there is a cannon. Click on that and you will be take to a blog titled Student of History. You will have to do find and look for Cross Keys...in the blog there is a duscussion about preservation efforts at Shiloh. The organization that is doing the preservation is also doing work at Cross Keys Va. Battle field.

1899 means something and suspect this gun was built in 1999 to commemorate an event in 1899. Cannonmn would know.

This cannon does not have the wear or patination of 60 to 110 year old cannon. It has the patination and wear of a cannon made with in the past few years. That is good, not bad.
Red bronze, red brass or gunmetal bronze all the same thing. Look it up.

The preponderance issue is a big one and will need to be addressed. It could be fix by building a screw elevator with a yoke the goes around the neck. The yoke would have to be a pivoting affair.

Off course you could shorten the barrel as I previously suggested, but I understand the reluctance to do that.

Dealing with preponderance is an annoyance. The SAMCC club gun had a serious problem with it and it made shooting difficult.

So the patina and wear patterns of this cannon as seen in the photos posted, strongly suggest that this barrel was cast within a time span of the last few years. I did not know that. Why is it good that this barrel was cast in the last few years?

one thumb short · « **Reply #34 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:29:39 PM »

Cannoner You were right my lady friend sent the pictures into the forum.She is trying to help my wife building a birthday book of pictures for my daughter that's how her picture got in there.the pretty cannoner is now 40yrs old,still pretty and has a pretty 7yr old daughter.thanks for sayin you do not think it is not a naval gun.I did not want to build a naval carriage .I think the proof mark is a proof mark, but I have found similar and it was a English silver mark.I put the close up picture of the muzzle as my screen saver .Want to thank every one and hope to still get info on my cannon .one thumb short

one thumb short · « **Reply #35 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:51:39 PM »

Hi a friend of mine was in the Navy ,he said the crossed keys patch was for a store keeper rate.I do not think the cannon is late model because the owner did not remember much and the store I bought it at said he told them he bought it at a flea market and he had it in his house for a long time so not much use but said he had shot it and that is what they said when he bought it.He just liked it and used it as a show piece.Everyone who has seen it thinks it old,and the wear on certin parts.Still like all the input food for thought.One thumb short

Double D · « **Reply #36 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:05:10 PM »

Quote from: Cannoneer on July 16, 2012, 03:24:23 PM

This fellow (Stephen Jackson) seems to have done his homework (better him than me).
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Esoteric-Symbology-3874/2009/6/Crossed-Keys.htm

I liked the Masonic reference. Basically what allexpert said is crossed keys could be a whole bunch of things.

Quote

So the patina and wear patterns of this cannon as seen in the photos posted, strongly suggest that this barrel was cast within a time span of the last few years. I did not know that. Why is it good that this barrel was cast in the last few years?

Better casting technique, better quality metal alloy.

de_lok · « **Reply #37 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:06:07 PM »

One Thumb Short> You have the makings of a really unique and cool cannon. No, it won't represent a historical correct replica, but it does have the flair and nastalgia of toy and model cannons from a century ago. Those wheels were more than likely double v-belt drive pulleys from a piece of machinery(air compressor, industrial fan, conveyor belt,etc..) They have been machined on before as the rim is out of spec for that type pully. Many model engineers use them for flywheels on model engines. They can be made to look really good, and I would be glad to offer my help in explaining different options you have depending on the tools you have available to work with. The "preponderance issue" is really not an issue for this cannon. Remember, we are dealing with a scale model, not an 1800 lb mass of metal. As mentioned earlier attaching the elevation screw to the rear will work fine if designed well. You could also shim the trunnion caps so the barrel wont move when tightened. This will keep the barrel from tipping,. Shifting the axle/trunnion axis differential will keep the cannon from tipping, problem solved. As you decide how you want to procede myself and others here will be more than happy to share tips, suggestions, and info. I know you don't like the idea of a naval carriage and Im with you on this one. You can take what you have and make it look awesome. You can PM me for my cell if you like and I would be more than willing to walk you thru some options you have to help decide where to start. Youve got some good "before"pics, now we want to see some "after" pics

Ohh, preponderance is a fancy word for greater quantity, mass, volume. Since the trunions are located more rearward than we are accustomed to and it is "front heavy" the preponderance of mass is forward the trunnions. These are not problems, but opportunities

Scauuuze the typos, its past my bedtime and I need new glasses too! !

Double D · « **Reply #38 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:24:57 PM »

Quote from: one thumb short on July 16, 2012, 03:51:39 PM

I do not think the cannon is late model because the owner did not remember much and the store I bought it at said he told them he bought it at a flea market and he had it in his house for a long time so not much use but said he had shot it and that is what they said when he bought it.He just liked it and used it as a show piece.

Humm that fits a cannon that was built in 1999, that is 13 years ago.

Quote

Everyone who has seen it thinks it old,and the wear on certin parts.Still like all the input food for thought.One thumb short

Who is everyone, any back ground in old guns and cannons.

I know you don't like hearing what I am saying. But I am sorry in my experience what I see is not a 60-113 year item. I could be wrong about 1999 but I don't think I am wrong about it not being that old.

And I will tell you this if I am wrong, it will not be the first time.

The real clue about this gun is that mark on the muzzle it will give the answer.....

keith44 · « **Reply #39 on:** July 16, 2012, 06:00:24 PM »

Quote from: one thumb short on July 16, 2012, 03:51:39 PM

.Everyone who has seen it thinks it old,and the wear on certin parts.Still like all the input food for thought.One thumb short

So if everyone jumped off a bridge...?

Sorry one thumb, this is an attempt by a contemporary barrel caster to build an old looking cannon

Victor3 · « **Reply #40 on:** July 16, 2012, 06:18:37 PM »

Quote from: de_lok on July 16, 2012, 05:06:07 PM

Those wheels were more than likely double v-belt drive pulleys from a piece of machinery(air compressor, industrial fan, conveyor belt,etc..) They have been machined on before as the rim is out of spec for that type pully.

V-belt? Machined on?

They appear to be crowned (as evidenced by the paint wear at the center of the OD) pulleys designed for a flat belt.

http://woodgears.ca/bandsaw/crowned_pulleys.html

Victor3 · « **Reply #41 on:** July 16, 2012, 06:51:50 PM »

The keys are obviously a clue to the cannon's intended use; to smash open fortress doors!

I've got nothing to add about the keys other than I've seen very similar hallmarks on antique silver items from England, Germany and Austria.

Where's John M. when you need him? He's probably got a pile of these in the back of his warehouse.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #42 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:16:46 PM »

Quote from: Cannoneer on July 16, 2012, 03:24:23 PM

So the patina and wear patterns of this cannon as seen in the photos posted, strongly suggest that this barrel was cast within a time span of the last few years. I did not know that. Why is it good that this barrel was cast in the last few years?

Quote from: Double D on July 16, 2012, 05:05:10 PM

Better casting technique, better quality metal alloy.

This is good to know. I only wish that all the foundries that have tried to produce a decently finished bronze mortar, from Rocklock's GB Coehorn wax patterns, also knew the same thing.

One thumb short,
While I readily admit that I cannot discern the birthday of your gun by contemplating either the patina or the scratches (or lack thereof) upon its surface, I can assure you that I harbor a healthy sense of skepticism concerning those who claim that they can.

Doc Brown. · « **Reply #43 on:** July 16, 2012, 10:16:06 PM »

Is is normal for trunnions to have them deep wide groves in them like this cannon has and if so what kind of carriage would house such a trunnion? Also with the deep tool marks on the breach ring Im wondering what kind of machine work was done after the barrel was complete. As for the severity of the preponderance im thinking this cannon was cast solid as a ornament for something. Or I think cast iron Cheeks used to be incorporated into the trunnions. I mean the trunnions went into a 360 hole in the side of a cast iron cheek. I think i can see the signs that there was some serious heat put to the trunnion area when the original carriage was cut torched off. I think this cannon was made in china in 1999. It was only available if purchased in bulk wholesale lots. As per the china way they would mark there barrels with not so perfect stamps of crossed keys and other such markings to help the re sellers well re sell the stuff to the unsuspecting masses as a treasure. It just so happens that the girl scouts commissioned a steel stamper thingy bob from the same company that casted these barrels in china. I have no proof but im Innocent until prove guilty.

Im in my underwear eating cereal and watching cartoons.

de_lok · « **Reply #44 on:** July 17, 2012, 01:33:04 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on July 16, 2012, 06:18:37 PM

Quote from: de_lok on July 16, 2012, 05:06:07 PM
Those wheels were more than likely double v-belt drive pulleys from a piece of machinery(air compressor, industrial fan, conveyor belt,etc..) They have been machined on before as the rim is out of spec for that type pully.

V-belt? Machined on?

They appear to be crowned (as evidenced by the paint wear at the center of the OD) pulleys designed for a flat belt.

http://woodgears.ca/bandsaw/crowned_pulleys.html

Notice I said "more than likely" not "those ARE".

I have seen guys take vbelt pulleys and machine them down to make flywheels for homemade hit/miss and steam engines. This was my first impresion or "guess". I agree, crowned flat belt pulleys are very thin on the load serface, and a more accurate description.
My point in the above post was to not be critical of One Thumb Short's cannon as he seems to be excited about his new toy, and incourage him to "go for it" as it does have potential. Its obvious the carriage is homemade, the barrel of questionable origin, but it is his now and he likes it. I personally would make sure the metalurgy was up to being fired. I like to know the psi rating on a metal before I shoot it, but thats just me.
If you look at the "steel cannon" in my photo album you can see what is possible from digging in the "scrap" pile. Every piece of it is made of carbon steel, most of it 1018. 12 inch wheels, barrel is 15"long 2.5dia with 1"bore to give you an idea of scale. All made from rusty old odds and ends from the scrape pile. One Thumb Down has the potential to do the same with his cannon.

one thumb short · « **Reply #45 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:19:59 AM »

Hi Cannoner I still think you are a very smart man as for the quote,and the rest of the responders are smart to.I do not care about the birthday of my cannon,I am curious about it being cast in my cannon and what it means.I know I and my friends are not experts and ageing of cannons we just feel that it is not current but could be old ,that is why I asked about if I can find out more about it maybe it will unlock some info on the cannon.It could have been made last year and made to look old and cast 1899 for any reason but just trying to find out what I bought.I bought it to have fun with it fix it up and shoot it ,first just for noise and if it looks good enough to shoot and not blow up I will do that with it.I know it is a repo of some sort. If Chinese so be it ,if it is safe I will shoot it but first the NOISE.AAHH SOOO One thumb short Thanks for all the input keep it coming ,I am having a good time on this site.

one thumb short · « **Reply #46 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:30:07 AM »

de _lok I really feel stupid ,I am a wood worker ,machinist .The first sale man that had the two cannons for sale told me he thought the wheels looked like machinery ,and I told him they would be flat not crowned after reading your post I feel silly as I have put belts on machinery and seen how the crown works and must be just getting old .You are correct they are industrial pulleys they must have set out side as they are pitted and painted over to look good and wore in the center from the crown.Thanks for breaking loose the cob webs,One thumb short

Cannoneer · « **Reply #47 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:16:02 AM »

Quote from: one thumb short on July 17, 2012, 06:19:59 AM

Hi Cannoner I still think you are a very smart man as for the quote,and the rest of the responders are smart to.I do not care about the birthday of my cannon,I am curious about it being cast in my cannon and what it means.I know I and my friends are not experts and ageing of cannons we just feel that it is not current but could be old ,that is why I asked about if I can find out more about it maybe it will unlock some info on the cannon.It could have been made last year and made to look old and cast 1899 for any reason but just trying to find out what I bought.I bought it to have fun with it fix it up and shoot it ,first just for noise and if it looks good enough to shoot and not blow up I will do that with it.I know it is a repo of some sort. If Chinese so be it ,if it is safe I will shoot it but first the NOISE.AAHH SOOO One thumb short Thanks for all the input keep it coming ,I am having a good time on this site.

I don't think that there's much of a chance that the gun came from China. I've been pondering the ACD initials above the eagle since first seeing them, but I can't come up with anything useful. I will say this though, I think those letters are a lot more interesting feature than the punch stamped mark on the muzzle face.
Perhaps the barrel was cast by Pope Pius XI for presentation to Arthur Conan Doyle.

de_lok · « **Reply #48 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:58:34 AM »

Quote from: one thumb short on July 17, 2012, 06:30:07 AM

de _lok I really feel stupid ,I am a wood worker ,machinist .The first sale man that had the two cannons for sale told me he thought the wheels looked like machinery ,and I told him they would be flat not crowned after reading your post I feel silly as I have put belts on machinery and seen how the crown works and must be just getting old .You are correct they are industrial pulleys they must have set out side as they are pitted and painted over to look good and wore in the center from the crown.Thanks for breaking loose the cob webs,One thumb short

If you chucked the wheels (pulleys lol) up and dialed them in you could narrow the width and take just enough off the OD to get a clean flat surface. Lets say you like the look of the width at 1.5, 1.25, or 1 inch, whatever looks and feels right for you, trying to keep the width consistant with standard bar stock widths. Then take at least 3/16 (I like 1/4 inch better) HRS strips the matching width of your wheels and roll and weld a hoop and sweat fit them over your wheels. If you take your time and make them fit airtight you will be suprised how cool they will look. Then you can sandblast the castiron and fill in the pits with jb weld, or bondo, sand smooth then paint. Glossy red wheels, flat black tires and carriage, gloss red furniture, OOOhhhhhhh yyeeeaaaa..............

Thats just the wheels, lots of stuff you can do to the carriage too..........
All in the scope of home machinist/tinkerer, that doesnt bust the budget

[/quote]

GGaskill · « **Reply #49 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:36:55 PM »

I think the first step in dealing with the preponderance issue is to determine how much out of balance it is. Maybe use a bunch of one pound bullet casting ingots and pile them on the breech until the barrel settles in the rear. If you don't need much, you could epoxy some weight to the bottom of the tube to rebalance and they wouldn't show much.

Victor3 · « **Reply #50 on:** July 17, 2012, 09:15:36 PM »

Another way would be to D&T a hole for a hook on the bottom rear of the bbl ahead of the elevation screw and install an extension spring.

I think the cleanest way would be (as previously mentioned) to just connect the screw to the bbl. That would likely involve more parts and a non-rotating screw, though...

one thumb short · « **Reply #51 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:35:19 AM »

Hi Thanks for all the suggetions on how to fix my wheels .I do not have a lathe that I cuold turh them.They are 17 inch my lathe is 11inch.As for the barrel I will also find a fix that looks right ,as for now I have just tightend the clamps to make it solid ,should be good enough to shoot.I have to turn down the rammer to 1 inch and make a cleaning brush to 1 inch also .the one I have is a 2 inch.I would like to know whay kind of loads to use it has a 1inch bore and is 22 1/2 bore.I am already saving our news paper for wading ,I was told 2 inches of paper for noise.I have black powder butsounds like it is hard ro find once I run out .How about a pirodex load.If I get it checked out o shoot a ball I need a load.one thumb short

Double D · « **Reply #52 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:36:15 AM »

Go to the top of the board and look for the safe load sticky. You will find a chart there for small cannons. I think you will find the maximum recommended load is 195 grains of Fg.

Also in that sticky you will find alink that will take you to an old post on how to make foil cartridges. Read that post. If you use a foil cartridge you won't need any over powder wad.

Newspaper is a very poor and hazardous wad material. In a dry form it shreds and make a big mess and can send burning debris all over. Wet newspaper on the other had is just another projectile and should be treated as such.

Blackpowder doesn't have to be hard to find. You just have to know where to look. One of the most popular places to get black powder is from Powder Inc. http://www.powderinc.com/ Don't be put off by there prices. There prices include shipping and hazamant fee, other suppliers show the per pound cost and then you have to figure out shipping+hazmat. The prices will come out about the same .

Something else you can do is take a look atd GOEX distributors http://www.goexpowder.com/distributors.html. one may near you or be claose enough for a day trip to buy powder.

There are some additional black powder distributors listed in the cannons link list in the stickies.

Do not use Pyrodex in cannons and expecially in a bronze gun. Pyrodex and all the substitutes leave a corrosive residue that attack brass alloys and can cause the alloys to break done. Potassium chlorate is the culprit.

one thumb short · « **Reply #53 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:26:00 PM »

Hi Well folks some of the mystery is solved ,but it just opens for more questions to solve.I finally pulled the tube off the carriage and ran a ball hone down the bore .The bore looks good,like I said it does not look like it had been fired much Since I had the tube off I stsrted looking for any more marks.I found the makers name and date vibera-peened on the bottom of the tube.I know and one could have done it yesterday,but it looks like it has not been messed with since it was made.The mystery is I googled the name and came up blank,I hope someone will remember him or has heard o him.The name was Paul Gunany ,it was made in 1950 ,that is what I picked from the beginning.No place of state or any thing to locate where Paul was from.I hope someone will have known Paul if not I am still happy with it.The other thing is he stamped the crossed keys three times on the end of one of the trunnions,
I discovered another problem with the trunnions is they were cast in and he too two welded together pieces of pipe to come up with the inside and outside to go over the cast trunnion .The trunnions look to be not straight but will know more if I can get the thepipe off the cast trunnions.Now I know when it was made ,have no idea why it was cast with the 1899 or acd or eagle and what about the crossed keys stamp.
Hope some one will be able to still find out any more info on my cannon.I still lovt it and will fix what needs fixing but main reason is to shoot it for noise and then shoot balls.Thank every one who is helping me.One thumb short

Doc Brown. · « **Reply #54 on:** July 18, 2012, 10:01:10 PM »

Are you sure its not Paul Gunnery.

one thumb short · « **Reply #55 on:** July 19, 2012, 06:55:34 AM »

Hi Dock I am sure it's not Paul Gunnery,I will try to get pics of signature and post .Paul is above and on one line .Then I looked again this morning and it is Capital G then a u or i n a sort of space and a little looks like an a then a n y .I just tried ginny gin ny ginany then it could still be a u.That's where I came up with Gunany,or now Ginany,Gin from NY .I re read my discription of the trunnions ,The trunnions are small and cast into the tube to make them larger ,he put two pieces of tubing together.One is the size of the o.d. of the trunnion the other is as big as he wanted the outside of the of the trunnion to be and put them together as a spacer to makethe trunnion bigger.He must not have had a lathe to take a piece of bar stock and bore the inside and turn the o.d.to size but had tubing to fit. Thanks One thumb short

one thumb short · « **Reply #56 on:** July 23, 2012, 09:43:33 AM »

Trying to post pics ,Hope I can doit.

one thumb short · « **Reply #57 on:** July 23, 2012, 10:51:04 AM »

s1076.photobucket.com/albums/w456/one thumb short hope these come thru need any info on signature,crossed keys,1952 .I printed enlarged pic and then took a marks a lot and followed the lines.I came up with Paul Ginany ,1952 ,not sure about a.Sorry I have taken so long to post pics ,first had to get them from a friend so I could post and them firgure out how to post.I hope I have do it .One thumb short WELL I GUESS I WILL HAVE TO TRY TO GET MORE HELP THANKS

carmy53 · « **Reply #58 on:** July 23, 2012, 12:18:35 PM »

Thought I might lend a helping hand. Here are some of the pics.

GGaskill · « **Reply #59 on:** July 23, 2012, 12:55:16 PM »

What is that down the bore?