Old Army Bullets

[rodwha]

I recently acquired a 7 1/2" Ruger Old Army, and I would like to hunt with it. I have Pyrodex P and RS for it now, but will be using 777 to get the bullets moving. I'm hoping to achieve >45 Colt performance, and would like to use it out to 50 yds if me, my gun, and a load will make that possible (I feel 400+ ft/lbs out to distance ought to do it).


I don't cast, nor do I have a resizing/lubing setup, but am interested. For now I am looking for commercially available bullets/conicals. Preferably 200 grns or heavier, though 180 is certainly better than the 144 grn RB that I have! I have heard of, and will be ordering a small sample of Kaedo's 240 grn custom bullets soon.


I've heard that Lee's 220 grn conical mold said to make conicals for an Old Army are actually not designed with a rebated base to easily align in the chambers. Anyone know about this?

[FourBee]

Hello rodwha:  Pyrodex P is plenty of zip to get you out 75 yards with ease.  A little practice for accuracy, as with any handgun.  Why 75 yards?, because most replicas are made after the originals which the front sights are set for that distance already. 
777; I personally don't like for a revolver.  If you could find regular GOEX blackpowder, it will be all you'll ever want, and it'll keep, and keep.  The substitutes draw moisture.  Some sooner than others, and they'll turn to clods inside the container.  Besides that, they're messy. Some worse. 
Just load to specified requirements, that's what these guns were made for, and they're deadly accurate.
 
If you think you need more umph, then by all means go for it.  Hope you find the right combo.  It takes more time and trials though.

[FourBee]

Oops; I forgot.  You're also looking for commercial conicals.  Look up Dixie Gunworks.  They may have something in that line.  Excuse my slow responding Dial Up. 

[rodwha]

From Hogdgon's website 35 grn of 3F 777 and 40 grns of Pyrodex P give almost 1000 fps with a .457" RB and wad. That gives 318 ft/lbs at the muzzle, 275 at 25 yds, and 242 at 50 yds. My understanding is that Pyrodex roughly duplicates what BP will do, and that just doesn't seem enough. But I've seen people's responses claiming they get much higher velocities than what Hogdgon's states. And that would makes sense as 30 grns of Pyrodex P with Cream of Wheat, a wad, and a RB was recoiling more like a 45 ACP + P. I am aiming for 400 ft/lbs+.

[Hellgate]

The LEE conical bullet cast from their mold is rebated so it can align better when seated. My 1860 Army shoots the slightly smaller conical quite accurately.

[rodwha]

He claimed to use pure lead, but I hear that an overheated mold could be why it cast too large for him. He measured it at .456" all along it's length.


Maybe the machinist made a mistake on his mold... Who knows, but it seems odd that Lee would make the claim that it is designed for an Old Army yet doesn't work properly. The guy stated he's been casting for 30 years, so I don't want to say he doesn't know what he's doing .


He wrote a paper on it (copyrighted) and had pictures of the conicals before and after. They obviously did not seat straight.


Anyone who has 220 grn conicals (Lee) that would mind throwing calipers on the base for a measurement?

[hillbill]

i have the lee conical mold and tried the bullets in my roa.i was not happy with them as they did not shoot near as good as roundballs from the lee mold for the roa.the conicals were harder to load and i never did feel i got them in straight.they shot more of a pattern at 25 yrds where the round balls shot like a fine target pistol.

[Hellgate]

There are two sizes of LEE conical molds. The widest diameter for the 44 should be about .454 and the 45 cal for the ROA should be .457 on the widest driving band. If you cast them with harder than pure lead they will cast larger in diameter. Pure lead shrinks more. The molds are cut for pure lead.

[tacklebury]

http://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=dardas&Product_Code=45200RNFPBB1000&Category_Code=45RNFP
 
Inexpensive, accurate and easy to load in my ROA.    I use em with 35 gr. FFFg

[arcticap]

Which ones do you use, .452 or .453?

[Gatofeo]

What slackjaw told you that?
The Lee conical bullet is made in two diameters. As a result, it comes in two weights. Both have heels made to slip into the chamber.
The .450" Lee conical weighs 200 grs. when cast of pure lead, and is for Remington and Colt designs.
The .456" Lee conical weighs 220 grs. when cast of pure lead, and is for the Ruger Old Army. Some of the Walkers and Dragoons may have larger chamber mouths, and require this bullet for a tight fit.
The Lee conical bullet is designed with a bearing band slightly smaller than the ogive of the bullet. This means that, when seated in the chamber, the bearing band stops against the chamber mouth. The bullet diameter, just ahead of the bearing band, is even larger.
So, as you seat the bullet the bearing band provides some resistance as it's swaged into the chamber, then the bullet offers more resistance as its seated. In effect, this gives you two sealed bands, with a groove filled with grease between them.
The different sized bands (bearing band and bullet) help to align the bullet straight. The biggest problem that cap and ball shooters have, when using conicals, is keeping the bullet straight as it's pushed into the chamber. This is where the heel is invaluable.
Shooters new to this style of gun often think that they can use standard lead pistol bullets in their cap and ball, but without a heel to start the bullet straight into the chamber this is almost certainly impossible. Standard, plain-based bullets get cocked one way or the other during seating. The go down the rifled bore not quite point-on, and emerge spinning erratically, out of balance. Accuracy suffers.
Shooters need to remember that a bullet is essentially a toy top. If its rotation is the least bit off, the top wobbles. Bullets do the same thing, and accuracy suffers.
I've been shooting cap and ball revolvers since about 1970. The Lee is the most accurate conical bullet I've found. I've tried various designs: traditional, authentic, Buffalo, Taurus (back in the 1970s), Lyman, etc. The Lee tops all, but it's still not as accurate as the plain ol' lead ball.
Conical bullets are fun to play with, but they're much more work than a ball. I use them occasionally, but for convenience and accuracy nothing beats a proper-sized ball of soft lead.

[Fingers McGee]

Rodwha,
Check out Bottom Dealing Mike's videos on shooting ROAs with round ball, conical and Kaido slugs.  I think you'll find the information you want.
Here's the link to the Kaido/T7 test  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LP_dwo2nThA
 

[rodwha]

I received my 240 grn conicals from Kaido, along with a handful of his 255 grn versions as well. I haven't shot many of them as I'm still getting acquainted with this pistol. But they seem easy enough to load straight.


In this video, as I've seen with people's posts on forums, it's believed that Triple 7 needs to be reduced for safety, and that heavily crushed loads don't do well. Looking at Hogdgon's site it states a mild crush is needed when loading cartridges, but that a firm loading is needed for percussion weapons. I've emailed them twice asking for confirmation, but have not received a reply.


I've read of one guy with an Old Army and chrono claim to get fairly good results w/o erratic differences with heavy loads of T7 that are heavily compressed.


Kaido had recommended a few loads, one of which was 40 grns with the 240 grn bullet, but I ended up having to shave off the nose of the bullet with my knife. 35 grns worked well though. If there isn't a problem with heavy compression then 35 grns behind a 240 grn bullet ought to really be flying! If 30 grns behind a 225 grn conical can give 469 ft/lbs of energy and a 255 grn bullet pushed by 25 grns of T7 can give 479 ft/lbs I ought to be getting higher figures than those. Wish I had access to a chrono...


So I'm figuring when it comes time to work on a 25 yd hunting load I'll begin with 25 grns, a wad, and bullet, as less than full loads tend to be more accurate, and it ought to be similar to an old 45 Colt load.

[gcrank1]

25+ years ago I had a ROA and played with both RB and the Lee conicals, the RB was the best performer for me and, though I took it deer hunting I didnt get a shot. I had it loaded with as much 3F as possible behind a .457 RB and didnt feel underloaded for any shot 'I' would take with an open sighted handgun. A man's got to know his limitations, and I called mine as distance at about 30yds. for the woods I was in.