Another reason to "legalize" locoweed drugs..

[ironglow]

  Twoshooter says;
" As I recall, Jesus did not run drunks or whores out of the temple, it was the money changers........he never said it was hard for a thief or murderer to get into heaven, the thief on the cross went with him when he left."
...
 
  'As you recall'..    You really ought to read The Book more often...
 
  Jesus didn't run the drunks and whores out of the temple..they wouldn't have been there in the first place.  The money changers were, so He drove them out.  He cured the drunks and whores and drew them to him as converts.  He would have converted the money changers, were they willing...and perhaps he did..
 
     The other part, where you claim "He never said it was hard for a thief or murderer to get into heaven".... is REALLY far out !
  Please; if you want to employ jesus to boplster your arguments, at least be familiar with what He has said on the subject.
 
  I don't know where you got your information, but it certainly wasn't from the handbook..the Bible..          
   ..Here's what the Bible says..It is what He taught and here, Paul instructs the people in Corinth:
 ......................................................
    " Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
.............................................
  Now, back to the thread;   ...
 
   " Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
(Gal 5:19-21 NAS)
..............................................
  Notice the term sorcery...  The original word in Greek Koine language was "Pharmakia"..the root word of our word "Pharmacy".  Drugs in the form of powders, smoke etc were all used by the ancient occultists to cast spells, and bring others under their control..they used many methods of enticing novices.  Things such as necromancy, bestiality, idols, drugs, slight -of-hand, sacrificing children etc.  Some Bible translations simply lump all these practices under "witchcraft'.
      Is a favored "high", genuine sorcery or simply witchcraft ? ....Take your pick..    
 
    Notice in the verse, the highlighted word practice , many people have done bad, even evil things in their past, but upon accepting Christ all is forgiven.  Some even may slip back, but return confess and pick up again where they left off.  That is why the word practice is used here, completely in context.
   Never too late, seek Him while you can..

[ironglow]

Hey IG..perhaps those 'money changers' are amongst the worst of thieves and murderers on the grand misery scale...and it looks like they ran around and came in the back door of 'temple' again.!! BTW,,, those money changers were also dealing in sacrificial animal sales...and perhaps human sacrifices by some accounts....
.
.
..TM7

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   By golly TM you are nearly correct for once.  There was no human sacrifice in the temple..but some misled guys in the Old Testament did it ! 
      Take King Manasseh for instance, he really deserted God's principles, did everything wrong and sacrificed his own son;
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
    " And he made his son pass through the fire, and practiced soothsaying, and used witchcraft, and dealt with mediums and wizards: he did much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger."  ( 2Kings 21:6)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
     So, where did Mannaseh and even his son Amon get these ideas ? Just 4 verses earlier the Bible says he got them from the Ishmaelites living around him;     
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
   
 

 
 

 "Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hephzibah. And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel"    (2 Kings 21:1,2)
 
    ....But not to leave you disappointed, After Amon.. came Josiah; a truly great king who brought Israel back to the one, true God.  ..And getting back to the thread;.. Josiah stopped all the vile practices of his father & grandfather, broke down the idols, stopped all the evil practices of their "priests" who burned special "incense" to the evil, false gods. 
   

[finisher]

The same people that complain about the Nanny government wanting to keep us safe by banning guns want that same Nanny government to keep us safe by banning drugs.

Selective morality

Of course it is! ALL morality is selective by it's very nature.

Which is probably why the government shouldn't be concerning itself with legislating "morality".  Ethics yes, but morals no.

********************
This is one of the most sensible things I've read in a while. Big Navy HOOyah to you sir.

[finisher]

You can pass all the laws you want and it won't make a bit of difference in the consumption of mind altering drugs. I see where one species of this magic mushroom (Psilocybe-Cubensis) Grows wild in Fla, Ala, Texas, Mexico and parts of Okla and Ark.
The other (Psilocybe-Cyanescens) Grows from BC Canada to Southern California.The entire west coast.
Good luck stopping the consumption of them I say decriminalize the (use) of drugs.Not talking about someone selling drugs or giving drugs to our children.But why make a criminal out of our children caught using them?Being old.... I don't remember kids in my community doing drugs other than Alcohol. Not that Alcohol is a good drug! IMO, it's actually worse than MJ.(weed) I haven't done either for about 20 years.Tried the grass a few times, and the booze more times than I want to remember.YEP! I actually admit to going beyond sniffing the wine cork or beer bottle  
When most teens were busted for driving around with booze in the car, and in the body, the officers took the booze and gave us a lecture.If we were really drunk, we got a ride home.
Putting someone in prison for drug abuse to themselves isn't doing them a bit of good, or Taxpayers.It just creates more Government control jobs at (Again) the tax payers expense.

****************
This sir, is a very brave line of commentary that should be more fervently championed. Dangerous waters for sure.

[finisher]

YT,
 
Yes you can make it sound unreasonable.......by leaving out part of the definition. 
 
Regarding the impulse control.....you got a lot of experiance with substance abusers? I deal with them on a near daily basis and can tell you for a fact that it is major factor.
 
You can call it BS, but that doesn't make it so. Actually, is sounds like you don't WANT any definition of substance abuse.
 
Personally, I have no answers! I see the tragic results too often to say it it is a victimless crime, but I also am fully cognisant of the fact that the so called "war on drugs" is an abject failure and may actually be the largest contributing factor in the problem.

*************
Cuts, I never would have predicted such a view from you. Just being who you are and putting yourself out here to take fire for such a statement changes my perspective towards you (not that you need my approval).


But from my past posts you know that I have seen the same collateral damage brought about by the so called "War On Drugs" and I see it as no different than the days of Prohibition with the Volkstead Act except that the stakes are much higher..  In spite of peoples differences there are always things upon which people can find a common perspective. There is always hope for this "Ship of Fools". Always.

[ironglow]

  I really don't expect to convert people who are already using them..to drop their addictive drugs.  I expect they will use their favorite..crack/pot?
  All I can do is warn them..that I have done... and the legion of crack/pots will go on using and suppoorting the cartels in their murderous business.
  No surprise.. they are called crackpots !!

[finisher]

  I really don't expect to convert people who are already using them..to drop their addictive drugs.  I expect they will use their favorite..crack/pot?
  All I can do is warn them..that I have done... and the legion of crack/pots will go on using and suppoorting the cartels in their murderous business.
  No surprise.. they are called crackpots !!

*******************
All I can say IG is that when you eliminate the element of profit, half of the evil will be gone. Like so many other evils in this world, the root of it is almost always the love of money. (Or maybe at least 1 out of 7 times, if you get my meaning  )

[bobg]

   Might as well make pot legal. The people around here that use have no problem getting it. I never had any interest in smoking the stuff. I do think the beer i drink is worse than the pot.

[ironglow]

  In answer to those who would legalize drugs..

Some people drive too fast..remove speed limits
 
Some people steal things...make theft legal
 
 Some people burn buildings down..remove the penalties
 
Some people mistreat animals..legalise that too
 
Some people pass rubber checks...they probably need the money

Same for the corner drug pusher..maybe we can provide him a stipend
 
Some individuals drive off from the gas pump without paying..let them go.
 
Some people poach deer for the antlers..why stop them?
 
Some are into kidnapping..why stop them?
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Do you have any idea how much it costs to stop these activities..many connected to drug use? 

It seems as soon as they catch someone committing one of these illegal acts..another one pops up somewhere doing the same thing anyway...Why waste tax money searching them out?
 
Law enforcement is an expensive operation; think how much it would save if we did away with all the personel, burocracy, labs, vehicles and everything connected to LE.
 
Complete anarchy would reinforce the need for our 2nd amendment. 
 
   After all, one brilliant helping of logic deserves another..

[ironglow]

  I really don't expect to convert people who are already using them..to drop their addictive drugs.  I expect they will use their favorite..crack/pot?
  All I can do is warn them..that I have done... and the legion of crack/pots will go on using and suppoorting the cartels in their murderous business.
  No surprise.. they are called crackpots !!

*******************
All I can say IG is that when you eliminate the element of profit, half of the evil will be gone. Like so many other evils in this world, the root of it is almost always the love of money. (Or maybe at least 1 out of 7 times, if you get my meaning  )

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    Nope; don't get your meaning !    ?

[ironglow]

   Might as well make pot legal. The people around here that use have no problem getting it. I never had any interest in smoking the stuff. I do think the beer i drink is worse than the pot.

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  If the beer you drink is more dangerous, more addictive.... than the drugs...  why in the world do you use it?

[Singleshotsam]

If the beer you drink is more dangerous, more addictive.... than the drugs...  why in the world do you use it?

Good question.
 

[MGMorden]

  In answer to those who would legalize drugs..

Some people drive too fast..remove speed limits
 
Some people steal things...make theft legal
 
 Some people burn buildings down..remove the penalties
 
Some people mistreat animals..legalise that too
 
Some people pass rubber checks...they probably need the money

Same for the corner drug pusher..maybe we can provide him a stipend
 
Some individuals drive off from the gas pump without paying..let them go.
 
Some people poach deer for the antlers..why stop them?
 
Some are into kidnapping..why stop them?
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Do you have any idea how much it costs to stop these activities..many connected to drug use? 

It seems as soon as they catch someone committing one of these illegal acts..another one pops up somewhere doing the same thing anyway...Why waste tax money searching them out?
 
Law enforcement is an expensive operation; think how much it would save if we did away with all the personel, burocracy, labs, vehicles and everything connected to LE.
 
Complete anarchy would reinforce the need for our 2nd amendment. 
 
   After all, one brilliant helping of logic deserves another..

You're operating under the premise that drug use is wrong, so that any argument to decriminalize it is an argument to stop the punishment of all things that are wrong.  You have to back the logic train up a bit and stop arguing what to many is a false premise.


The simple fact is that to many, anything done by consenting adults that has no direct effect on anyone else is not wrong, nor should it be regulated.  Notice too that I said DIRECT.  Once you open up the door to INDIRECT or POSSIBLE effects (ie, well if they do A then they might go off and do B) then you can justify banning almost anything you want - including guns.  Saying that if you let people use drugs they "might" go off and rob someone is the EXACT argument anti's use with guns ("If you let people own guns, they'll go out and commit murder"). 


Now, also consider the fact that the illegal drug trade itself causes tons of damage.  Compare it to the prohibition era.  The moonshine running gangs basically had the money and power to control HUGE segments of society because the illegal status of their product made it so that a) anyone selling it could do so at high prices and hence generate a huge fund base, and b) only the most hardened and seediest of folks could successfully maintain their status.  Social evolution in action.


As soon as the illegal status of alcohol was lifted the power of those gangs crumbled overnight.  I can guarantee you that you'd see a lot less drug cartel related crimes if instead of buying from some dealer down a dark alley people could legally buy a pack of weed down at the local 7-11.


In particular aside from the hard stuff the fact that marijuana is illegal continues to baffle me.  We make a particular plant illegal because when people smoke it they become extremely friendly and so relaxed that they can just barely muster the motivation to go get some cheetos.  Committing any crimes would be too much effort .

[yellowtail3]

... You have to back the logic train up a bit and stop arguing what to many is a false premise.
...
.... ... .....

what he said...

[Empty Quiver]

Decrimanalizing drugs would not make it any less illegal to rob, murder, drive wrecklesly, etc. Alcohol is legal and you can still get yourself imprisoned for being too drunk as well as any crime committed while intoxicated.
 
You have been brainwashed into thinking big brother knows best. About the time people start worrying about their own problems and those of their immediate family, the sooner this country will turn around.
 
Illegal drug money fuels a huge economy. Those profiting will be damned if they woud let drugs become legal. Bankers laundering and moving vast amounts of cash across borders. Political candidates needing vast amounts of cash to be re-elected. Now move to those who are employed to stop the drug trade. From the Border Patrol agents, to the truck driver who is delivering canned corn to the federal prison, from the cop on the street to the lawyer defending the perp, from the mule carrying a pack of coke to the crip dealing in the alley, EVERYONE involved has a vested interest in assuring drugs are never legalized.
 
As in most unexplainable things, follow the money.

[ironglow]

... You have to back the logic train up a bit and stop arguing what to many is a false premise.
...
.... ... .....

what he said...

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    You cannot say definitively that even "weed" is not harmful:
  http://recoveringaddict.hubpages.com/hub/Marijuana-withdrawal-symptoms-Insomnia--anxiety--iritability--headache
 
  Harvard medical is not thrilled with it's effects on the human body..short or long term:
  http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html
  Individual states know that using that trash and driving, shooting or operating equipment is not a safe bet, here Indiana:
     http://www.drugs.indiana.edu/publications/factline/marijuana.pdf
 
  Comparing drug usage to gun ownership is specious at best and downright dissembling at worst.  Guns are useful and part of our constitution and heritage.. http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/armed-citizen/
 
  Compared to gun ownership,There is no usefulness in the noxious weed.  Trying to impress me with a comparison with tobacco, alcohol or other addictive substances...falls on deaf ears, since as a teenager I saw the wisdom and have since declined the use of any addictive habits...I have never bought a lottery ticket, even though I did smoke a regular pipe for about 10 years... several decades ago.  When I dropped the pipe, I found I wasn't hooked on tobacco, since like Slick Willy.."i didn't inhale"     
        The stuff is of no good use, so I have trouble figuring why adult, supposedly mature men would tinker with it.

[MGMorden]

    You cannot say definitively that even "weed" is not harmful:
  http://recoveringaddict.hubpages.com/hub/Marijuana-withdrawal-symptoms-Insomnia--anxiety--iritability--headache
 
  Harvard medical is not thrilled with it's effects on the human body..short or long term:
  http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html
  Individual states know that using that trash and driving, shooting or operating equipment is not a safe bet, here Indiana:
     http://www.drugs.indiana.edu/publications/factline/marijuana.pdf

Lets assume for a bit that these pages are accurate (nevermind that not one of them is actually to a scientific study, which I can pull up an equal or larger number of studies that show it has no ill effects, but just for the sake of argument, lets assume they're right).  Ok, so with that assumption, we'll consider it unhealthy.


Do you realize the number of articles that can be cited for the health issues associated with say, fried foods?  Sodas? Tanning beds?  Or hitting particularly close to home in our hobby - lead exposure? 


Even IF something is unhealthy, that doesn't mean any sane society outlaws it (unless you feel like living in a nanny state).  That simply means that those that take part in the activity should simply be aware of the risks and temper their participation accordingly.

The stuff is of no good use, so I have trouble figuring why adult, supposedly mature men would tinker with it.

I have the same opinion of MTV Reality Shows.  HOWEVER, there's a huge difference in saying "I don't like this, and don't see why one would mess with it." and saying "You shall not do this under penalty of law.". 


For any of us to truly be free, we have to accept that lots of people will be doing things that we ourselves don't care for.  That's fine, as we're also doing things THEY don't care for.  As long as we're not hurting each other, live and let live.

[Empty Quiver]

... You have to back the logic train up a bit and stop arguing what to many is a false premise.
...
.... ... .....

what he said...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
    You cannot say definitively that even "weed" is not harmful:
  http://recoveringaddict.hubpages.com/hub/Marijuana-withdrawal-symptoms-Insomnia--anxiety--iritability--headache
 
  Harvard medical is not thrilled with it's effects on the human body..short or long term:
  http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html
  Individual states know that using that trash and driving, shooting or operating equipment is not a safe bet, here Indiana:
     http://www.drugs.indiana.edu/publications/factline/marijuana.pdf
 
  Comparing drug usage to gun ownership is specious at best and downright dissembling at worst.  Guns are useful and part of our constitution and heritage.. http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/armed-citizen/
 
  Compared to gun ownership,There is no usefulness in the noxious weed.  Trying to impress me with a comparison with tobacco, alcohol or other addictive substances...falls on deaf ears, since as a teenager I saw the wisdom and have since declined the use of any addictive habits...I have never bought a lottery ticket, even though I did smoke a regular pipe for about 10 years... several decades ago.  When I dropped the pipe, I found I wasn't hooked on tobacco, since like Slick Willy.."i didn't inhale"     
        The stuff is of no good use, so I have trouble figuring why adult, supposedly mature men would tinker with it.

Inflicting your values and judgement on someone who is harming no one but themselves?  Where do you get that right? Hunting, shooting, fishing, riding ATV's, riding horses, omnivorous diets, poor dental hygiene, bad attitude, embracing traditional religious values, driving an unladen truck, you see where I'm going. All these behaviours are un-neccesary, they are unhealthy and could endanger by-standers or mother nature. A convincing arguement can be made to eliminate each and every one of the afore mentioned activities.
 
We think of ourselves as free men able to decide for ourselves what is in our best interest. Every time we think for others we leave another crack whereby others can think for us. It is none of my damned business how you entertain yourself as long as you don't harm others in the process. I love watching drag racing, I understand there is a chance a car could come through the fence. I however can't condone street racing which clearly endangers those who cannot choose to remove themselves from the race. 
 
There is a time and place for drinking, and there must be a time and place for ellicit drug use. With the simple tonnage of drugs being consumed you would expect the crime, poverty, and general mayhem to be off the charts. Remove all crime associated with the distribution and what is left? Gangs? gone. Burglery? un-needed as drugs are cheap and you don't lose your job for having partied with your friends last week. Car crashes involving intoxicated drivers? Is high any different than drunk?
 
Lastly, you don't really think it is difficult to obtain drugs now do you? There will be about as many addicts as there always are. The change will be in the money available to help them rather than incarcerate them.

[finisher]

  I really don't expect to convert people who are already using them..to drop their addictive drugs.  I expect they will use their favorite..crack/pot?
  All I can do is warn them..that I have done... and the legion of crack/pots will go on using and suppoorting the cartels in their murderous business.
  No surprise.. they are called crackpots !!

*******************
All I can say IG is that when you eliminate the element of profit, half of the evil will be gone. Like so many other evils in this world, the root of it is almost always the love of money. (Or maybe at least 1 out of 7 times, if you get my meaning  )

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    Nope; don't get your meaning !    ?

***********************


It was an attempt at a humorous poke about the seven deadly sins (greed in this case). No ill will intended.

[ironglow]

  I really don't expect to convert people who are already using them..to drop their addictive drugs.  I expect they will use their favorite..crack/pot?
  All I can do is warn them..that I have done... and the legion of crack/pots will go on using and suppoorting the cartels in their murderous business.
  No surprise.. they are called crackpots !!

*******************
All I can say IG is that when you eliminate the element of profit, half of the evil will be gone. Like so many other evils in this world, the root of it is almost always the love of money. (Or maybe at least 1 out of 7 times, if you get my meaning  )

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    Nope; don't get your meaning !    ?

***********************


It was an attempt at a humorous poke about the seven deadly sins (greed in this case). No ill will intended.

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  OK got it!  I probably didn't get the "7 deadly sins" since it isn't in my lexicon..since only one sin is unforgiveable..
 
 

[45-70.gov]

If the beer you drink is more dangerous, more addictive.... than the drugs...  why in the world do you use it?

Good question.

why is it a question
some people get addicted some don't


i have diabetes   some people don't


should others be banned from sugar   or sweet large drinks??


is freedom an issue to  some people here???

[Empty Quiver]

[quote author
is freedom an issue to  some people here???
There is some concern over the freedom to control the lives of others.

[ironglow]

   Control is hardly the question.. when the crack/pots can't even be educated, concerning addictive, brain rotting substances..

[Empty Quiver]

   Control is hardly the question.. when the crack/pots can't even be educated, concerning addictive, brain rotting substances..

IG they know and don't care. That's the thing, they do know.
 
They are making informed decisions. They have decided to seek the temporary but immediate gritification of a drug induced high.
 
 Some people decide their life is not worth living. Some decide they are better than those surrounding them. Some want to fit into society, never standing out. Some folks are happiest when their path is chosen for them. Some want to travel the path least chosen.
 
I would like to see everyone succeed in life, as I am sure you do, IG. I just don't see it as my place to define success ( or failure )for everyone.

[45-70.gov]

   Control is hardly the question.. when the crack/pots can't even be educated, concerning addictive, brain rotting substances..

i truely don't care what the crack pots do


why do you?....[assuming they stay off the road]

[ironglow]

   Control is hardly the question.. when the crack/pots can't even be educated, concerning addictive, brain rotting substances..

i truely don't care what the crack pots do


why do you?....[assuming they stay off the road]

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   You can't assume they will stay off the road.  Nor can you assume they will stay off heavy machinery, or be drowsy or have a buzz on when fighting a fire, carrying a gun, mixing farm chemicals, doing electrical wiring or cutting trees down in a neighborhood.  I was told a couple weeks ago about an idiot who was buzzed up, dropping a 10 lb piece of pipe from 100 feet, very narrowly missing a co-worker.... then that vegetable had a laughing fit over the incident.  They checked him to find what his stupid problem was..yep a crackpot!  He should have been jailed as well as fired..
   I don't know if they hunted down his supplier...but they should have..

[45-70.gov]

my dad  used to operate on people drunk


lets just out law alcohol  and throw every drinker in jail


freedom isn't free

[ironglow]

  OK; I guess anarchy, chaos and nihilism are the way to go for some folks..much of the self -absorbed crowd are well on their way already anyway. 
   That's reminiscent of the last days of many, now historically fallen cultures.

[MGMorden]

   You can't assume they will stay off the road.  Nor can you assume they will stay off heavy machinery, or be drowsy or have a buzz on when fighting a fire, carrying a gun, mixing farm chemicals, doing electrical wiring or cutting trees down in a neighborhood.

Oh yes, we can.  Just like we assume that anyone who buys a gun isn't going to go on a shooting spree.  We assume that those that drive a car aren't going to go plow it into pedestrians.  That's why freedom IS, is having the choice to do what you want until it starts hurting others directly.


That tired old line about restricting people's freedom based on what they MIGHT do is the same BS that's used to impede on freedom every time.  Setup curfews based on what people MIGHT do after dark.  Restrict where people can go because in the wrong part of town people MIGHT commit a crime.  Limit their access to gun because people MIGHT go out and start shooting people.  Limit your freedom of speech because you MIGHT start a riot against the government.


If you simply can't live in a society where people are free for fear of what they might do, then Vietnam or China may be a better choice of locale for you.

[ironglow]

Morden says;
  " Oh yes, we can.  Just like we assume that anyone who buys a gun isn't going to go on a shooting spree.  We assume that those that drive a car aren't going to go plow it into pedestrians.  That's why freedom IS, is having the choice to do what you want until it starts hurting others directly".
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  There is a huge difference..guns and cars are useful and not intended to be use to fog brains...  But when it comes to noxious weeds, I'm not going to lose any sleep defending ragweed, poison ivy, poison oak or Kudzu..either