Author Topic: Please help with Cannon ID and worry (Read 1682 times)

dejahnke · « **on:** July 16, 2012, 02:54:32 AM »

Hello All,

I was hoping to get some help... This replica bronze cannon has been in our family for a few generations.
I am trying to find out what it is a replica of, the family story is civil war era.
Also while I was cleaning the bore I noticed some water leaking out. I tried to shine a light through from both sides with no luck.
We never file projectiles usually a 1\3 pound charge of FFG equiv. Pyrodex.
Should we be concerned with the "weak spot" where the water leaked? And if so, what could be done to restore the integrity of the cannon.

Thanks ahead of time

Dan

P.s ill get pic\video posted as soon as i figure out how....

BoomLover · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:24:48 AM »

While we are waiting for the pic/vid...Welcome to the Forum, dejahnke! Can't offer much advice without a description of your cannon, but ever consider using Black Powder instead of Pyrodex? Either way, we should wait for your pics...

Double D · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:35:15 AM »

Quote from: dejahnke on July 16, 2012, 02:54:32 AM

Hello All,

I was hoping to get some help... This replica bronze cannon has been in our family for a few generations.
I am trying to find out what it is a replica of, the family story is civil war era.
Also while I was cleaning the bore I noticed some water leaking out. I tried to shine a light through from both sides with no luck.
We never file projectiles usually a 1\3 pound charge of FFG equiv. Pyrodex.
Should we be concerned with the "weak spot" where the water leaked? And if so, what could be done to restore the integrity of the cannon.

Thanks ahead of time

Dan

P.s ill get pic\video posted as soon as i figure out how....

Water leaking out? Where why? If you are putting water down the muzzle then there is only two places water should come out. Back out the muzzle and out the vent-the hole where you put the fuse.

I think we need to learn a lot more about this cannon before we condemn it. I am a bit curious how you could shine a light from both sides.

We need pictures to help you.

keith44 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2012, 04:39:03 AM »

I am curious...pictures please

dejahnke · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:03:49 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQd-AJkGxaY&feature=plcpNot a valid youtube URL

Double D · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:27:01 AM »

Show us where the water is leaking out?

dejahnke · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:36:00 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQd-AJkGxaY&feature=plcp

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2012, 05:36:26 AM »

I felt like I should open this post with OMG in giant letters

I just enlarged the picture and look at the barrel and under no circumstances should it ever be fired. It is a very poorly made casting and has very clearly seen inclusions. It is dangerous. Fill the bore with cement and use ir for a lawn ornament

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2012, 06:13:12 AM »

Dejahnke,

Just for added emphasis let me reiterate what Double D has said: Do not ever fire that barrel again, put it up and keep it as a decoration, or as a reminder of the great good luck you've had with it not already failing catastrophically.

Doc Brown. · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2012, 07:33:22 AM »

Is Pyrodex that weak that this barrel didn't explode from a 1/3 pound equivalent? Better to see if the barrel has any value as a historical artifact before you fill with cement. It might be worth something to a history type establishment. The carriage looks to be from the late 21st century and not sure how you got that back to this time period.

subdjoe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:05:28 AM »

My initial reaction, without the photos, was, "DO NOT fire it again!" Water leaking out (and I took leaking to mean not out the vent or the muzzle, but through cracks) is a BAD THING (see Twilight Zone "It's a Good Day" episode). Seeing the photos, especially the enlargement, reinforces that idea. Spend some money on a real cannon. It will be less expensive in the long run than the law suits when the one you have explodes.

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:05:33 AM »

It doesn't look old or bronze either. It looks like cast steel, probably wrong. Put a magnet on it

I'm not sure what it is a replica of, but it isn't safe.

I would guess late 20th century casting

subdjoe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:08:22 AM »

Quote from: Double D on July 16, 2012, 08:05:33 AM

It doesn't look old or bronze either. It looks like cast steel, probably wrong. Put a magnet on it

I'm not sure what it is a replica of, but it isn't safe.

I would guess late 20th century casting

A magnet won't stick to pot metal.

You noticed the air bubbles in the left (viewers right) trunnion? And that is just what we see.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:32:26 AM »

Quote from: subdjoe on July 16, 2012, 08:08:22 AM

Quote from: Double D on July 16, 2012, 08:05:33 AM
It doesn't look old or bronze either. It looks like cast steel, probably wrong. Put a magnet on it

I'm not sure what it is a replica of, but it isn't safe.

I would guess late 20th century casting

A magnet won't stick to pot metal.

You noticed the air bubbles in the left (viewers right) trunnion? And that is just what we see.

Also see the top of the muzzle swell in the second photo; there's a good deal of porosity in this casting. This reminds me of accounts of early bronze cannons that had to be rejected and recycled because of what they referred to as sponginess in the metal. Come to think of it, water under pressure was originally used to find this kind of fault in early cast bronze artillery.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:43:17 AM »

Welcome to the board dejanhnke. I can only repeat the cautions above. Plug the bore and turn it into a decorator.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2012, 10:10:52 AM »

Welcome to the forum, and sorry for it to be under such conditions.......
I think whoever cast this didn't have their metal hot enough this is showing the same type of porosity that the mortar Colonial Willamsburg tried casting some years back best to spike the touch hole and plug the bore..... I don't think there is enough meat on this thing (wall thickness) to bore it out & sleeve it.....

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2012, 10:18:29 AM »

Mike and I agree with those who say not to fire your cannon again as it could kill or maim you or others attending the event. Please don't fill it with concrete until you allow us to make you an offer on it. Here is why we are interested: Medieval lore has it that the ancient artillerists used cats to search for cracks within the bore of a cannon which had seen regular use during a campaign. They would fill the suspect cannon bore with water, wait a while for it to fill any cracks and then pour it out and dry sponge. Next they would introduce a curious, thirsty cat to the muzzle and let it go in. Their logic was this, if the cat came out after just a few moments their cannon was good for more use. If the cat lingered, they figured it had found a crack with water seeping out and was lapping it up, thus "proving" that the gun was dangerously defective. It would only be fired by long fuse with the artillerymen shielded by an earthen traverse until the end of that campaign, after which it would be condemned.

Just think about it, my son's little cat, Luna and your tube could be teaching artillery history at gunshows for many years. If you don't want to sell it, start mixing concrete.

Tracy and Mike

subdjoe · « **Reply #17 on:** July 16, 2012, 10:21:19 AM »

Dejahnke, we aren't trying to beat you up or insult you. Really. We just happen to be a bit passionate about our hobby, and a bit fanatical about safety. We would rather be adamant about you not using something that strikes us as unsafe, and best to err on the side of caution, than to read about you in the news if/when that cannon blows up.

dejahnke · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2012, 10:50:26 AM »

No worries Guys....

Your much more gentle than some other forum initiations.

You all have pretty much confirmed my uncle and I's feeling once the water issue showed its self.
Honestly it had been so dirty/patina covered it wasn't until I brought it home from the family lake cottage, to rebuild the carriage, that I decided to
clean the bore.

I manage a sporting goods store here in N. Wisconsin so the safety issue is not lost on me by any means.

If we were talking hypotheticals, are there any options to make it safe to shoot BLANKS, which is all we ever use it for. It normally gets shot a handful of times
over the 4 th of July. And just to be more specific we were using 1\3 of a 1# jug of FFG equivalent powder and a few dish rags for compression.

Thanks again for all the info so far.

-Dan

KABAR2 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2012, 11:20:10 AM »

About the only way to make is safe would be to sleeve it down to a smaller caliber a steel sleeve in 1018 would be fine, what bore size is it now? the new caliber would be dependant on that.....

Double D · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2012, 11:39:39 AM »

Quote from: dockholidaiy on July 16, 2012, 07:33:22 AM

Is Pyrodex that weak that this barrel didn't explode from a 1/3 pound equivalent? Better to see if the barrel has any value as a historical artifact before you fill with cement. It might be worth something to a history type establishment. The carriage looks to be from the late 21st century and not sure how you got that back to this time period.

He just got lucky that's all.

dejahnke · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2012, 11:45:03 AM »

Quote from: KABAR2 on July 16, 2012, 11:20:10 AM

About the only way to make is safe would be to sleeve it down to a smaller caliber a steel sleeve in 1018 would be fine, what bore size is it now? the new caliber would be dependant on that.....

It's a 2 3\4" bore now about 38" deep

keith44 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2012, 01:33:19 PM »

This may be work hardened in addition to being porous, pressing a sleeve in place could cause the fractures to open and the barrel structure to rapidly disassemble. I am sorry, but even sleeved I would not fire it.

******* Added******

and I am someone who shoots a damacus barreled shotgun on occasion

Double D · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2012, 02:02:41 PM »

Sleeves properly done are not pressed in place, they are slip fit and glued.

I don't think this gun even qualifies for sleeving. Even though most proper sleeves would have the strength to hold the pressure, they still flex. Sooner or later I think pieces and parts are going to start falling of this tube.

This one is scary.

GGaskill · « **Reply #24 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:16:12 PM »

What you would basically have to do is build a new cannon within the existing shell. It should make contact with the shell only at the ends where you wouldn't see much expansion. It wouldn't have to be much smaller than the existing bore but you want air between the liner and the shell except at the extreme ends, and even there, you could mount with silicone caulk for a compressible anchor.

You would be limited to about 7/8" bore size for a safe liner which you might find unsatisfying in action compared to its previous incarnation but at least it would be safe. You would also have to include a vent liner to conduct the fuse or fire from the outside to the inside since there would be a gap between the old bore and the new barrel.

JeffG · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2012, 08:57:02 AM »

Quote

Fill the bore with cement and use ir for a lawn ornament

+1