Compact 9 mm's

[keith44]

Although updated and re-designed a few times there is one company that to my knowledge had no issues with early examples of one gun they manufactured.  Ruger single six revolvers, the first ones, to my knowledge, had zero issues.  They were all hand made and tested 100% before being released for sale.  This level of quality control is gone now with batch samples being tested instead of every gun.

[Spirithawk]

Although updated and re-designed a few times there is one company that to my knowledge had no issues with early examples of one gun they manufactured.  Ruger single six revolvers, the first ones, to my knowledge, had zero issues.  They were all hand made and tested 100% before being released for sale.  This level of quality control is gone now with batch samples being tested instead of every gun.

I agree. Why I said I like old Rugers not new ones. In the mad rush to get products out there they all tend to get ahead of themselve's these days. To me though, it's the company that admits and quickly fixes any issues that stands out.

 Mike and Swamp ask why anyone would by an inexpensive firearm. Fair question. I ask, why would anyone pay more and get less? Just as fair a question.

Pretty don't win gun fights! I don't know anyone, who when needing to pull their handgun in a pinch, told their assailent...." Wait, just look at how great the bluing is. Man, don't it have pretty grips? Wanna hold it and see how solid it feels? Go ahead, squeeze a round off and feel that trigger pull. Gee, if that don't convince you to give up, as I lay here dying, let me show you the sales reciept and how much it cost!" A couple in this debate might try that, not mentioning names, but good luck with that!  Think I'll just stick with a handgun that's always on me and goes bang everytime I pull the trigger!
 

[Empty Quiver]

Pride of ownership. Appreciation of fine craftsmanship. Hand fitted parts, complications. These features all have a value to some folks, whether or not they add to the functionality of the end product.
 
Rolex watches are no more accurate than my cell phone as far as keeping time. They are handsome and represent a time when craftsmanship mattered.
 
Kel Tec pistols are good enough for what they are. But let's not crap one another, if they were all that, they would be as common as Glock. They would always be found on the short list of military contractors, they are not. They may well be the best new handgun that $250 can buy, and that ain't a bad thing. If it works or can be made to work reliably who cares. I certainly am not going to stand in front of one banking on a failure.
 
Being as how this is the interwebs, rude behaviour is somehow expected. Boorish behaviour is championed as honesty.     

[Spirithawk]

Pride of ownership. Appreciation of fine craftsmanship. Hand fitted parts, complications. These features all have a value to some folks, whether or not they add to the functionality of the end product.
 
Rolex watches are no more accurate than my cell phone as far as keeping time. They are handsome and represent a time when craftsmanship mattered.
 
Kel Tec pistols are good enough for what they are. But let's not crap one another, if they were all that, they would be as common as Glock. They would always be found on the short list of military contractors, they are not. They may well be the best new handgun that $250 can buy, and that ain't a bad thing. If it works or can be made to work reliably who cares. I certainly am not going to stand in front of one banking on a failure.
 
Being as how this is the interwebs, rude behaviour is somehow expected. Boorish behaviour is championed as honesty. 

Fair enough, well put, all I've been trying to say. Might add, Kel Tec is a fairly new and growing company and one whom most agree has come up with many original ideas and inovations. Law Enforcement is getting on their band wagon, I know many who cary them as backups, so give the military and Kel Tec time.  Not saying it will happen, but saying it surely is possible.
 
[ Pride of ownership. Appreciation of fine craftsmanship. Hand fitted parts, complications. These features all have a value to some folks, whether or not they add to the functionality of the end product.]
 

Yep, people buy guns for differant reasons. Just been trying to get it across that if the reason fits the need then it's a good reason and a good buy. I buy my firearms for hunting and self defense. If I can do those things, and do them well, all at a decent price I'm perfectly happy and cork sniffers be danged.
I'll add this though, when pretty and price outweigh the funtionability then those two things are pretty meaningless for anything but something you wanna just look at and that's what a whole bunch of folks end up with. Obvious by tons of upset high dollar gun owners complaints.

[Swampman]

The top of the slide missing does make them fit in your pocket better.

[Spirithawk]

The top of the slide missing does make them fit in your pocket better.

The one and ONLY model you speak of has been addressed already and it's far from a pocket pistol or did you not look long enough to notice that? And when your Ruger doesn't go bang it will make a nice paper weight huh?    Gee see how easy the "My dad can beat your dad tripe is?"
 

 I like Kel Tec, you don't. Fine, I can accept that even if I think your reasoning is based on predjudice. I like Kel Tecs, as do a lot of folks, and that bugs you to no end. Guess which one of us could care less at this point?
 

 I think folks can decide for themselve's what they like and don't like and need neither of us to tell them. Wanna know the facts don't take my word nor Mike's, nor Swamps, nor Empty's, nor Keith's, ect., nor most of what you read anywhere whether good or bad. Almost all written opinions by so called experts are payed for with cash. Guess who they favor? Yep, those paying the cash. Many bad opinions are given by those that don't even know which end the bullet comes out and who are simply looking for attention for themselve's. The many You Tube videos are proof of that! Instead, talk to actual owners. People that have first hand knowledge gained over time. That's where the truth lays and I am perfectly fine with that. You still might hear good and bad but if you talk to enough people, borrow the firearm and try it out  yourself, then truth will emerge whether it's a good one or not.  That advice applies to all firearms no matter the make.
 
 
 

[Mike in Virginia]

I like the guitar analogy.  I think the same principle applies to banjos.  I bought my first one 40 years ago, a $99 import.  I didn't know how bad it sounded until I bought an American made $500 banjo.  Later in life I spent in the thousands for a new Deering.  Lordy what a difference in fit and finish and quality parts and sound.  Cheap stuff works if that's all you want out of any particular item.  Quality stuff just works better.  I reckon a Kel-Tec is okay for folks that just want a defense gun that works.  If you don't care about looks at all and you're not concern about 50 yard accuracy, and the extra $100-$150 will break your bank account, then I will concede you ought to have a Kel-Tec.  Looking at it like that, my statement that I didn't understand why someone would buy one was a tad askew.   

[Spirithawk]

I like the guitar analogy.  I think the same principle applies to banjos.  I bought my first one 40 years ago, a $99 import.  I didn't know how bad it sounded until I bought an American made $500 banjo.  Later in life I spent in the thousands for a new Deering.  Lordy what a difference in fit and finish and quality parts and sound.  Cheap stuff works if that's all you want out of any particular item.  Quality stuff just works better.  I reckon a Kel-Tec is okay for folks that just want a defense gun that works.  If you don't care about looks at all and you're not concern about 50 yard accuracy, and the extra $100-$150 will break your bank account, then I will concede you ought to have a Kel-Tec.  Looking at it like that, my statement that I didn't understand why someone would buy one was a tad askew.

Well dang Mike, now I'm impressed. At least you're trying to see other peoples views. Mike, as I've said, before buying my PF-9 I looked at an aweful lot of firearms. In fact, I did more than just look. A LOT MORE. I was actually wanting a Milineum Pro, untill I held my son-in-law's. Thing felt like a pregnant brich in my hand. So much for wanting one. Money had little to do with it but yes I'll admit it was a factor. The very few guns that would do what I wanted and needed as well as the PF-9 were way, and I do mean WAY, more expensive and even when I concidered one, and checked it out, it had it's own set of problems in every case. Ammo finicky and a host of design failures. I found that in almost every case. Now, assuming you're a reasonable thinking man, would you shell out $300 on a gun, that funtion wise filled all your needs, or spend several hundred and possibly a grand or more for a firearm that looks like it might work but who's reputation is a bit sketchy or who fills a couple needs but not all? It don't matter one dang whit how well a firearm is made, looks, or costs if it doesn't fill your needs when you need it does it? I don't gamble with my money. I banked on Kel Tec and untill they give me reason not to like them I will . My PF-9 actualy has a few feature I like, wanted, and needed that the much higher priced guns didn't.  Don't mean I don't like some higher priced firearms. Just that the tool should fit the job. I've some expensive rifles but they were chosen for what they have proven what they can and will do, not for price or what they should do because of how they are made.
 
Mike, wanna have some real fun. Go on any guitar forum and say an Epiphone Les Paul equals a Gibson Les Paul in sound and playability. Then sit back and watch the fireworks. Of course the Gibson is much better made but ya wanna know what? I've known more than a few pro players that sold their Gibsons and kept their Epiphones. Know why? Because some Epiphones actualy do play and sound as good or better than some Gibsons. Again, price has absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
Both are Les Pauls. Both are Epiphones. Both are outstanding. The Ebony Standard so much so I've had pro players offer to trade me Gibson Les Pauls for it. I've been playing since I was 14 and in a few days I'll turn 59. Guitars and guns are a passion and I've bought, sold and traded many in pursuit of the ones worth owning. I'll keep my Epi Les Pauls and I'll keep my Kel Tecs for those reasons and dollar value be danged!
My babies and yes I love em! ;


PS, I bought this very rare Univox back in 1967 when it was new. At the time my friends razzed me to no end because it wasn't a Martin, Gibson, or Fender. Know what? Untill they played it!     Were I now to even whisper I was thinking of selling it there'd be a line clear across two states of guys begging to be the one to own it because they've played it and fell madly in love. Again, proof price and brand ain't everything.


 


 
 

[Swampman]

As J.D. Jones use to say.  Good clean fresh oats cost money.  If you're willing to accept oats that have already been through the horse they come a little cheaper.

[Spirithawk]

As J.D. Jones use to say.  Good clean fresh oats cost money.  If you're willing to accept oats that have already been through the horse they come a little cheaper.

Can't have an original thought Swamp? Resorting to obscure quotes does nothing to actually prove a point now does it? What, no opinions from actualy using and owning a product? Gotta borrow others and then think a few opinions out weigh thousands?   Maybe  in your world but not in mine.  Your grasping at straws Swamp and it's getting obvious. Your borrowed quote makes it pretty evident you think nothing is worth having unless it comes with a high price tag and little or nothing to do with actual function. You ignore problems with your own choices to point out problems others have, or just may have, and get your kicks from doing so. Man the life boats Swamp, your ship is sinking.
 
I may not be right in all I've said, only the Creator is perfect, but at least it's me talking and I try to back my own words with evidence from personal experience  that anyone can easily check me on as to it's validity. Not evidence from just one or two people with an axe to grind because they don't like a company.   I prefer info from actual folks who own and use a product, and thusly should know better than anyone, giving true weight to their opinions. If there's no sense in that then why bother at all? Just buy Cracker Jacks and hope for a decent prize. LOL
 
Want to know if Ke Tec is worth a look? Go on KTOG or Kel Tec Range and read the posts from those that own them. They are honest folks, guys like you and me, and you'll read where problems were found and when. You'll also read how they were addressed, what caused them, and what was done to fix them. Just like most any other firearm forum. Yes you'll see those with axes to grind but it doesn't take much see who they are and that they do so simply for attention. That will tell you if you're interested in looking at them as to a purchase. If  so, then find someone that owns one. Pick their brain and ask if you can fire it. That's the smart thing to do with any firearm.

[Swampman]

A famous gun writer use to say "Always buy the best you can afford, and you'll never be dissapointed". I have heeded this advice, and more often than not, he's been right.
 
I just can't see using the cheapest thing you can buy to save your life or those of your loved ones.  There are some good decent quality guns in the $400.00 range.  Consider those.....

[Spirithawk]

A famous gun writer use to say "Always buy the best you can afford, and you'll never be dissapointed". I have heeded this advice, and more often than not, he's been right.
 
I just can't see using the cheapest thing you can buy to save your life or those of your loved ones.  There are some good decent quality guns in the $400.00 range.  Consider those.....

Hmmm, again with price is everything, but wait. Nothing under $400 dollars worth owning? I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but don't you own a Ruger LCP? Sure seems I read that on here somewhere. Hmmmm, new they can be had for around $350 and have had much the same early problems as Kel Tec,  also about the price of a new PF-9, so that surely couldn't be true, surely I must be mistaken Swamp. Were I not that would make you a hypocrite wouldn't it?
 
As to your quote, again with the need for someone elses words, I'll answer with this. I know of many who bought mighty expensive firearms, only to discover pretty, price, seemingly well made apearance (Key word SEEMINGLY) and reputation made long ago rather than recent means squat when their new toys showed more problems than a Saturday Night Special that's been abused! They make pretty paper weights though.   I'd love to continue debating with you but YAWWWWNNNNNNNN!

[Swampman]

This has hardly been a debate.   The LC9 has had zero problems and is $400.00 out the door.  It is safe to shoot and reliable.....safe being the key word.

[Empty Quiver]

This has hardly been a debate.   The LC9 has had zero problems and is $400.00 out the door.  It is safe to shoot and reliable.....safe being the key word.

You paid too much. Better to save for something you can depend on. You have one LC9 that has worked... so far.
 
A tarted up Kel Tec, whatever.

[Swampman]

No I have a bunch of pocket guns.  That's the going price here and everywhere else.  It's safe to shoot, no big chunks blowing out of the slide.

[Spirithawk]

No I have a bunch of pocket guns.  That's the going price here and everywhere else.  It's safe to shoot, no big chunks blowing out of the slide.

Guess I was thinking of the LCP. Told  ya  I wasn't sure. Tell ya what though, since you insist my PF-9 will blow up  well  they've been out for a  few years now, I've owned mine a bit over 3, so show me a pic Swamp, by all means give me a link to an article that we all here can share, one that shows a blown up PF-9! The P3AT has been out a while too and the P-32 and P-11 even longer so pics of them blown up should be flooding the net right? You've stated so so by all means please lets see one, lets read about it and if indeed one exists lets read why it happened and if it's the gun's fault or the owner. I'm not asking for anything unreasonable. Just that you back up your claim. I've no problem backing up mine and have done so by telling folks exactly where to go to read the pros and cons from actual owners. Heck, if asked I'll post the links to make it easy. I've made it clear  as I possibly can, no one has to take my word for anything they can look for themselve's.

[keith44]

Pride of ownership. Appreciation of fine craftsmanship. Hand fitted parts, complications. These features all have a value to some folks, whether or not they add to the functionality of the end product.
 
Rolex watches are no more accurate than my cell phone as far as keeping time. They are handsome and represent a time when craftsmanship mattered.
 

I take offense at this! If craftsmanship mattered not your house would have burned down long ago.  No semi-auto would function, and there would be not well running engines.  Craftsmanship is in short supply due to consumer mis-conceptions, but very much a requirement for anything that needs to work everytime.

[Spirithawk]

I think what Empty was trying to say is that often "simple" out performs "elaborate". Myself? Of course I think craftmanship matters but there are certainly differant levels of craftmanship aren't there?  Does the craftmanship just refer to apearance or extend to performance too? If the craftmanship is not good throughout then it may prove meaningless to something you need to use. Case in point, how many times have you bought something based on apearance to later find out it was junk? Be honest, it happens to all of us way too often. Craftmanship should equal quallity. My offense comes from those that seem to think that quallity is measured in dollars and outside apearance. There are still a few companies that offer mighty good products at prices most everyone can afford and it puzzles me how some folks seem to hate them for it. Quallity in some products is like quallity in some people. It's not always obvious at a glance, may not jump out at you just looking at the surface and you may have to look at what's inside and observe how a person acts or a product works to see the true quallity, the quallity that counts! Many a time I've heard a person refer to something saying," It didn't cost much and it aint pretty but man does it ever get the job done and done well! Wouldn't trade it for anything at any price!"

[keith44]

I am of the opinion that "pretty is as pretty does" which is darn little.  Quality in firearms is measured in fit finish and function.  Function is easy to determine, but it is the finish that draws the eye when at the gun counter.  The "fit" is where the craftsman shines and this fitting of parts allows a good finish, and great functioning...all else is fluff.

[Dixie Dude]

Kind of like comparing an AK-47 to an M-16.  Both work.  One is crude craftsmanship, one more precision.  Both work.  AK works on simplicity and sloppy tolerances.  M-16 is more accurate, but needs cleaning more often.  Like someone said, sometimes simple is cheaper and just as good. 

[Empty Quiver]

Pride of ownership. Appreciation of fine craftsmanship. Hand fitted parts, complications. These features all have a value to some folks, whether or not they add to the functionality of the end product.
 
Rolex watches are no more accurate than my cell phone as far as keeping time. They are handsome and represent a time when craftsmanship mattered.
 

I take offense at this! If craftsmanship mattered not your house would have burned down long ago.  No semi-auto would function, and there would be not well running engines.  Craftsmanship is in short supply due to consumer mis-conceptions, but very much a requirement for anything that needs to work everytime.

This is what I believe he meant.   A Morton building while being a fine building should not be compared to a Catholic Cathedral. Both keep the rain from running down the Cardinals neck during mass, the similarities stop about right there though.
 
 Your comparing pole barns here. They are both pole barns in a world that includes cathedrals. Guess what, when the roof leaks on either one it needs repaired. But a repaired cathedral is still a lot nicer than a repaired pole barn.
 
I am happy to pay a premium for the fit and finish, the style and engineering that goes into SIGs, Heckler & Koch, Colts, S&W, and Beretta firearms. I can also appreciate Glock, Ruger, KelTec, Springfield XD, and Taurus, just as I appreciate a pole barn. The fine old hip roof barns our great grandparents built lasted for generations and worked every day, worked hard too.
 
Times and peoples perception of quality and value change. Countless thousand pole barns go up each year, some tarted up as churches. There are still beautiful hip roof barns being built of wood paint shingles and hand labor. To deny the beauty and function is foolish. Yes, both will suffer leaking roofs, will it be worth fixing the roof on the pole barn?

[Spirithawk]

Kind of like comparing an AK-47 to an M-16.  Both work.  One is crude craftsmanship, one more precision.  Both work.  AK works on simplicity and sloppy tolerances.  M-16 is more accurate, but needs cleaning more often.  Like someone said, sometimes simple is cheaper and just as good.

Exactly and, while I agree with Keith, if you ask most people what finish means in regard to firearms they'll tell you it's the surface apearance as in pretty. Nice bluing, pleasant apearance, nice looking grips. I've sold some mighty nice looking guns, apearance wise the craftmanship was great but function wise in I found them to be unreliable, inaccurate, finicky to ammo or all the above.
 
Well put Empty.
 
As one guy recently told me. I bought a Kimber. Payed over a grand for it. Finicky as heck and jammed constantly. A high dollar piece of junk. No, not all Kimbers may be but mine certainly was! Got rid of it and I now own a PF-9. Why? Because it funtions well with all ammo I've fed it, it's been very reliable, and if I should need to replace it at some point, I'd rather spend another $300 than another grand + on something that has already failed me miserably!

[Swampman]

I'm not concerned with finish, I'm concerned about safety.

[Spirithawk]

I'm not concerned with finish, I'm concerned about safety.

Still waiting for you to show me why a P-11, PF-9, P3AT and a P-32 aren't safe. Got news for ya Swamp, your just saying they aren't don't make it so without proof. You've yet to show any. Sure is kinda funny, I've owned two Kel Tecs, my son owns two, my grandson owns one and I've many friends that own one or more and ya know what? We are all quite happy with them and none have blown up. Kinda makes a guy wonder about your intensions in bashing them.
You boast the Ruger LC-9 is superior and problem free? Maybe in your world but others see things differant. From various forums;
*Several LC9 owners have had front site issues!
 

*I recently purchased an LC9 for my Mom as a ccw. First 200 rounds or so were flawless, and we were very happy with the pistols performance, even with the long trigger. Unfortunately, after the last range session the pistol has become very unreliable. Almost every time you try to chamber a round it nose dives into the feed ramp. The problem occurs with both HP and ball ammo.
 

*I've already sent my LC9 back to Ruger and it is currently in the queue to be worked on.

The problem I was having is the gun absolutely would not group. I tried several brands of ammo and various weights. The gun was consistently low with all the 115 ammo I fed it. Groups were slightly better with 124 grain ammo. 147 grain conical hollow points sort of performed well part of the time.

The gun shot to the right out of the box. I corrected this with a rear sight adjustment. From there on nothing is consistent. The groupings are all over the paper with some really wild ones on occasion. 4"-8" variances at random.
 

 
*Got one, shot it, can get used to the mag safety & the loaded chamber indicator, but the trigger pull! toooo looooong & heavy, hope someone in the after market spring business makes something more user friendly. (Gee wasn't that a complaint made here about Kel Tecs?)
 

*I got my LC9 back from Ruger with no explanation so after leaving several messages over a period of days, a Ruger representative admitted that the problem was most likely this problem…It seems that there have been many problems just like mine with other guns and they say it’s the type of ammunition that makes the difference. If you use ammunition with soft primers you are likely to have this problem because small pieces of soft primer come off and get embedded in the firing pin chamber causing it to misfire…I did seen that in both Lc9′s that I owned…I was told that if you use ammo such as Federal or CCI with hard primers you are less likely to have the problem…I haven’t shot my LC9 since it was returned but I will soon…I wish Ruger would just recall the things and fix them because sooner or later someone will have their ass on the line and their LC9 may let them down. I just hope they don’t wait until tragedy strikes before they take steps to make the LC9 fit to wear the Ruger name.
 
*I see this same nonsense on other gun forums as well, especially the one that makes the most expensive "copy" of the PF-9! I actually traded in my third Ruger LC-9 for my PF-9 and at the time knowing how Kel-tec's can be, I planned on doing the F&B right after putting 2 boxes (100 rounds) of Magtec through it. Those first 100 rounds all went bang! I can't say the same for my three Ruger LC-9's (had to send it back three times and got a new replacement each time) but the fact remains that I now have over 2200 rds through my PF-9 and it feels & functions much smoother than it did when it was new!
 

That's all from guys who actualy own them not guys paid to write reviews. Only took seconds to find and I didn't have to dig for them.  Need I go on Swamp? I can if you insist!  Guys I'm not trying to bash Ruger, unlike Swamp obviously wanting to bash Kel Tec, I'm simply pointing out that his logic is more than just a bit one sided and just because you say something, such as his saying, "The LC9 has had zero problems" in an atempt to make his choice superior to that of others just ain't enough to make it true! I could say what I realy think of such a tact but I'm trying to be polite.
 

[Mike in Virginia]

"Pretty" is important to those who love guns.  I'm in that category.  If it does not have nice lines and close fittin tolerances and a smooth blemish free surface, I move on to something else.  That's just me.  I appreciate quality.  An AK-47 is not a quality piece of work, although it works very well.  I hope I never get to the place that I appreciate function to the point nothing else matters.  Please name me a well finished firearm that is better than one finely finished.  Quality is easy to see. 

[Spirithawk]

If that were true we wouldn't be debating it would we?

"Pretty" is important to those who love guns.  I'm in that category.  If it does not have nice lines and close fittin tolerances and a smooth blemish free surface, I move on to something else.  That's just me.  I appreciate quality.  An AK-47 is not a quality piece of work, although it works very well.  I hope I never get to the place that I appreciate function to the point nothing else matters.  Please name me a well finished firearm that is better than one finely finished.  Quality is easy to see.

Important to all who love guns? If that were true we wouldn't be debating it would we? So much for that logic! People have differant value systoms but many times their's is just as good as your's though it may seem far differant. If I want a piece of art I'll buy a piece of art and both my son and I have. Those have for the most part all been sold or traded. Why? Because who want's a high dollar piece of art to do a job it might take a beast to do? Who wants to carry an expensive piece of art through brush, mud, rain, snow, on ATVs and through all the things a working firearm is put through cause it sure ain't gonna stay pretty will it? My firearms don't live out their lives in holsters, gun cabinets, nor safes. They get used and sometimes used hard. You see beauty in a gun that looks good, that's pretty, that you can feel good about showing off. I see beauty in a gun that performs when I need it to and one which I don't have to pamper to keep it looking good! Like the old saying, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Kinda like Empty said, ya don't build a pole barn to hold fancy church services nor do you build a cathedral to store hay. The product fitting the job trumps eye candy and has little to do with quallity as you define it as looks. I've seen some pretty well made pole barns that showed craftmenship in their making and to answer Empty's question, " Is the roof on the pole barn worth fixing?" just ask the farmer who has hay stored in it if it is.   

[Swampman]

There's no accounting for human error but LC9s aren't blowing up or the frames cracking.

[Spirithawk]

There's no accounting for human error but LC9s aren't blowing up or the frames cracking.

Well which is it Swamp? First you tell us the LC-9 is 100% perfect and now you say there's no accounting for human error when I prove you wrong. Maybe you're saying all the problems are the owners fault even though it's quite evident that's not the case? Had the complaints I posted been about Kel Tec I've no doubt you'd have raved they were all justified and not questioned one. Because you like Ruger and not Kel Tec ain't that right?  So Ruger's allowed mistakes but no body else? How come? As usual you avoid real answers to logical and fair questions. I asked, " show me proof of a PF-9, P-11, P3AT, P-32 blow up."  Know why you haven't? I do, it's because you can't can you? As to the LC-9 not having cracked frames, if it's contemperaries are prone to it then so is it likely to be because Ruger does not have the market on some super strong material. It's made out of the same stuff as Kel Tec, Taurus, Diamond, Glock, S&W, ect., ect. when it comes to Polymer pistols.! However, I'm not arogant enough to say stuff I can't prove. I'll leave that to you.

[Curtis]

Spirithawk, I direct this at you not to be argumentative but because you seem to be the person most informed about Kel Tec pistols in this thread.  Last year I was debating purchasing a pocket pistol and considered both the P3-AT and the LCP.  That urge has since passed.  During that time though, I did a lot of reading and was somewhat disturbed by the tutorials on the "fluff and buff" that was required on many P3-AT pistols.  Was that just the early ones or is this procedure still required of many pistols that leave the Kel Tec factory?
 
My first thought was that if it required "final finishing" by the customer, then it had left the factory incomplete.  This goes somewhat beyond the normal "break in" recommended by most manufacturers before completely trusting a defense arm.  Was I willing to do this final finishing to save the difference in price between it and the LCP?  What would be the resale value vs. the LCP because of the Ruger name, should I decide to part with it?  These were some of the questions rolling around my cranium at that time.  Did you do any "fluff and buff" on yours, or did you use them "as is" right out of the box.  What are your thoughts, please?
 
Thanks,
Curtis

[Swampman]

You haven't proven anything.  The LC9 is perfect....the goofs pulling the trigger (and their ammo) are not.