Author Topic: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy  (Read 1898 times)

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Offline michael30.06

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S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« on: July 10, 2012, 09:02:19 PM »
First off to set the scene.
This will be a H&R Handi Rifle in S&W .500 I will feed it only cast for deer and pigs to a max of 150m.
Mostly from a stand and over bait.
I want to shoot subsonic, but I will not be using a suppressor Not legal here.
So I plan on using heavy for caliber cast bullets and no scope.
At what point do I stop getting benefit of penetration by increasing bullet weight.
Has anyone tried spitzer shaped bullets to allow greater weight in the S&W .500?
Most of the internet information is based on revolver use not the H&R, just how long a bullet can I squeeze into this chamber without engaging the lands?
Thoughts?

Offline Jason F

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 11:03:20 PM »
Lee 440gc shot great in mine loaded into the rifling
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Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 03:02:52 AM »
Thanks Jason,
I was thinking I would have to go 6 or 700gn.
I'm sure I even heard of a 900gn bullet, but that may have been internet !@#$%^&

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 03:25:17 AM »
I've shot 700gr Ranger Rick's in my 500S&W Handi(before it became a 499HE) they worked fine up to ~1400fps, unfortunately he no longer makes them.   :( The bullet in the round at the left is seated to reach the lands, the small bullet on the right is a 440gr CP for comparison.

As for being too heavy, even at 500fps the 700gr bullet is very stabile in the 1:18¾" twist barrel.

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Offline tykempster

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 04:27:27 AM »
Might as well shoot the 700s  :D

Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 10:35:05 AM »
Thankyou Quickdtoo, that is just the kind of information I was hoping for.
Since Ranger rick no longer makes those bullets, what would people recommend?
Please keep in mind I am in Far northern Australia, so it may be expensive to ship in large quantities of heavy lead bullets.
I used to cast 165gn for my Springfield 1903 30.06, but that would have been more than 10 years ago, I think.
I will dig around for an Australian supplier of large lead bullets.

Offline twoshooter

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 04:39:26 PM »
I can vouch for the accuracy of the Lee 440's in my handi. 12 gr of Unique should be about 950 fps and shoot 1 1/2 or less @ 75 yards. They went through a large whitetail and 16" into the ground at 92 yards from a tree stand. Like shooting a 410. I standardized finally on 20 gr of Blue Dot which stayed under 1 1/4 inch at the 75 yard mark, a bit more zip, I am guessing about 1250+ fps. My go to brush gun.
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Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 06:07:39 PM »
Thanks this is great news, I have been hunting the internet and it is very hard to find a bullet mold larger than the Lee 440.
For a moment I thought that CBE here in Australia showed a .500 mold throwing a 975 pill. But it's for the 50 BMG that would be 512. So a no go. Also that would have been too heavy to stabalise I'm fairly sure.
But if you are getting penetration like that with the 440 that may be perfect for me. I may even be able to buy some precast bullets here in australia.
Thanks again

Offline keith44

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 07:52:43 PM »
umm let me throw a dab of water on the fire here


In my 45-70 (yeah yeah not the .500) and my .44 Mag (again I know not the .500) I have only loaded cast bullets.  With both of these rounds, loading aprox 1,200 fps in .44 and aprox 1,600 fps in the .45-70 I have shot length wise through deer (as in more than one)  The .44 will do it 99% of the time with 300 and 325 grain hard cast bullets.  The .45-70 will do it everytime with 405 grain hard cast running anything over 1,400 fps.  Do not expect a heavier yet slower bullet to not punch through the animal.  The 440 may not over penetrate if kept around 900 fps, but side on shots I would expect an exit hole.


I have in the past ended up tagging two deer from the same bullet, something to watch for.
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Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 08:10:27 PM »
I am sorry if I've been unclear.
Over penetration is no problem an exit hole bleeds better than an entry wound.
Here both pigs and wait for it, ALL DEER are declared Pests. There is no limit and no tagging system.
But I only shoot at what I intend to eat, or give to someone else to eat.
The question of penetration was on my mind because I was worried that I would have to shoot a huge bullet to achieve both entry and exit. This just showed My lack of experience with sub sonics other than 165gn 30 cal.
I'm drawn to the S&W 500 due to the cross section size of the round and the wound it makes without any expansion.
 

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 08:45:35 PM »
Once again, this is not based on experience with the 500, but rather a little with .44 Mag and a lot with .45 Colt, but you said that all the information you found was relevant to revolvers but not your handi-rifle.  Due to the velocities you are talking about, I believe that the revolver information is EXACTLY what you can expect out of your rifle also since you are talking about the same bullet moving at the same velocity, and the only difference being the launch platform.  Assuming I am thinking correctly, and based on experience with .44 and .45, I would personally stay away from spitzer type bullets as you mentioned, which tend to zip the target animal with less effect than the same weight or even a slightly lighter flat nosed bullet would.  With your stated 150yd range limitation, I really dont think the flat nose will have any detrimental effect on accuracy or trajectory, but will give you a huge advantage as to terminal effect on target.  I am not trying to sell you on the LEE mould, but unless things are very different in your area, I would think that buying the mould and casting your own, especially since you said you used to cast years ago, would be easier and cheaper than having to buy bullets all the time.  So I would say forget buying bullets, and buy a flat-nosed (wide meplat) type mould of your chosen weight, brand, etc, and go that route.  And even if the .50 BMG mould you found is what you choose, there are many different size sizing dies available, so you can always size it down a bit if it casts a little too big for your needs.  Happy hunting, and let us decide what you end up doing and how it works?  I love my .44s and especially my .45s, but the 500 just seems like a bigger and for this application a better hammer, so I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2012, 12:14:19 AM »
Hi,
 
Jason F shot a hog yesterday with a 500 grain .512 LFN @ approx. 1050 fps and got a pass through in the shoulder.  This was from a 50-70 not a 500 S&W but not that much difference.  IIRC, the bullet was 1/2 WW lead and 1/2 pure lead and it didn't expand much, which I guess comes with the territory when the velocity is low.  The pig didn't seem to care the bullet didn't expand so apparently a 1/2" hole is plenty good. ;)
 
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Offline simplicity

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2012, 12:16:30 AM »
Here is a company I was looking into to get a 700gr mold.
http://www.mountainmolds.com/
Here is a company that sells 700gr loads you could talk with them on buying the bullets alone or seeing what mold they use.
http://www.ballisticsupply.net/Default.aspx?tabid=252105

Offline keith44

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2012, 11:26:04 AM »
Ok I did misunderstand.  Since you do not need to be concerned about taking two or more with a single shot, yes you are on the right track.  Careful about facing shots(head to tail trajectory) the spinal column offers little resistance, but the hydraulic effect will blow bone fragments into the best meats (back straps and tenderloins). 
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Offline gcrank1

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2012, 09:52:11 AM »
I know there is a chap in Austrailia that makes moulds (maybe CBE?) and has done so for guys here in the USA for a reasonable fee. Those who have them, cherish them.
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Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2012, 10:24:36 AM »
Simplicity thanks for the link to Ballistic supply.
I thought they would beable to sell me a few bullets maybe of different weights.
That way I could play around with a few loads to see what suits me best. Unfortunately they have shut down for now.

Offline JimP.

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2012, 05:31:01 PM »
I designed a bullet that weighs 475 gr for my 500 SW Handi rifle, the mould was made by accuratemolds.com and was very reasonable in price. The mold number is 50-500B. 30 grs of AA 5744 gives around 1250 fps in my rifle. Seat the bullet till the grease grove is covered and taper crimp. Check out this bullet, you might just like it. JimP.

Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2012, 07:54:18 PM »
Thanks for that information about accurate molds.
Less than $80 Australian for a custom mold, I'm impressed

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2012, 10:31:28 PM »
Once again, this is not based on experience with the 500, but rather a little with .44 Mag and a lot with .45 Colt, but you said that all the information you found was relevant to revolvers but not your handi-rifle.  Due to the velocities you are talking about, I believe that the revolver information is EXACTLY what you can expect out of your rifle also since you are talking about the same bullet moving at the same velocity, and the only difference being the launch platform.  Assuming I am thinking correctly, and based on experience with .44 and .45, I would personally stay away from spitzer type bullets as you mentioned, which tend to zip the target animal with less effect than the same weight or even a slightly lighter flat nosed bullet would.  With your stated 150yd range limitation, I really dont think the flat nose will have any detrimental effect on accuracy or trajectory, but will give you a huge advantage as to terminal effect on target.  I am not trying to sell you on the LEE mould, but unless things are very different in your area, I would think that buying the mould and casting your own, especially since you said you used to cast years ago, would be easier and cheaper than having to buy bullets all the time.  So I would say forget buying bullets, and buy a flat-nosed (wide meplat) type mould of your chosen weight, brand, etc, and go that route.  And even if the .50 BMG mould you found is what you choose, there are many different size sizing dies available, so you can always size it down a bit if it casts a little too big for your needs.  Happy hunting, and let us decide what you end up doing and how it works?  I love my .44s and especially my .45s, but the 500 just seems like a bigger and for this application a better hammer, so I'm sure you will be happy with it.


+1


Flat, heavy cast bullets are the way to go if you want to stay subsonic. A 600 grain bullet at 900 fps is going to penatrate better than a 400 grain bullet traveling at 900 fps. As said, a pointy bullet will past through with minimal damage. A large diameter (+.40) flat nosed bullet traveling at or near the speed of sound hits like a sledge hammer and will push through for a long ways, we are talking feet of penatration, not inches of penatration.


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Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2012, 11:34:48 PM »
Yes I hope so.
At the moment I am awaiting a reply from accurate molds to see if they are willing to ship to Australia.
The way things have been going here as far as weapons paperwork is concerned I will have the mold and have cast hundreds of bullets by the time I am issued a permit to acquire.
I have heard recently of delays of up to 6 months.

Offline keith44

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2012, 04:51:24 AM »
Ok michael30.06, you have now made two statements that have my curiosity piqued.  First Deer are pests where you are located, and secondly you are waiting for a permit to acquire a firearm.  So I must ask where are you located??
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2012, 05:01:19 AM »
He's in Queensland, Australia.  ;)

Tim

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Yes I hope so.
At the moment I am awaiting a reply from accurate molds to see if they are willing to ship to Australia.
The way things have been going here as far as weapons paperwork is concerned I will have the mold and have cast hundreds of bullets by the time I am issued a permit to acquire.
I have heard recently of delays of up to 6 months.
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Offline keith44

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2012, 01:42:30 PM »
WELL DUH  :-[ :-[

Thanks Tim
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Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2012, 12:06:11 AM »
Well one step further on. The gun is at my local dealer. The importer is obviously challenged because he forgot to include the 100 pieces of reloadable brass that I ordered.
Still no rush I have not received my permit to acquire yet.
But the gun is here!

Offline michael30.06

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2012, 12:07:30 AM »
Also Avvurate molds will happily ship to me even over here.
I see a return to casting in my future.

Offline petemi

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Re: S&W .500 How heavy is too heavy
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2012, 12:54:27 AM »
Six months for a permit application :o :o ??? ??? ??? .  Oh yeah, I forgot.  Australia was a penal colony, so I'm sure all you residents are suspect ::) ::) ::)  Man, what bureaucratic B.S. in an age of instant communication.

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