Author Topic: Compact 9 mm's  (Read 20256 times)

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #150 on: September 17, 2012, 12:43:28 PM »
You haven't proven anything.  The LC9 is perfect....the goofs pulling the trigger (and their ammo) are not.

Well gee Swamp, there ya go tripping all over yourself yet again. You telling me that Ruger admitting a problem to an owner is the owners fault? WHY?
Kel Tec has a problem with one model firearm, and you fabricate it as being all models. Yes a few blow ups happened, again, of one single model. Once I finally found the pics myself I admitted that. No problem in doing so, but I also found out by reading and not just looking at pics, that the blow ups were admitted to be due to too hot a particular brand of ammo! ( and it should be noted that in every Kel Tec manual it clearly states they will handle +P rounds in moderation but not continuous use. Kel Tec then beefed up that model to now handle it. Something they didn't really have to do!) It was admitted to by the very owners of the few that blew up that they used that one ammo yet bad ammo is an excuse for Ruger but no one else? Wanna tell us WHY Swamp? I know why, because you LIKE Ruger right? What, I supply evidence but prove nothing? You spout the same old line over and over and expect that to be taken as gospel?
 
I'm tired of trying to reason with a back peddling brick wall that brings nothing new to the table. They'll blow up! I say prove it...he doesn't. He can't but don't take my word, certainly don't take Swamps. I'll say one last time. Talk to people that own them. Talk to enough and the truth becomes obvious. Even if you've only read any of the posts just here on this site from those who own Kel Tec, including Mr. Graybeard himself who owns at least three I think and who's opinions I for one value, you'll be hard pressed to find a bad word said about them. THAT speaks for itself and Swamps repeating the same tired line, nor my trying to reason with him to no avail, hold near the weight! You can argue with that Swamp but you'll be talking to yourself!
One last Question for ya Swamp since you're fond of pics. This is my personal PF-9. I've owned it for 3 1/2 years. Carried it 24/7 from day one and continue to now. Here's both sides. So tell me wise guy, see any pieces missing?


 

Offline Swampman

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #151 on: September 17, 2012, 12:54:26 PM »
No, it wasn't the ammo.....it was just Keltec's inferior materials and poor quality.  As I mentioned the LC9 has given no trouble that can't be traced to the owner's ineptness.  I'm not bashing anything, I'm just pointing out the obivious.  I'm actually sorry that this is the case because Keltecs are cheap.  Everyone needs some cheap guns.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline WD45

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #152 on: September 17, 2012, 12:57:36 PM »
You are not the first and wont be the last that I have heard trashing Glocks. What I meant to get across is you don't hear any one trashing all the companies making copies of the 1911 in the last half of my post

Offline Swampman

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #153 on: September 17, 2012, 01:00:58 PM »
I love Glocks but there are a bunch of 1911 clones I wouldn't own.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #154 on: September 17, 2012, 01:20:12 PM »
No, it wasn't the ammo.....it was just Keltec's inferior materials and poor quality.  As I mentioned the LC9 has given no trouble that can't be traced to the owner's ineptness.  I'm not bashing anything, I'm just pointing out the obivious.  I'm actually sorry that this is the case because Keltecs are cheap.  Everyone needs some cheap guns.

 Bull, Bull and more Bull!  Do you honestly think folks can't read for themselve's? I just posted where Ruger admitted a problem with the LC9  to an owner, and there's plenty of reports out there, but like always you ignore what doesn't suit your agenda. A guy went through three Swamp, THREE and every one failed! if he was such a twit why did 3 Rugers fail and 1 Kel Tec work flawlessly? Come on Swamp WHY? Of course the owners must be lying or are all twits right Swamp? That's what you're saying anyways. Wanna bet they'd take some issue with that theory? As I asked in my other post, you can see the pics as can everybody so show me pieces missing from my PF- 9 Swamp, come on SHOW US ALL! Point them out to us cause I own it and I sure don't see anything missing!

Offline Swampman

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #155 on: September 17, 2012, 02:59:53 PM »
You just keep believing that you can get something for nothing.  I don't......I'll stick with a quality product......yes the owners are twits which is common now days.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #156 on: September 17, 2012, 03:56:28 PM »
You just keep believing that you can get something for nothing.  I don't......I'll stick with a quality product......yes the owners are twits which is common now days.

Gee Swamp, not that me nor anybody else needs your aproval, but we are quite happy with what we pay for. Maybe you think your money is more valuble than ours? Maybe you work harder for your's than everybody else? I've two Kel Tecs that have performed perfectly, with all kinds of ammo, in all kinds of conditions, through too many rounds to keep track of, over an extended period of time and which show absolutely no sign of doing anything but continuing to do so. I can say the same for 3 more my son and grandson own. You keep telling everyone they are faulty and I should ignore what I know to be true in favor of your ranting, but a blind man can see two things. 1) mine sure work just fine as does my son and grandson's 2) so do those of a great number of other Kel Tec owners some who are right here on Gray Beard. Guess you're more short sighted than a blind man Swamp. You see only what you want to see and truth be danged. But I guess I should be disapointed. I guess I should ignore how my own firearms perfom for me and bow to your insisting they will blow up. Even though you have not shown one shred of proof that they will......NOT ONE! You state your choice of firearm is superior because it's flawless though anyone who can ask a question or who can read can easily and quickly find out for themselve's that's far from the truth. Still you insist it's true because it cost more and because you say so. That argument is laughable! Why is it that if Ruger owners complain then they are twits but if someone complains about a Kel Tec they're preaching gospel? As to the Ruger owners with complaints being twits.....hmmmmm who would know a twit better than another twit?
 
You say I don't back my comments with fact? ( Guess  pics of my own gun in one piece mean nothing for some mysterious Swamp World logic)  I say I've supplied way more than you but how's this for you?

 Kel Tec PF-9.....The barrel is manufactured of AISA 4140 steel hardened to 48 RHC, and the slide is constructed of the same steel. The frame, which houses the trigger group, consists of a solid machined 7075-T56 aluminum billet.
 
Ruger LC9......all they'll say is barrel and slide alloy steel and won't go into more detail ( heck that could mean anything ), frame is glass filled plastic ( What? The LC9 has a plastic frame? A PLASTIC FRAME?  :o Dang Swamp that can't be true. I've no doubt you'll tell me Ruger made a misprint! )
Where's the superior materials you brag about Swamp? Hmmmmm? Where are they?
 

Wanna know something else? The only Kel Tec to blow up was the PMR-30 and so far, over 27,000 PMR-30s have been produced, and there have been about a dozen documented incidents of a case failure which resulted in damage to a PMR-30! And Swamp, Mr. Know It All, Mr. Ruger Uses Superior Materials, guess what failed? A small part made from glass filled polymer! Now where have I heard that being used? Oh yeah, that's exactly what Ruger uses for the LC-9's whole dang frame! Shoots the heck out of your Ruger uses superior materials don't it Swamp! And YES, read the dang reports, ammo is the suspected cause! Saying all that, 12 out of well over 27,000 and Kel Tec promptly replaced the part with metal so it could never happen again and it hasn't!

Tell ya what, if we're still around in another 3 1/2 years, and assuming you actualy shoot your pet LC9 if you can quit sitting and admiring it and the price on the sales reciept, tell us then how it held up. That's assuming it does or that it was worth keeping. Till then my PF-9 has 3 1/2 years more proof of holding up than your LC9 does right now! Of course by then my PF-9 will have doubled the use of your LC9 and I'm betting it will still be going strong and you'll still be telling me it's gonna blow up! ::)
 
 

 
 

Offline jcn59

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #157 on: September 17, 2012, 03:59:53 PM »
My PF9 is over 2 years old and it has all the parts.   Nothing "cheap" about it.  A rock-solid locked breach pistol!   It shoots to the POA every time, no laser needed.  My friend's plastic S&W .38 Special is off the sights by a foot at 15', and some would say that is the nature of a quality revolver.
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #158 on: September 17, 2012, 04:16:20 PM »
My PF9 is over 2 years old and it has all the parts.   Nothing "cheap" about it.  A rock-solid locked breach pistol!   It shoots to the POA every time, no laser needed.  My friend's plastic S&W .38 Special is off the sights by a foot at 15', and some would say that is the nature of a quality revolver.
Thank you jcn, but Swamp will just say we must be lying as our Kel Tecs are made so poorly surely they'd have blown up right out of the box first time we fired them!  ::) That's why all of us here who own them are missing fingers. I've only got eight and two thumbs how bout you jcn? I know Swamp will claim we were born with at least 15 fingers apiece and our inferior Kel Tecs blew the missing ones off! ROFL
 

Offline bluecow

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #159 on: September 17, 2012, 10:16:10 PM »
Spirithawk, seems to me that some are spinning you up for their own fun.  let it go.  not funny thanks friend.?  as for quality gun not comming apart, ive seen two M&P.40 that the rials came de?..un?..laminated from the frame.  duty guns that get fired a hole bunch on the range.  never held a kel-tec or a lc9 but i think the solo is about the sexiest handgun ive seen.  sexy...hummmm now that makes ya wonder dont it?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #160 on: September 18, 2012, 01:54:31 AM »
Why did this turn into a Kel-tec bashing ? I had one in 32 and got rid of it because it was a 32 not because it was bad ( note - My personal feeling was bigger was better , if cops don't tote it then it might not be a good choice in cal. )( by the way I understand some need the less powerful gun since they can't handle the recoil of larger cal. guns)  A friend had a Kel-tec in 9mm when they first came out and it seemed OK he shot IDPA with it and did about as well as he did with other guns. He got it because of moneyand it served him well until his death . Now I have been giving a LC-9 work out. It shoots as well as my friends 9 and carries fine even in a front pocket. It does not draw from that pocket as well as a J frame nore does it carry as well as a 12 oz 340 PD in that pocket for me. It does offer more bullets on tap a good thing along with faster reloading. I really don't know if Rugers are that much better. I got mine used at a good price . So far it has failed to feed with one shooter that limped wristed it , she now has an LC-9 and no longer shoots with a limp wrist .
 Someone mentioned that with a short bbl a revolver hits targets with less gusto , My LC-9 does the same thing . I shoot 357 mag in the 340 PD ( not alot at one range sesion ) and it hits the steel hard but not as hard as a longer bbl 357 mag.
 OK plastic is a compromise in gun making. It may have some qualities that stand out but it cut cost was a biggie. With a Kel-Tec it replaced all the cheap autos that people with less funds to spend had been forced to buy if they wanted a gun . It has sold well because it was not expensive and worked. Other gun builders saw a good market and have tried to get a piece of the action that's a good thing we get more options. Any gun model or brand can break and the more in service and the longer they are in service the more this will show up. One thing to consider is service life of the parts. And with a plastic gun there is less weight to calm down recoil so the gun parts see more stress maybe. So it might be good to have the parts inspected more often springs in particular. Ask around to see how many fellow shooters replace springs , some will ask why ?
 In the end if a gun is used to protect you the critter or person attacking will not be impressed by the gun its the bullet that really makes an impression  ;)  and that should be the biggest baddest one you can carry and launch.  :o
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #161 on: September 18, 2012, 11:23:39 AM »
Guys I know Swamp loves to bait. That's old news. But when he posts info I know to be wrong I'll call him on it and if I'm wrong I encourage someone to tell me but also to have the decency to provide proof. Just common courtesy....unless you're baiting. :) Heck, I've learned a bit myself from this bashing. Dug into it and actually the PMR-30 is realy a pretty interesting gun. Kel Tec took an old design that the maker never could get to work quite right and made it work using their own changes. First thing most reviews say is it's a novel design that works on a unique blow/back Lock Breech Systom. That is moving forward not backward. Yeah, they had a few issues. Farrrrr from the  many some would like you to believe though. Gee is that shocking when a new design first comes out? If it were there'd never be any new models. I'll give Kel Tec credit. When the problem was brought to their attention they fixed it and it hasn't happened since.Kudos to Kel Tec! Heck, I  say "Thanks Swamp!" I'm now interested in owning a Kel Tec model that I wasn't till you bashed it. :) My only complaint is that for what a couple here say are cheap guns, meaning dollar wise too, they must have some mighty expensive guns cause anyone who's tried to buy a PMR knows they aint cheap averaging $700! ;)

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #162 on: September 18, 2012, 11:50:15 AM »
I don't reckon this thread is going anywhere useful.  I think the two who are locked in combat over Kel-Tecs should meet somewhere and have a shootout.  Not at each other of course, but some kind of contest where the issue might be resolved.  I'm finally going to admit that I've never ownd or even seen a Kel-Tec in person, so I wouldn't want to shoot against Spirit.  He seems to know what he's talking about.   My Kel-Tec bashing was based on price and the pictures I've seen.  They just look cheap, plus they are made in Florida.  What the heck ever came out of Florida that was any good?   
 

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #163 on: September 18, 2012, 12:38:13 PM »
I don't reckon this thread is going anywhere useful.  I think the two who are locked in combat over Kel-Tecs should meet somewhere and have a shootout.  Not at each other of course, but some kind of contest where the issue might be resolved.  I'm finally going to admit that I've never ownd or even seen a Kel-Tec in person, so I wouldn't want to shoot against Spirit.  He seems to know what he's talking about.   My Kel-Tec bashing was based on price and the pictures I've seen.  They just look cheap, plus they are made in Florida.  What the heck ever came out of Florida that was any good?

Awww come on Mike, can't we shoot at each other? ROFL Hey at least you're being honest and willing to keep an open mind. The answer to the question you asked me is yes. :)  As to pretty, nope Kel Tec's aren't beauty queens. But they were never meant to be and that has nothing to do with cost. Attention to need and performance out weighed need for pretty. Snag free sights, reliability, not ammo finicky, compact enough anyone can conceal one, light enough everyone will enjoy carrying, accurate beyond normal self defense ranges, all things inportant to any conceal carry gun I want. Pretty comes pretty low on my list. :)

Offline Swampman

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #164 on: September 18, 2012, 01:21:14 PM »
Florida is a crap hole.  Hence the guns made here are well.....crap.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #165 on: September 18, 2012, 02:30:44 PM »
Florida is a crap hole.  Hence the guns made here are well.....crap.

One man's opinion and you're entitled to it even if it reeks of predjudice. :)   :-X  On to better things.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #166 on: September 18, 2012, 03:54:31 PM »
Just the facts on both counts.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #167 on: September 18, 2012, 04:56:12 PM »
Just the facts on both counts.

What facts you haven't shown any yet? Made up  fairy land facts ain't facts in the real world and predjudice stinks as just what it is. Keep ranting though. I think in doing so you've actualy made some new Kel Tec fans! Thanks!!!!! :) My apologies to everyone else, especialy the OP for getting his thread off track. Predjudism just gets under my skin no matter what or who it's directed at. Swamp's gone from bashing a pistol, to bashing a whole company, to bashing all companies who's products are not expensive, to bashing a whole state. Got a sugestion for you Swamp....EAT MORE FIBER. ;) I promise I'm done.  :-X

Offline keith44

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #168 on: September 18, 2012, 06:59:28 PM »
Florida is a crap hole.  Hence the guns made here are well.....crap.


Just the facts on both counts.


No this is opinion, facts are backed by evidence.  Proof is not offered, just words, weak words. 
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #169 on: September 19, 2012, 01:33:21 AM »
seems like a lot of fertilizer is being sold if Kel-Tec's are crap. I have offered before (Glock) that plastic guns may have a life based on material used . Time will tell not use in a short term. In the short term a plastic gun is a cost effective way to launch a bullet, A light weight gun to tote and somewhat resistant to the elements . That's facts ! I like the look and feel of a nice Browning HP or 1911. BUT a plastic gun makes more sense today. Its a Tool .
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #170 on: September 19, 2012, 03:22:39 AM »
Shootall I think makes allot of sense.  As much as I'd love to carry one of my HPs or one of my 1911s (even the LW commander), I'm deferring to my Ruger SR9 as it is plastic, lite and works.  I'll probably pick up an LC9 as well and semi-retire my SW3914 and various PPKSs, Kel-Tec is not allowed in MASS. 
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Offline keith44

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #171 on: September 19, 2012, 06:06:06 AM »
thank you SHOOTALL, and yes that is how facts are presented

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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #172 on: September 19, 2012, 06:17:42 AM »
These carbon composites can't be all bad.  Nasa is using carbon composites on the framing of the new Orion 6 man capsule they are building to replace the space shuttles.  They need strong lightweight materials.  Carbon composites are lighter than Aluminum or Titanium.  Of course they will have a heat shield on the bottom.  Don't know what it is made from.  Probably some type of lightweight ceramic like the tiles on the bottom of the space shuttle.  One of the 8" tiles were about a light as a feather.  Like grains instead of ounces.  Very heat resistant.  Of course the working parts, barrel and bolt on plastic guns are metal. 

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #173 on: September 19, 2012, 06:20:53 AM »
If you go back and read some of my old post on plastic guns or mouse guns you will note a change of attitude . Both have earned my respect in certian cases/roles . Most older gun nuts will have to accept them over time if they do as I have. I still have strong feelings about steel guns . If ever I was forced to have only one it would be hard to not go steel over plastic. But with time that may change , at some point a new plastic gun will have proven to last longer than I can expect to live .  ;D
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #174 on: September 19, 2012, 06:28:27 AM »
Shootall, that's exactly why I stand firm defending Kel Tec. When you've used something for over 3 years, and I have two differant models a PF-9 and a P-32, and both have performed flawlessly using a variety of ammo then I think they earned my respect. I've nothing against Ruger's LC9, but it's too new to tell how it will hold up and saying it's superior to another firearm is meanigless for lack of proven fact. Just common sense and I'm glad to finaly start seeing some in these posts. :)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #175 on: September 19, 2012, 06:32:59 AM »
Thing is most who buy any gun seldom shoot them like some of us. So why spend more money than needed ?
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Offline jcn59

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #176 on: September 19, 2012, 06:33:19 AM »
Plastic guns are often lighter than metal ones which is good for frequent "carry", not to mention corrosion resistance.   I have some and they are very servicable.  Durability needs time to determine, though, as Shootall says.  I have hundred year old steel guns that are as safe and dependable as the day they were made.  Raise your hand if you can say the same about your hundred year old plastic gun.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #177 on: September 19, 2012, 06:42:10 AM »
My concern comes from seeing two Glock mags split . Both were used police trade in mags and both steel lined . Some will blame the rough use by police but to me that is the test you should want. I don't know about Kel-Tec but the LC-9 has metal mags , is this because of other plastic mag failure ? or the need to thin them ? If you have a gun with defectice mags you really have nothing but a single shot that is hard to load .
 On the up beat the plastic gun holds up to pocket wear well. My 340 PD looks like it was draged behind the truck on a gravel road. The LC-9 shows little if any wear . And the LC-9 cost several hundreds of dollars less. It also holds mo bullets .
 Now when the LC-40 comes out ............................... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Offline jcn59

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #178 on: September 19, 2012, 06:50:33 AM »
The PF-9 & P3AT have steel magazines.   Actually, they are steel guns with plastic "trim" around the frame insert.
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Compact 9 mm's
« Reply #179 on: September 19, 2012, 08:43:53 AM »
Jcn, I don't expect I'll be around in another hundred years. Don't expect any of us will be. ;) I'll settle for my PF-9 and P-32 working as long as I need them. I'ved plenty of other, heirloom quallity, firearms to hand down. :) My brother-in-law once teased me about my large collection of arrowheads, flint knives and my passion for them. I told him,"  These are the weapons of my ancestors. Many look as good as the day they were first made and are still as usable. Can you show me a metal 8,000 year old gun or knife that you have?"  He now goes artifact hunting with me. ;) No, guns haven't been around that long but I think you get my point. Nothing lasts forever but the Earth and sky.  ;D