Not to hog hunt with a 45acp

[1911crazy]

Its on you tube a guy hits a hog 8 times with JHP's out of 9 shots and it finally drops.   I mentioned this before about using hollow points on thicker shin game.  You don't get the penetration i believe with the JHP's.    I think he could of done better with the 230gr FMJ's.

[45-70.gov]

copy and paste a lonk

[chefjeff]

Other calibers  are much better choices.

[drdougrx]

Doesn't surprise me at all.  I was on a hunt and there was a guy with 44mag lever action loaded with 180gr HPs.  He shot a 300lb-ish hog at 40 yards or so and made a bunch of divots in the chest gristle plate.  He did kill the hog but I bet he shot 5-6 times to do it.

[kynardsj]

45 ACP is an awsome caliber but not for thick skinned game like hogs. There are much better caliber and bullet choices for them in a pistol. Big bore + right bullet + accurate shot = Black Hog Down. I repeat we have a Black Hog Down.

[hardertr]

copy and paste a lonk

I assume he's talking about this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH5jUpckbj4


First off, the shooter and his buddies give "hunters" a bad name.  Secondly, I'm guessing he only scores 3 or 4 hits anywhere from the snout to the tail.

[kynardsj]

Just watched the video. That kind of stuff just pisses me off. I don't care what kind of game you hunt, use enough gun and be skilled enough with it to make a clean, humane kill.

[Mikey]

Maybe it should have been titled 'not to hunt hogs with a 45 acp and hollow points, or soft nosed slugs', or how not to hunt hogs with a 44 magnum and hollow points.  I have used 45s for backup and finishing shots on large hogs and have had heavy cast slugs penetrate through the skull from the acp.  Use the same bullet in the 45 Colt, at the same velocity, and it's a hog load.  The 45 acp moves too slowly for heavy (230 gn and +) cast slugs to expand, but when used as a 'solid' they work fine. 

[rickt300]

I fooled around with several handguns when I was snaring hogs. I used a 45 LC, a 22 rimfire early on and now use my 1911. The 230 gr. FMJ penetrates just fine, makes a good sized hole and it is easy to shoot again. I thought early on that killing a snared hog would be easy, turns out they often get in the shade and wait for you after they figure out they can't escape and they have 12 feet to play with. Add this to the fact that the best places to put your snares are often in pretty thick stuff.

[1911crazy]

He's lucky the hog didn't have a gun too.
I think its sad too watching run forest run trying to kill this hog.  This is more ammo for peta (people eating tasty animals)  to use against us.  I like one shot one kill its more ethical when hunting plus the animal deserves a quick clean kill.

[ole 5 hole group]

I fooled around with several handguns when I was snaring hogs. I used a 45 LC, a 22 rimfire early on and now use my 1911. The 230 gr. FMJ penetrates just fine, makes a good sized hole and it is easy to shoot again. I thought early on that killing a snared hog would be easy, turns out they often get in the shade and wait for you after they figure out they can't escape and they have 12 feet to play with. Add this to the fact that the best places to put your snares are often in pretty thick stuff.

You're spot on and I'm sure the 45 ACP will continue to serve you well.  I haven't taken a big hog with the 45 ACP but I would think the bonded 230 grain hollow points at around 950/1,000fps would perform much like the FMJ at 850fps.  I know they work very well on thin skinned game/varmints.  Have you ever handloaded and used the Gold Dot on a Hog?   
 

[Mikey]

Guys:  I would not use a hollow point or soft nose slug from a 45 acp on a hog, they are more likely to expand prematurely or skid off heavy bone structure.  Don't forget the thick grizzle plate on hogs - that will stop or deform a hollow point more than a hit on Godzilla would.  I prefer to use, as a result of experience, either a fmj-swc or a hard cast swc from the 45 acp for hogs.  Years ago I used to shoot Javelina with a 38 Super and found the results of hollow points or soft nosed slugs to be miserable, but if I loaded in a swc slug (which I could do with my 38 Super), it acted like a 357 slug and penetrated on through.  When I tried hunting/finishing hogs or Javelina with a 45 acp, I got the same results (quickly deformed non penetrating) but switching to cast swc slugs in the 45 made it a much more effective caliber for hogs.  FMJ-rn lsugs work just fine for finishers. HTH.

[ole 5 hole group]

 
Totally agree Mikey, but the bonded bullets are a different cat.  Seems like in testing they hold anywhere from 85% to 100% of their weight upon expansion and then folding the pedals back (without losing them) upon penetrating bone or other hard material.  They punch right through deer and act like the Hornady XTP's as far as penetration but will hold their weight better.
 
Just wondering if anyone has used the Gold Dots on hogs.  The Golden Sabers are another excellent bonded bullet but you can't purchase them as components - they will sell the brass golden sabers, which are also excellent but they're not bonded.
 
I've got a nice load with a 260 grain Beartooth bullet using VV N350 powder that chugs along at 1,003fps.  You can push it a little more but there's really no need to, as it'll handle whatever needs handling.
 

[keith44]

This thread points out how poorly terminal ballistics are understood by the average guy with a gun.  External ballistics are fairly well understood, and internal ballistics knowledge is gaining ground, but what happens once a bullet impacts hits game (or other flesh target) is still not well understood outside of defensive shootings.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_ballistics


Hollow points expand at a given rate within a certain velocity range.  If the velocity is too low at impact (not at the muzzle) the bullet will not expand.  Too high of a velocity and the bullet comes apart and does not penetrate as well as desired. 


A bullet intended to be used against people (except military application where the Geneva Convention requires non-expanding bullets) is designed to rapidly expand and limit penetration to prevent shooting through and endangering innocent persons.


A bullet designed for Deer hunting also rapidly expands, but also tends to penetrate very deeply within the correct velocity range.  African Game bullets expand more slowly (if at all) and penetrate very deeply.


To hog hunt with a .45 acp a bullet designed to penetrate more than expand is what I would select.  Something like a 255 grain SWC like offered by Buffalo Bore


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214


or a similar handload using SWC instead of RNFP

[Mike in Virginia]

Yep, I would favor a hard cast heavy bullet from a revolver.  Lots of animals been taken with auto pistols, but we can't say they are the best choice.  They just ain't. 

[ole 5 hole group]

 I’m not sure if Keith44 is referring to me or not, as not understanding terminal ballistics.  I think I understand what my bullets do once they contact an animal, as I’ve examined a few in my day.  I’ve seen bullets fail miserably due to poor choice for the application, while others have performed as hoped – I thought this was knowledge gained by experience but again, I may not be as knowledgably as most here.

When Virginia Mike suggests the pistol just ain’t the best choice, I think that is subjective, as the bottom feeder is no different than a revolver – each has their weak & strong points – but when it comes to killing power, they are the same if using the same bullet at the same velocity.

It appears to me that a large portion of the handgun community think of the 1911 (and other bottom feeders) only as self-defense weapons against other humans.  The 1911 is a bit better than the SAA Colt & its clones and will keep up with the 44 mag & 45 Colt to a point and that point being in the neighborhood of a 265/270 grain bullet zipping along at 1,150fps.  That particular load has taken a lot of game in the USA from various revolvers and the 1911 and Glock 21’s seem to be able to keep up to that level taking deer, bear, elk etc. but once you enter into heavier weights and velocity, the typical bottom feeder is no longer in the game.

The bonded bullets available for revolvers & pistols are a great choice for thin skinned game and should work very well on heavier animals such as pigs – I was just looking for someone who has used them on hogs to give us his opinion.  Hard cast for lack of a better term is well suited for handguns needing penetration from any angle and has been a standby for generations.

The 1911 and Glock 21 are great choices – the term “best” is left to individual preferences but they are a choice to be considered by the handgun hunter if your State Laws will permit it – that is the real fly in the ointment.           

[keith44]

No, ole 5 hole group, I was not pointing at anyone in particular.  You tube, and wally world are full of people who have no clue how a bullet is supposed to work once it reaches the target.  So far those I encounter on GBO boards either are here to learn, or have something intelligent to share.  The point I was trying to make is that most easily grasp external ballistics, fewer (excluding experienced handloaders) grasp internal ballistics, and fewer yet, as this discussion points out (displayed on you tube), have even a basic grasp of terminal ballistics.

[SharonAnne]

I saw a video showing bullet penetration in ballistic gelatin. While all of the hollow point bullets stopped in less than 12 inches the Buffalo Bore 255gr. Hard Cast - Flat Point blasted through 2-12" blocks placed end to end.  As has been discussed, bullet choice must match the intended chore.
 
 Hogs are known to have a hard gristle 'plate' over the thorax.  It seems to be something that has evolved to protect vital organs. It does that job well.
 
 If your bullet cannot penetrate 12" of ballistic gelatin then I believe you should re-evaluate bullet choice and construction before using it on a hog. They are known to be hard to put down, have sharp tusks and a bad temper.
 
 I would prefer the Buffalo Bore 255gr HC-FN in .45ACP for hogs. My best pick would be the  Belt Mountain Punch Bullet. It has a solid copper/brass nose and shank with a lead filled back end. In .452" it weighs 320gr. a tad bit too heavy for the .45acp. I have asked the manufacturer to make a .452" in 230-250gr range but he thinks there would not be a market for such a 'light' bullet so constructed. I suppose you could chuck them in a lathe and remove the appropriate amount.
 
 I did notice that in the .452" there is a tiny hole centered in the nose. I suppose this would get around any prohibition on using 'solids'.
 
 Now, imagine a 230gr flat point Punch Bullet in the 460 Rowland (basically a .452 magnum) at around 1350fps in your fav. 1911.  Even at 950fps in a .45acp it would be formidable on hogs.

Nine rounds of hog smakin' 45.

[ole 5 hole group]

 Haaa, SharonAnne, you've been doing your homework I see.  Totally agreed that the BB 255 grain is a top notch performer in the 45 ACP - I've tested them out and they are up to stuff.  I went up to 265 grains with the Beartooth having a larger metplat and that smacks pretty hard as well at the same or slightly higher velocity - 950/975fps vs 1,004fps.

Take the 230 grain Gold dot up to 950/975fps and I would think you'll get somewhere around 16-20 inches of penetration depending upon what it encounters within the animal.  Some of these bonded bullets are the real deal relative to penetration over what was available just a few years ago.  When these bonded boys strike glass/bone they seem to peel back decreasing their expansion diameter just a tad but maintain their weight providing a couple more inches of penetration than they get in gel.

Here's an article I found that tests that gold dot but pushing that puppy to 950fps, which is easily and safely done, would have been a bit better, at least from my perspective.  Maybe this winter I'll have to find out myself, as my son in law has a place he's allowed to hunt on and they have some small hogs - only problem is finding them, as he hasn't seen one the last 2 years.

 
http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell-GoldDot.htm

[jmayton]

My back-up hog gun is a Glock 22 shooting 165gr HP's.  Never had a problem with that and it's dropped a bunch of hogs.  I took a friend's 1911 out one time just to try it out (a bit of an upgrade from mine) and I was shooting 230gr FMJ's in it.  I hit a hog in the spine with the AR out at about 85yds and walked over to finish it with the 1911.  Took a good bead behind the ear, fired, and saw dust kick up behind the hog.  Fired again. . .same result.  The whole time the hog is looking at me and trying in vain to get up.  Took a third shot and actually saw the hole. . .right next to the other two after I looked closer.  Those FMJ's were just going right through.  Finished him with the AR.  My experience has taught me several things:
1.  Hog's can live for a while with no heart. 
2.  Little bullets can travel right through that "shield."
3.  Hogs drop faster with expanding bullets whether from a rifle or a pistol.
4.  A CNS shot is the only sure way to drop a hog quickly.


So, I'll have to disagree with most of you and say that a .45ACP JHP is quite effective on hogs.

[Mikey]

jmayton:  the 230 gn fmj-rn was a poor choice for a finisher, and why behind the ear?  I always put my finishers right down through the top of the skull between the ears, behind the skull at the base, or in front of the ear, between the ear and the eye and I always use swc cast or swc jacketed slugs for field work with the 45 qacp. 
The brain cavity on hogs is not all that large, similar to a Whitetail, small.  If you intend to shoot one of them, hogs or Whitetail, through the brain pan for a finishing shot you need be careful that your bullet travels straight through, and not around the skull between the skull and skin, which a rn slug may well tend to do.  I got into a whoppin' big whizzin' contest with a NYS State Trooper one time who felt his 'finisher' on a car hit Whitetail had 'done the job' and that 'she was dead', except that she continued to bawl and try and crawl away.  I told him that his slug had just gone under the skull and traveled under the skin and out the bottom of the jaw.  He challenged me to do better, and I did. 
I found this same effect on smaller hogs and javelina with hollow-points - unless hit straight on to penetrate directly on through the skull you stand a good chance of having your slug travel under the skin and skid around the skull, damaging very little and having little effect.  Reminds me of a guy in Peoria, Il back in the mid-60s who tried suicide with a snub-nose 38 with rn lead slugs - he didn't press the muzzle directly against his skull when he pulled the trigger and he was a bit whizzed when he woke up in the hospital emergency room with a massive headache, and what we thought was a t&t bullet hole but was actually the entrance hole from the bullet that had traveled around the skull beneath the eyebrows and out the other side. 
You said you had spine shot that hog.  I believe that if your finishing shot had penetrated straight through the brain his blood would have spurted back at you through the hole.  The last time I brain shot a hog for a finisher I made sure I stood out of the way as the 'spurt' of blood arched about 4' up. 
 

[jmayton]

Mikey, I'm fully aware of the anatomy of a hog.  Sadly, I don't get to hunt them several times a week like I used to.  My concern is that too many people have watched too many "documentaries" about wild hogs and have spent far too little time actually hunting them.  Before I moved from TX to CO, my hoggin' rig consisted of an M4 in little ol' .223 and a Glock 22.  I might carry something different every now and again to spice things up, but several hundred hogs fell to one of those two guns.  I think an HP in the right spot will do the job nicely.


I'll also say that unless you're using plastic bullets, there really isn't anything that can't penetrate the "shield."  The misconception comes because all the fat and cartilage seals up the wound and the hog doesn't bleed out and people think the bullet just bounced off.  Most of the time, the hog will run off leaving us to think it's just fine only to die back in the brush.

[Mike in Virginia]

I don't have hogs to hunt here in VA, but I'm fairly certain a .45acp was never intended to be a hunting cartridge.  Heavy and slow is good, but the acp is simply way too slow to be a good animal taking round.  We choose ) or should choose) our guns and ammo according to what we plan to do with it. 
Not much has happened to the acp since its inception.  You can get hollowpoints and +P stuff now, but it will never be a do everything cartdridge.  It was and is intended as a human stopper, and it excells in that capacity.  But good grief, look how many other and better choices we have for hunting game.  It would be nice to have a defense and hunting all in a 1911 gun, but we'd have to go to some other caliber, and as far as I know, a 10mm is the only such weapon available. 
Is it more difficult to stop a hog or a deer?  I once tried a .45acp on a deer, and it didn't work.  A close shot, bullet behind the shoulder, and I did not recover the deer.  The bullet was a jacketed hollowpoint.  I finally lost the blood trail when it crossed a  mountain top and headed down the far side. 
Even considering a hardcast flatpoint, the acp is more than insufficient for large game.  It is simply too slow.  It's big enough, it weighs enough, but we simply cannot stuff enough powder into the short case to create a hunting round.
Even so, it will work sometimes.  But "sometimes" fails when hunting ethics are a priority.  As the Springfield commercial states, "Bring enough gun."   
 

[Swampman]

I don't use anything but 230 hardball for defense or hunting.  It always functions and it's all you need.  Hogs aren't hard to kill and who cares if you find them as long as they are dead.  They are varmints.  A hammer or a pocket knife is enough to kill any hog.

[keith44]

Mike in V. ,
From my Speer loading manual:
.45 acp, 230 grain LRN bullet, 5.6 grains of W231, 831 fps
.45 Colt, 230 grain bullet, 8.3 grains of W231, 870 fps

I'm thinking the old 45 acp would be just fine on game up close (20 or 30 yards).  and yes until I looked up the data I would have, and did, think that the acp was not a good choice.

As for hardball ammo, I prefer something that expands. Keep in mind also some states do not allow FMJ ammo for hunting.

[SharonAnne]

While checking different ammunition pages I noticed that Buffalo Bore has a .357 round loaded with what they call a "Punch" bullet at 150gr. If it is indeed a Belt Mountain Punch bullet then perhaps the owners are now more receptive to lighter bullets. I think I shall again approach them regarding a 200-250 gr. bullet of 0.452" diameter.
 
 Back when I was using a Colt 1911A1 in USPSA competition I had a triple chamber compensator of my own design. I started out with the then standard H&G #68 200gr hard cast SWC. It leaded the comp something fierce. Then I tried the 185g SWC that was the H&G #68 with a bevel base. Then a 175 gr which was the 185 with the bevel removed. Each leaded less than the previous but still I had to dig lead out of the comp. Then one year at Pasa Park for the USPSA National Championship there was a vendor introducing a very light .452 bullet. It was 152 grains. It had a shortened body even more than the 175 and a post that was as wide as the H&G #68 at the nose but the sides were almost parallel. It fed very well and did not lead the comp at all. Most thought it was a .38 Super since it shot so flat. I even had some call me a liar since they did not believe a 45 could shoot with so little muzzle rise. I still have a few of those rounds left. It would be interesting to try them in ballistic gelatin. I wonder how far they would penetrate. Major power factor then was 170,000 so my little hard cast SWC at 152gr needed 1,118 fps for Major. I think mine ran around 1200fps, just to be safe. Hard cast and fast, might have been ok.

Anyway I will try the Belt Mountain Punch  guys again and see if they might give it a go. What do you guys think? Maybe a 230 gr. Punch in .452"? Maybe if several of us asked.