Can you fire 223rem Out of an 223ai?

[Libraryhound]

I am thinking about an 223 ai but wondered if I ran out of hand loads could I use regular 223 rem rounds? I ask because my friend and his dad use 30-30 win in their 30-30 ai if they run out of hand loads. Forgive my ignorance.
Libraryhound

[nomosendero]

Yes if it's the correct 223AI chamber and performed properly/ headspaced etc. by the gunsmith. Besides, you have to fireform 223 brass to the AI chamber.

[Catfish]

Absolutely. That is the way you form your AI cases.

[Libraryhound]

Thanks for the answers. I was reading about useing cream of wheat and a wax plug to fire form brass. So every time I saw someone say fire form brass I thought of the cream of wheat method. Your answers makes clear and simple. My friend with the 30-30ai never took the time to explain he was forming the brass. Wow how simple.
Thanks
Libraryhound

[iiranger]

"A.I."  stands for "Ackley Improved." Mr. P.O. (Parker) Ackley has a two volume set of books available, ebay sometimes, eabco.com when he can get them. Real short, Mr. Ackley was a trained engineer and when he began gunsmithing about 1930 he noticed how "tapered" many cases were. He observed that he could get a lot more powder capacity by reaming the chamber to a minimum taper and using a sharp shoulder. A .30/30 A.I. approaches the power of a .300 Savage. Like that. 7x57 mm Mauser. .303 British. .30/40 Krag. Improved the Krag rivals factory .300 H&H Magnum loads. .300 H&H was not loaded hot by the factories for use in hot parts of the world where pressure might be higher.

Properly done the "A.I." chamber is cut so that the factory round headspaces on the base of the neck, no longer on the shoulder which has been cut away, and you can fire any factory ammo suitable to the gun, proper caliber. You do lose some power that is used to expand the case into the larger chamber. And, with "A.I." dies you reload the case using more powder in this larger space for more power.

The explosion of new cartridges since WW II has made this a bit less popular. Higher costs for gun smithing don't help either. Interesting period in history. Not necessary anymore, but not totally obsolete. Luck Happy trails.

[Drilling Man]

  Keep in mind, just because you AI an chamber, it doesn't mean you will have big gains in performance!
 
  Cases like the 30-30 with LOT'S of body taper do have good velocity gains, but in cases like the .223, you aren't going to gain much, "if" you load to the "same pressures" the origional round was loaded to!
 
  DM

[crash87]

One of the upsides to the Improved chambers by Ackley, and then others, was to be able to get velocity gains on by "simply" fire forming in a improved chamber, and, being able to still utilize factory ammo in a pinch. It is interesting however, that as an shooter of Improved cartridges and factory for that matter, I have never run out of ammo, while hunting or otherwise. But it does make it easier to obtain your brass.
   Your wise and miserly to save your bullet money however utilising your breakfast of Cream of Wheat. My fireform load consists of 10 gr. of Bullseye, and enough COW to go 1/2 into the neck, then instead of wax I use a pc of tissue paper pressed down firmly. After firing it produces a perfectly formed case.
   As far as increase in performance, an outstanding, yes it does! The difference in "water capacity" is about 2.2 grains, which equates to about 7%. You should be able to increase your charge weights from published maximums for the standard 223 to about 1/2 to 1.5 grains, of course depending on powder used. So with that said;
  Yes I have a Rifle chambered in the 223 AI. (also a 257 roberts and a 338/06) Remington 700 VTR, it has a 22" barrel with the 1:9 twist triangle barrel and goofy muzzle break, to me all muzzle breaks are goofy. My rifle was rechambered by Wayne York of Oregunmsmithing. Wayne knows what he is doing, as it was done properly and headspaces so that I can fireform factory brass to AI with out excessive headspace prematurely stretching my cases.
Apples to Apples comparison utilizing the Sierra 65 gr SBT gameking bullet, Ramshot TAC powder, and Remington 7 1/2 primers, using the above parameters for a powder charge yielded an increase in velocity of 130 fps. I gained a bit more with the Hornady 55gr V-max but it was using 2 different powders, 1ea for the standard and AI, so more like apples to oranges.
In my opinion you cant go wrong with any AI chambering and yes, each cartridge is a test on its own as to what you may gain, and you will gain, something. Also by having that 40 degree shoulder your case trimmer, well, just sits there. Also, while any factory cartridge is good enough to take care of the business intended, one could argue that you really don't "need" an improved or wildcat cartridge. Then again alot of us really don't "need" anything, But it sure is nice to have the options!
Crash87
 
 
 

[mauser98us]

If your going to keep the same size case and do the work,a 222 Remington mag would perform better for the same money spent. 222 Rem mag cases are still fairly easy to obtain. Most Ackley AI improvements also required the barrel to be set back one thread according to Ackleys handbooks.This was according to him,so I don't know firsthand if it is really needed or just a gimmick by him to make a few extra bucks.

[crash87]

If your going to keep the same size case and do the work,a 222 Remington mag would perform better for the same money spent. 222 Rem mag cases are still fairly easy to obtain. Most Ackley AI improvements also required the barrel to be set back one thread according to Ackleys handbooks.This was according to him,so I don't know firsthand if it is really needed or just a gimmick by him to make a few extra bucks.

No gimmick's to make more bucks, it is what must be done. To just rechamber without setting the barrel back will null & void the advantage of fireforming factory ammo by just shooting it in the Ackley chamber. The shoulder on the A.I. chambering is "pushed forward slightly, hence 1 of the ways to to get more capacity. Turning the barrel in allows a "crush" fit of the factory round, there by producing positive headspace.
While I don't own or never have loaded for the 222 magnum, I do know the A.I. version does have more capacity, so performance would be increased, all things being equal, of course.
While you can still buy 222 magnum brass, it is no where near the availability or cost of the 223 Remington. Also case stretching is virtually eliminated, a big plus, and another advantage for the 223 A.I.
crash87

[roper]

I have 222 and 222AI also 223 and 223AI all are custom and I have pretty nice custom 222mag also 722 chamber for the 222mag.

I fireform AI shooting PD.  If you look at most reloading manual for the 223  start to max load are appr 2grs and velocity spread can be  200 to 300fps.  I'm not sure I'd waste the money rechambering an existing 223 to 223AI or 222mag and reason for that depending on how many rd fired you may never see the real gain.  I had the 223AI build used a 27" long bull barrel to take advantage of everything the 223AI offered from Velocity to Accuracy.  1/2 grain is big deal in 223 case capacity.