Author Topic: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.  (Read 1490 times)

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Offline powderman

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Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 10:01:54 AM »
My Dr said his son changed his major from med to law as had many of his friends. He also said that if a Dr from another country comes here the test they take has had the score lowered to pass so the expected decline in American born DR's can be filled easy with Dr's who would work for less pay. True or not I don't know .
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Offline SwampThing762

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 12:24:54 PM »
My physician has said he will close his office on jan 1, 2014 if obamacare is not repealed.   When that happens, ERs will be flooded with patients -- many of whom will not pay for services.

Libs should be proud of their hope and change -- it will destroy this nation.

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Offline hardertr

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 12:36:38 PM »
FACT CHECK ON ISLE 5 PLEASE!    :o




http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/07/10/comically-awful-survey-says-83-percent-of-docto/187029


When the "survey" is done by fax, and only 4.3% of the doctors reportedly answered the survey..... do you REALLY think it's a fair assessment?  Oh wait..... YOU probably do.
The problem with troubleshooting is....sometimes it shoots back!

Offline josiah712

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 01:27:59 PM »
I hope the whole 83% quit, that is the right attitude.  Our great grandparents would have took up arms a long time ago.  Since no one in our generation is willing to do that, then we need massive disobedience of any type, against these tyrants.
 
Obamacare must not be complied with.
"It is when the people forget God, that tyrants forge their chains"

                                   Patrick Henry

Offline powderman

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 01:35:47 PM »
Quote
Libs should be proud of their hope and change -- it will destroy this nation.


 
ST. They plan to destroy us, it's what liberals do. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Needles

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 04:21:58 PM »
I call BS on this. The DPMA is a coalition of Republican Drs. Funded by Republicans, and is "non-partisan" in name only. More blowing of smoke. NONE of the MDs in the hospital where I work would be associated with them. If you look at their blog, it is just a rehashing of the Republican whining about the ACA. Their blog says nothing substantial and offers no solutions! Credibility=0.
Jim

"There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, the night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."  Patrick Rothfuss

Offline crustylicious

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 04:28:54 PM »
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
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Offline powderman

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 04:29:41 PM »
Our family dr for the past 30+ years says it will hurt him and he might close up shop thanks to obummercare. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline Needles

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 11:54:46 PM »
Our family dr for the past 30+ years says it will hurt him and he might close up shop thanks to obummercare. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(

If your MD is a doctor in the US and has been working for 30+ years, he is a multi-millionaire and does not need to work--- he's just looking for an excuse to retire. This is the only country in the world where becoming a doctor automatically makes you a millionaire. Part of the problem with our healthcare system is everybody keeps wanting a bigger piece of the pie. The pie is not getting bigger, so the slices the docs, healthcare administrators, and insurance companies take HAVE to get smaller.
Jim

"There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, the night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."  Patrick Rothfuss

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 12:28:00 AM »
Some of you libs haven't downloaded the whole 2,000 page bill and read it.  My doctors said they may retire early because of it.  My dentist said the same.  IF JUST half of the doctors retire who said they would, it will be devistating. 
1st, America is in serious debt, we can't afford it.\
2nd, My insurance went up because of it.
3.  I have a cousin who is a VP in one of the states insurance companies.  He said it is a bureaucratic nightmare.  Written by lawyers, not doctors. 
 
Everyone agrees something needs to be done, but what was done is not what is needed.  It is a mess. 
 
Just wait for your bills to go up, your taxes to go up, and you get less care because of the overload on the doctors that are left. 
 
Just pass the bill so we can see what is in it.  So STUPID. 

Offline Needles

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 01:26:20 AM »
Some of you libs haven't downloaded the whole 2,000 page bill and read it.  My doctors said they may retire early because of it.  My dentist said the same.  IF JUST half of the doctors retire who said they would, it will be devistating. 
1st, America is in serious debt, we can't afford it.\
2nd, My insurance went up because of it.
3.  I have a cousin who is a VP in one of the states insurance companies.  He said it is a bureaucratic nightmare.  Written by lawyers, not doctors. 
 
Everyone agrees something needs to be done, but what was done is not what is needed.  It is a mess. 
 
Just wait for your bills to go up, your taxes to go up, and you get less care because of the overload on the doctors that are left. 
 
Just pass the bill so we can see what is in it.  So STUPID.

In other words, your MDs, obviously paragons of the system you so vigorously defend, have been over charging you and their other patients to the extent that they CAN retire early, and would rather not work than take less from you. The point of the ACA is to take the first steps to get insurance corporations OUT of the healthcare business. The law is so complicated because it allows the insurance companies to stay in business--- for now. It will soon become apparent that the insurance companies ARE the problem, as well as greedy docs like yours. It's obvious NOW, in fact, to everyone but conservatives.
Jim

"There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, the night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."  Patrick Rothfuss

Offline gstewart44

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 02:00:24 AM »
If your MD is a doctor in the US and has been working for 30+ years, he is a multi-millionaire and does not need to work--- he's just looking for an excuse to retire. This is the only country in the world where becoming a doctor automatically makes you a millionaire. Part of the problem with our healthcare system is everybody keeps wanting a bigger piece of the pie. The pie is not getting bigger, so the slices the docs, healthcare administrators, and insurance companies take HAVE to get smaller.
I don't know where you live but your assertion that becoming a doctor automatically makes you a millionaire is just plain false.....  :o      it is a comically juvenile, naive and just plain ignorant statement that has no factual basis.    Please share with us where you have "learned" what you state as fact... ???
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 02:26:00 AM »
My doctor also said he was paying $2,600 a month malpractice insurance.  He said IF they had the tort reform and had a $1 million dollar limit, it would drop to $1,400 a month.  That translates to lower visit costs. 
 
The Obama bill did not address the following:
 
More doctors needed to cover the increase in patients from those uninsured.
 
More medical facilities needed to handle these doctors.
 
Cost of malpractice insurance.
 
Allowing cross state lines for insurance so people can shop for better prices for coverange.  (Like auto insurance).  This would allow more competition among insurance companies so costs can be lower.
 
The Obamacare bill is nothing more than a backdoor way for government takeover of the healthcare industry.  Mark my words, within 10 years if implemented fully, health care will deteriorate, lines will form, government will take over.  They will decide who you can see, and what care you can get. 
 
I grew up in a free country, but in the last 20 years our country has become far more socialist with more dos and don'ts than you can shake a stick at. 
 
Industrial accidents were going down until OSHA was implemented.  Then they went up because the government was telling industry what they could and couldn't do.  Before then, insurance companies were forcing industry to make safety changes to keep their rates down. 
 
Before the Great Society and Federal Welfare, we had around 11% poverty in America.  Now after $4 trillion spent on federal welfare programs, we have about 15% poverty.  That didn't work either.
 
Before the breakdown of families, we had less crime, less divorce. 
 
Before the 1968 gun control laws, we had less gun crime, more respect for guns.  I was about 10-12 and me and my buddies would get 22 rifles and go through our neighborhood to a wooded area across a highway to hunt squirrels and rabbits.  If anyone saw us, it was just to say be careful.  Today a swat team would be called and we would have been thrown in to juvenile detention. 
 
My parents and grandparents said times were better back then in WWII, in the depression, etc.  There was hard work and respect.  Crime was low. 
 
This is the America I want to go back to.  Stores were closed on Sunday, people visited family, went to chruch, rested.  People respected each other.  The poor were taken care of by families, charities, chruches, etc.  Didn't need government. 

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 02:34:35 AM »
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  83% is high.  I Googled it.  It ranges, based on surveys, 45% was one survey that doctors were considering early retirement.  If just 10 or 20% take early retirement, this could devistate healthcare in America.  It would overload the system. 
 
This bill was passed in a rush, and wasn't thought through.  Each part should have been voted on seperately to get the best out of it, not all lumped together without thought of the details.  The details are going to be the downfall of healthcare in America and it won't kick in completely until 2014.  Then you will start to see the mess begin. 
 
I believe with the national debt, that we may not even see it implemented as the government could crash like the Soviet Union under it's own debt, then what is going to happen?  Are you ready for that?  China's economy is entering recession now, Europe already is in one, we are going into a double dip.  Things won't get better until the government steps out of the way, we have another major world war, or we get a dictatorship.  Study your history, we are headed the way of the Weimar Republic, Old Russia, etc.  Obama is almost a dictator now.   

Offline gstewart44

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 03:06:54 AM »
Dixie Dude - you are spot on in Reply #13.      But one of the issues that most people don't realize is that it won't take 10 years for the lines to form.....  what the Obama/Democrats have devised will automatically place  30 MILLION more individuals into a system that is clogged already.    The lines and healthcare rationing will begin as soon as the 30 million get their "cards" .     We simply don't have enough healthcare providers now.     But further the Obamacare bill will be funding "schools" to allow lesser trained individuals to practice medicine and dentistry.     Basically "anyone the Secretary of Health and Human Services deems appropriate"  can attend a two year vocational school and come out and drill/fill/and do simple and surgical extractions.      Starting to treat Healthcare education and training as a trade school.        How many of those out there would want to go to England for their dental care or medical specialty care?     
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline magooch

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 03:28:02 AM »
I am a member of an HMO and I'll guarantee you that the doctors who work for this HMO never got to be millionaires by working there.   That doesn't mean that being covered by the HMO is cheap, though.  It is a non-profit--whatever that means.
 
None of this is sour grapes; the health care from this HMO has been splendid, but Obama and the stupid dumycrats are doing their best to mess that up.
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 04:13:01 AM »
Doctors go to school and intern for 10-12 years.  Most with no or limited income.  Even if they had a scholorship for school, most had to take out student loans to pay for living expenses during that time.  So they don't start practice until they are around 30 and have a mountain of student debt, like maybe $100-200 thousand for student loans.  They get about $75 per patient visit.  So they visit 10 patients an hour.  That is $750.  That MIGHT be  $30,000 a week.  say for about 40 weeks out of a year.  That is $1,200,000 a year.  Now, they have to have a receptionist ($30,000 a year with matching social security and their own insurance).  A nurse ($75,000 a year with ss and benefits).  Power bills could run $500 a month ($6,000 a year).  Rent on office space ($20,000) a year.  Payments on medical equipment (who knows what this is)  (say $20,000 a year.  Malpractice insurance ($30,000 a year.  Student loan payment $20,000 a year.  After all this he might make a million.  However, he will not see 10 patients an hour, 5-6 will probably be the limit as he has to make hospital visits to patients in the hospital.  So he might not make but $600,000 a year.  After all the above expenses, he might clear $400,000.  Taxes and self employed social security will be about $150,000.  So he makes $250,000 a year.  He is providing at least 2 jobs directly, and maybe 1-2 more if a hospital is involved.  Now he might be a millionare if he saves some of the $250,000, after he buys a house, car, etc.  He might save $50,000 a year out of the $250,000 so it would take him 20 years to have a million saved, maybe less if he invests wisely.  Don't give me the crap that ALL doctors are millionares.  It takes a lot of hard work and a large enough patient base to acquire that. 
 
This class warefare stuff is nothing but socialist propaganda.  Anyone once could become a millionare in America with hard work, dicipline, savings, etc. 
 
Even if you got paid minimum wage and saved 10% for about 30 years at minimum wage, you could be a millionare.  A single person doing this might not be able to, but a married couple saving 10% both working could retire as millionares.  Problem is with young people today, no dicipline.  They want instant gratification.
 
Also read some interesting statistics several years back.  About 75% of people in hospitals before old age, have problems associated with their lifestyles; cancer due to smoking, obesity causing heart disease, strokes, and diabetes, drug use, unprotected sex, alcohol abuse, etc.  Most of this if people took care of themselves, would bring health care costs down.  People do not take walks, or do outside activities, even kids don't play outside like they once did.  TV and video games have made couch potatoes out of people, or excessive partying, drinking, sex and drugs. 
 
Now if they put a TV tax after say 3 hours a day or 20 hours a week (that is being liberal with the time), video game tax, legalise and tax drugs, increase alcohol tax, tax snack food and soft drinks, maybe the could raise enough money to help cover some health care costs. 

Offline Needles

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 04:58:37 AM »
Dude, Family Practice Physicians  clear about $160,000 a year. Any way you look at it, in ten years that's $1.6 million. The whole rest of your post sounds like an argument to lower the cost of education and get rid of insurance companies! And, by the way, THEIR SHARE averages about $75 per pt--- that's AFTER they pay everything else. Oh, yeah, the last six of that 12 years of "education" they are paid. An intern is a doctor. A resident is a doctor. They have already passed their boards, and they are not working for free. So, don't fool yourself, they ARE millionaires.
Jim

"There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, the night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."  Patrick Rothfuss

Offline tobster

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 05:50:16 AM »
Our family dr for the past 30  years says it will hurt him and he might close up shop thanks to obummercare. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(

"If your MD is a doctor in the US and has been working for 30  years, he is a multi-millionaire and does not need to work--- he's just looking for an excuse to retire. This is the only country in the world where becoming a doctor automatically makes you a millionaire. Part of the problem with our healthcare system is everybody keeps wanting a bigger piece of the pie. The pie is not getting bigger, so the slices the docs, healthcare administrators, and insurance companies take HAVE to get smaller.
"          I have an uncle who went back to med school after he married and had two children. My aunt was a school teacher and they scraped by on her salary while he was in school. He got his degree and had a small practice for many years. He didn't double book his schedule so  you didn't spend half a day waiting for your scheduled appointment and he did quite a bit of charity work. He once told me my aunt (who had a masters degree and a lot of years teaching) ended up making more money than he did after he paid his secretary who answered the phone and did the reams of insurance paperwork, paid his nurse,paid his malpractice insurance, paid rent and utilities on his office building, ate the bills from patients that never paid, paid for his medical equipment etc. If he took a vacation, it was without pay. I can assure you he made a comfortable living but was a long way from being a millionaire.

Offline gstewart44

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2012, 07:19:28 AM »
Dude, Family Practice Physicians  clear about $160,000 a year. Any way you look at it, in ten years that's $1.6 million. The whole rest of your post sounds like an argument to lower the cost of education and get rid of insurance companies! And, by the way, THEIR SHARE averages about $75 per pt--- that's AFTER they pay everything else. Oh, yeah, the last six of that 12 years of "education" they are paid. An intern is a doctor. A resident is a doctor. They have already passed their boards, and they are not working for free. So, don't fool yourself, they ARE millionaires.
Wow - you really show some convoluted thinking.....according to your formula (160K x 10 years = millionaire) then that also makes the school teacher at our local high school making 38K/yr for the last 26 years a millionaire too!   Wow!  millionaire school teachers!     My neighbor is an IT genius,  started out of college making 60k per year... he has been at it now for 15 years......I guess you consider him almost a millionaire  :o      Nurses at hospitals are in the 60-70k range,   so after the nurse has worked 15 years they are millionaires too????
 
By the way your figures of 160K per year for FP docs is AFTER expenses but BEFORE taxes..... they don't clear 160k.   
 
What kind of personal bug in your backside do you have against doctors???
I'm just tryin' to keep everything in balance, Woodrow. You do more work than you got to, so it's my obligation to do less. (Gus McCrae)

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2012, 07:23:14 AM »
Needles, $160,000 a year doesn't make one a MULTI MILLIONARE.  They also have house payments, car payments, college payments for their kids.  They pay higher income tax.  Remember 50% of Americans don't pay income tax.  My wife and I have made over $100,000 a year until the crash, but we are NOT  MULTIMILLIONARES.  My BIL an SIL are both college professors making combines about $160,000 and are approaching 60 but they ARE NOT multimillionares.  That is all relative.  They never saved for their kids college, and have very little saved for retirement.  They spent theres traveling all their life. 
 
The top 1% of Americans make more than $342,000 a year.  Below that they are the 99%.  Doesn't sound like much to me.  Most doctors are well off, but not multi millionares.  They put forth the effort to spend 12 years of their life in school preparing for it.  They deserve to make that much with that much effort. 
 
Don't be jealous of hard work and success. 
 
The LIE has been told by the libs to start class warfare, blame the rich, blame Bush, blame the republicans, blame everyone but themselves. 
 
Classic Communism or Nazism at work headed for government takeover of the healthcare, major industry, utilities, raw materials, etc. 
 
No one is perfect, not even republicans, but constantly blaming or creating a problem where there was none, to offer a government solution.   
 
Also, doctors and my dentist have told me that the mountain of paperwork, computerizing every single thing they tell a patient, and telling them what procedure to use or not use, what meds they can use or not use, takes away theirs and their patients decision making and the government tells you what you can or cannot do.  IT IS IN THE BILL, READ IT.
 
 

Offline Needles

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2012, 01:02:31 PM »
Y'all realize that all of the "expenses" you're listing are business expenses or other tax write-offs in one form or other?

Tobster, your uncle sounds like a real doctor--- they are few and far between.

And we are talking about family practice MDs--- the lowest paid docs in the country, if you don't count acupuncturists (Who, nowadays,  are usually at least as qualified to treat illness as Nurse Practitioners [There are 180,000 NPs!], who do most  family practice encounters anyway.) There are about 100,000 family practice MDs in the country. There are 550,000 specialists in the country, most of whom make at least twice as much as family practice MDs, and some specialties make over 5 times as much. So, yeah, MOST MDs ARE millionaires, and I don't care if you know of one that is not.
Jim

"There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, the night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."  Patrick Rothfuss

Offline jimster

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2012, 01:35:52 PM »
Why in the hell would anyone go through all those years of medical school, pay for all those degrees, work so hard, work so many hours, and make what "Needles" wants you to make??  To hell with people like that...I go through all that, 160K is NOT enough to hang out at hospitals around the clock, be on call around the clock,  or have the skill to crack the chest on someone and rebuild their insides while sweating your butt off for hours at a time. God help you if the person dies...even if he was a basket case to begin with. 
To hell with what other people want a doctor to make or anyone that works that hard. You pay them low, you'll get what you pay for...like anything else in life.  I personally have no problem with millionares...I'd like to get there someday(I may not make it) and don't need people like Needles holding me back.  I hope two of my sons are millionares someday, they worked hard and sacrificed a lot while other people were partying and complaining.  They might make it...but people like Needles will want what they worked hard for...that's the way it always is.  Lot's of people coveting someone elses hard work and money.  If they can't get it through legislation, they try to get it through law suits. 
I may be able to save enough money to be a millionare someday, skrimpin and savin most of my life, still getting up at 4:00 am every morning at 56 and working all day,  I suppose these same butt heads want a piece of me too after I get there...guess that's life these days. Eveyone wants a piece of your effort.  You put in the work, they sit there and covet and complain. 

Offline CannonKrazy

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2012, 01:39:53 PM »
When it comes to my health and well being, how much a doctor earns is the least of my concern. I would much rather a doctor be a millionair, happy and content than someone just getting by with a chip on his shoulder because some politician dictates how much he can make.
Doctors spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on education and years of their time before they begin to make a good living. Seems to me if they invest the time and energy they have earned the right to make millions.
 
 
To me doctors are much like mechanics. When you car breaks down you want it repaired by a competent person, someone who will do the job right.
Or you can go get the guy to peice it back together with string and bailing wire just because he is cheaper.
My health is more important than money.

Offline Needles

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2012, 04:29:16 PM »
Jimster and Cannon: I hate to break it to you , but trauma surgeons ARE millionaires. And what makes you think I want what they have? I'm good. On the other hand, they'll save your life--- you'll still be breathing, though you may need someone else to wipe your chin and change your diapers... Meanwhile, those docs will take everything you have. 62% of all bankruptcies in this country are due to medical bills. It only takes ONE--- disease, car wreck, other accident--- for any one member of your family. And you all seem to want to go back to the insurance companies being able to say you have to pay that yourselves. And since when is $160,000 a year not enough to live on for these poor overworked docs? Nobody MADE them practice medicine. They knew the deal from the get-go. I'm obviously not going to change your minds--- just putting some things, like the ridiculous title of this thread, in perspective.
Jim

"There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, the night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man."  Patrick Rothfuss

Offline NWBear

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2012, 05:18:46 PM »
Having worked as recently as this year in a medical clinic, doing all the insurance and billing, I will say this; without INSURANCE (company/worker paid) and LOTS of GOVERNMENT type insurance Medicare, Medicade, military both active and retired - we would be out of business in a matter of weeks.  I could count on one hand the people who paid out of pocket or PAID directly for their insurance... Doctors are already at the mercy of Insurance/Government for payments.  We had a surgeon where I live quit and take another job because a local "blogger" complanined he was making over $400,000 per year with little post education experience and not from a "top school".  He did not own the practice and was the third doctor there, but he left and we are the worse for it, but he did not leave because he could not afford to live here where the average household income is less than $50,000...
I would be curious to know how many people here PAY INDEPENDENTLY for insurance on the open market - not employer sponsered, Medicare "Advantage", COBRA, spouses insurance etc.  At my age of 61 I would need to be homeless (not pay for my house) to afford health insurance on the open market.   I am thankful for the VA, they have saved my life (probably twice this year).
Finally by all metrics we are not getting the "Best" health care in the first world - not longevity, not infant mortality etc.  We are however #1 in at least one catagory, we spend the MOST per capita in the world on Health Care.     

Offline johnpaulh

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2012, 05:17:12 AM »
My friend, you didn't even take into consideration the miscellaneous overhead, i.e. consumables (syringes, bandages, suture packs etc.....) drugs administered in the office (injectables) etc....all of which are paid for up front, not after the insurance pays.

Also, a provider may get $75 for an Office Visit if the patient has no insurance and is paying cash, otherwise the provider will bill, and get paid "reasonable and customary rate" which is always based on CMS fee schedules (CMS = Centers for Medicare Services....a.k.a. Uncle Sam)  So he can bill $75, but will get approx $32 per OV.  Your estimate for Med school is a bit low too....pretty close for a D.O., but if the provider goes after an M.D. you are looking at around double your high end (around 350-400k by the time they're all done)  Pursue a specialty such as cardiology or neurology and the costs become astronomical.  Which is why a heart transplant costs so much....or a prostate exam.....

So in a way, the reason doctors NEED to earn more, and thus charge more etc....is not because of an inherent flaw in the health care payor system, but the cost of education driving the necessity for greater profits.  That fact also drives fraud, which is most rampant in government programs such as Medicare and Medicaid. 

I work for a Healthcare payor in their fraud department, and the idea of a government run global healthcare system gives me the heebie jeebies with regards to the schemers that will come out of the woodwork to steal and pillage while the bugs get worked out. 

I love having job security but this will become a nightmare.  I can barely afford to support those already sucking on the government tit now, and 30-40 million more....makes my arse hurt just thinking about it.





Doctors go to school and intern for 10-12 years.  Most with no or limited income.  Even if they had a scholorship for school, most had to take out student loans to pay for living expenses during that time.  So they don't start practice until they are around 30 and have a mountain of student debt, like maybe $100-200 thousand for student loans.  They get about $75 per patient visit.  So they visit 10 patients an hour.  That is $750.  That MIGHT be  $30,000 a week.  say for about 40 weeks out of a year.  That is $1,200,000 a year.  Now, they have to have a receptionist ($30,000 a year with matching social security and their own insurance).  A nurse ($75,000 a year with ss and benefits).  Power bills could run $500 a month ($6,000 a year).  Rent on office space ($20,000) a year.  Payments on medical equipment (who knows what this is)  (say $20,000 a year.  Malpractice insurance ($30,000 a year.  Student loan payment $20,000 a year.  After all this he might make a million.  However, he will not see 10 patients an hour, 5-6 will probably be the limit as he has to make hospital visits to patients in the hospital.  So he might not make but $600,000 a year.  After all the above expenses, he might clear $400,000.  Taxes and self employed social security will be about $150,000.  So he makes $250,000 a year.  He is providing at least 2 jobs directly, and maybe 1-2 more if a hospital is involved.  Now he might be a millionare if he saves some of the $250,000, after he buys a house, car, etc.  He might save $50,000 a year out of the $250,000 so it would take him 20 years to have a million saved, maybe less if he invests wisely.  Don't give me the crap that ALL doctors are millionares.  It takes a lot of hard work and a large enough patient base to acquire that. 
 
This class warefare stuff is nothing but socialist propaganda.  Anyone once could become a millionare in America with hard work, dicipline, savings, etc. 
 
Even if you got paid minimum wage and saved 10% for about 30 years at minimum wage, you could be a millionare.  A single person doing this might not be able to, but a married couple saving 10% both working could retire as millionares.  Problem is with young people today, no dicipline.  They want instant gratification.
 
Also read some interesting statistics several years back.  About 75% of people in hospitals before old age, have problems associated with their lifestyles; cancer due to smoking, obesity causing heart disease, strokes, and diabetes, drug use, unprotected sex, alcohol abuse, etc.  Most of this if people took care of themselves, would bring health care costs down.  People do not take walks, or do outside activities, even kids don't play outside like they once did.  TV and video games have made couch potatoes out of people, or excessive partying, drinking, sex and drugs. 
 
Now if they put a TV tax after say 3 hours a day or 20 hours a week (that is being liberal with the time), video game tax, legalise and tax drugs, increase alcohol tax, tax snack food and soft drinks, maybe the could raise enough money to help cover some health care costs.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2012, 09:36:57 AM »
Specialists who you say are millionares, have to go to school an additional 2-4 years, so they obviously should get paid more. 
 
Should someone with a trade school degree get paid more than a high school graduate?
 
Should someone with a college degree get paid more than a trade school graduate?
 
Should someone with a masters get paid more than a college graduate?
 
Should someone with a phd get paid more than a masters degree?
 
If you don't believe this, and that they should get paid the same as a janitor or garbage collector, then you sir are a socialist/communist. 
 
America is or was the land of opportunity, to be whatever you wanted to be, to achieve whatever you wanted to achieve.  All of course with hard work, dicipline, yes you should get paid more and charge more for your services.  Is it worth it?  Is your life worth it?  Doctors diserve what the earn, they worked and do work hard for it.  While they are still in school, most of us were already earning our money.  Most of us had a 10 year start on moving up the ladder, before they even got started.  But, I say they are worth it. 
 
My BIL was one of the top 6 Chemists to graduate in the US when he did (from Brown Univ).  He, back in the 70's after 8 years of school was offered a 6 figure job with Dupont.  He turned it down to teach and do research as a college professor.  He makes now, less than 6 figures after 30 years.  Not very smart, but he could be making 1/4 million a year now IF he went with a chemical company.  He is a liberal and didn't want to actually work for a company.  That is his decision. 

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: 83% drs have considered leaving their practice over obamacare.
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2012, 01:07:35 PM »


How about this approach? Sort of back to the future! I read about more and more doctors opting for this.
http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2008/07/09/doctors-who-don’t-take-insurance-what-does-it-mean-for-patients/
Freedom Of Speech.....Once we lose it, every other freedom will follow.