Colt get Marine contract for 1911 look alikes once again in the proven 45 ACP.

[powderman]

         Sticking to their guns: Marines place $22.5M order for the Colt .45 M1911  By Maegan Vazquez
Published July 28, 2012
FoxNews.com   
  
The M1911 Colt .45
 The Colt .45 M1911 is making a big comeback, now that the U.S. Marines have placed a $22.5 million order for the Connecticut-made pistols.
 
  It’s been called the greatest handgun ever made, and it has barely changed sine 1911, when the legendary John Browning designed it especially for the U.S. Military.
And now, the Colt .45 M1911 is making a big comeback, now that the U.S. Marines have placed a $22.5 million order for the Connecticut-made pistols.
The gun, which has been wielded on film by John Wayne and in real life by Sgt. Alvin York and Maj. Audie Murphy, was the standard-issue sidearm in the military for decades, until it was replaced by the Beretta M9 in 1985.

 

"It just became an iconic part of military and American history."

- Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense
"It just became an iconic part of military and American history," Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense, told FoxNews.com.
The gun, one of the most successful pistols ever used at Camp Perry's National Matches, a competition known to be the main world event in artillery sports, has barely changed since it's creation. Dinkel says that shows the gun's "elegant design" just can't be improved on. And firearms experts agree.
"You can’t beat a .45 cartridge," Jack Lewis, firearms director for Cowan's Auctions, told FoxNews.com. "Some things are hard to replace," he said.
Colt Defense, based in Hartford, Conn., will supply as many as 12,000 of the 200,000 U.S. Marines with semi-automatic, tan-colored M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols, and they will include spare parts and logistical support. The gun has long been the weapon of choice for special operations agents, thanks to its reliability and the stopping power of its massive bullets.
"I'm really glad that they're keeping it in the American economy," Lewis, who used the gun while he was in the armed forces, said. "I was quite upset when they went to the Beretta," Lewis said.
Some reports suggest Marines are not happy with their main Beretta M9s for their lack of accuracy and stopping power. With M1911's now supplying Special Ops, growing interest may lead to a better solution.
"To have the 1911 selected again for U. S. Forces 101 years after its initial introduction is just an incredible testament to the timeless design and effectiveness of the Colt 1911," Dinkel said. "This is truly a gratifying contract award."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/#ixzz21xGNKfwA

[Dee]

While I've built, carried, and fought with a 1911 45acp, I feel there are today, better fighting pistols for the military. To get completely away from the anemic 9mm is a positive move, but to go back to a pistol that can be finicky to say the least on ammo, as well as magazines, when there are pistols that are, lighter, just as accurate, more reliable, and a larger magazine capacity, is in my opinion a mistake.

[Sourdough]

I know some guys that are in Special Forces.  When they first went into Afganistan they had those 9MM Baretta.  With in a week they were screaming for the 1911s back. 

[Dee]

The Germans intended the 9mm for their sub-machine guns, and officers pistols. It is a poor fight stopper. The 45acp is a proven fight stopper, but there have been some real improvements on auto pistols since the 1911 was first introduced.

[Nuke41]

 
I'll always love the 1911, but if it was my choice as a combat handgun I'd go with the Glock 21.
 
 
 
 

[Dee]

I've owned and carried several Glock 21s. Their good reliable guns, but I found them in my case, too big getting in and out of patrol cars. I tended to bang them into door jams because of their size. I carry a Glock 27 everyday, but my favorite all time Glock is the 23. It has plenty of power, ammo, a nice size, and points well. In my opinion, it is the top duty weapon for L.E. carry, and I think it would make an excellent military side arm.jmo

[williamlayton]

The arguments for and against are all over the board.
The facts are--in close quarters--the .45 will work better.
I can say for sure that a good Smith can make a .45 eat anything and I think that Colt---or any maker---can do the same.
The reliability issues are not in design but in parts and fitting.
I own .45's in a number of platforms. The Sig has never had an issue with any lead I put in it. The Colts are slimmer and for my hand size (large palm and cadet fingers) fit better. I also like the short GI trigger---but I am getting off subject.
Accuracy at the ranges we are discussing--is a minimal challenge. Need for higher capacity is a good issue--in my case (thank God) it is not a issue that I think I need to address in my choices. If it should be--I am SOL.
Blessings

[finisher]

Seems the US Navy is on top of things. Although it is not used Navy wide, the Sig Saur 226 and even 229 are used by some of the more specialized elements of the US Navy; combat air crewmen, SBU, SeAL teams, security personnel on certain staff details.


They have been doing this since I first joined in '88. Most of the standard issue fleet personnel were still using (very old) 1911s, which I preferred over the Beretta by far.


The Beretta also had durability issues with +P ammo when they were first being introduced. I don't know how this issue was resolved. But I was happy with the 1911s that were being used on my command until I moved on to better things in my Naval service and got my hands on a Sig Saur 226.


Navy 226s have a special coating that makes them very resistant to salt water. The 226 in itself is a very light weight, accurate and reliable pistol out of the box and will stand up to +P ammo much better than the Beretta ever will, including the "Brigadier" version of that gun.


Certain Aircrew units later got the 229 which actually has a salt water resistant coated AND STAINLESS slide. Again, a superb service weapon.


I like the idea that the Corps went American and I do think that the 45 ACP is a superior round as not just everyone in the military gets issued +P ammo, but hey when up close and personal if the first one doesn't drop them... you can always shoot them again, and again... Hey, not everyone gets trained well enough to do double taps to the head at 25 yards.


I love my Navy.


ADDED 30JUL12: My mistake on the 229, it WAS actually the 228 that was introduced after the 226. The 229 may have been added in later. Aside from capacity, you can't go wrong with a 220 though.

[AtlLaw]

The 45acp is a proven fight stopper, but there have been some real improvements on auto pistols since the 1911 was first introduced.

This says it all... 

[powderman]

I remember Elmer Keith saying may years ago, Heaven help us if our military ever adopts the 9mm. POWDERMAN. 

[Redhawk1]

Love the 1911, I think it is a great choice.

[Mike in Virginia]

If the .45acp is so wonderful, why do the police departments across the nation not use them?  A few do, but probably less than 1%.  I don't think it's the platform that keeps the .45 out of police hands.  They don't want it in any configuration.  It can't be the recoil, can it?  Before the autos hit the police market, the most sought after revolver was a .357 Magnum, lots more recoil than a .45acp.  Maybe it's the fear that the public will deem it overkill, which it definitely ain't.  It's not the BEST man stopper, regardless of the hype.  Or maybe it's the cost of ammo.  I really don't know. 
 

[Dee]

Actually in a revolver platform most folks are shocked at how mild the recoil of the 45 acp really is. In the old 1911, the "believed recoil" is actually the snap of the slided hitting the rear most travel of the slide cycle, which unless there is a recoil buffer, is metal against metal.
As far as the most sought after handgun being the 357 magnum, I happen to have lived that particular era of Law Enforcement. The published FBI stats for police involved shootings starting in the early 60s showed that the best one shot stopper was the 125 grain jhp in 357 magnum. It was a combination of velocity, bullet weight, and bullet configuration, along with penetration. And NO! The 357 Sig "IS NOT" the same, or even close.
Another issue was what does the round do when coming into contact with bone? The 45 acp was a bone breaker. The 357 magnum was, and is a bone shatter-er.
In 1977 I had the unfortunate opportunity to use a Model 28 Smith loaded with 357 magnum 125 grainers. The round performed very well, and did it's job. In June of 1978, I used a Colts Lightweight Commander, that I had customized myself. The pistol itself performed perfectly, but the round performed miserably. The confrontation was obviously won, but, I sold the pistol as soon as the case was cleared, and went back to the 357 magnum THE NEXT DAY after the incident.
I have built and messed with this platform for years, but I believe that the next best thing to the 125 jhp in 357 mag. could possibly be the S&W 40, and with the right bullet, maybe just as good.
I believe thru my own personal experience, and training, that the Marine Corp could have made a better choice than the old 1911. But then again, they didn't aske me.JMO

[Redhawk1]

If the .45acp is so wonderful, why do the police departments across the nation not use them?  A few do, but probably less than 1%.  I don't think it's the platform that keeps the .45 out of police hands.  They don't want it in any configuration.  It can't be the recoil, can it?  Before the autos hit the police market, the most sought after revolver was a .357 Magnum, lots more recoil than a .45acp.  Maybe it's the fear that the public will deem it overkill, which it definitely ain't.  It's not the BEST man stopper, regardless of the hype.  Or maybe it's the cost of ammo.  I really don't know.

It is Police Department policys that is the reason why. The 45 ACP is a proven man stopper, just ask any of the old solders that used them in war, no hype about the 45 ACP.
I can sum it up with one sentence...
A bigger hole causes a bigger wound which causes more damage and a subject to bleed faster.
That's it in a nutshell...

[Mike in Virginia]

Redhawk1, I know it's policy.  But WHY is it policy?  What is it about the .45 caliber that makes it the wrong choice for police?  I actually do not know.  They had far more effectiveness in the 10mm, which didn't work out for known reasons.  Something is wrong with the .45 for cops, but I don't know what it is. 

[finisher]

Redhawk1, I know it's policy.  But WHY is it policy?  What is it about the .45 caliber that makes it the wrong choice for police?  I actually do not know.  They had far more effectiveness in the 10mm, which didn't work out for known reasons.  Something is wrong with the .45 for cops, but I don't know what it is.

**************
This is just speculation but having rubbed family and friendly elbows with a lot of LE in my younger days and having been in the military through the time they transitioned to the Beretta, my impression was that training and re training was a big issue.


Lets face it people, training hours cost budget money and quite a bit of it.


In my experience, people with limited firearm experience usually take to the revolver (even the stiff 357) alot quicker than they do any automatic. After having become proficient with the magnum and firearms handling in general those same individuals might not be so leary of operating a double action auto or a Glock and the recoil of the 9mm feels like a BB gun in comparison to the .357.


But take the new generation of LE that has only ever known the days of the police automatic and bump them up to a 45ACP. Sure it isn't much more recoil, but it is definitely a different feel. And I wont even go into the difficulties of transitioning someone from a double action auto to a single action auto,


Many LE types are quite used to and comfortable with the one gun they use and maybe an off duty compact revolver. The fact that they are LE doesn't mean firearms are their primary hobby off duty.


I convinced my wife's cousin who is LAPD (and it took some convincing) to just try out my Sig 220 next to his service Beretta and he had a hard time staying on paper with simple speed drills.


Truthfully, he has a hard time staying on paper with his Beretta also


Sure, there are talented of guys that have no problems transitioning from one gun to the other, but we're talking about the standard issue cop not a talented handful.


And in this case, these 1911s are going to be issued out mostly to Spec operators if I'm not mistaken, correct. So retraining shouldn't be a big issue.


Big difference between your average street cop and an operator.

[SharonAnne]

police do not carry sidearms to engage in combat. They carry sidearms as a badge of authority and to threaten with. Glocks were so popular when converting from revolvers because they are nothing more than a magazine fed revolver. Point and pull the trigger, just like a revolver. Any pistol with a manual of arms more involved is not wanted. Too much training time, time costs money and police depts. have very limited budgets.

Soldiers carry sidearms mainly as last ditch defensive weapons. They are made to kill as efficiently as possible. Since they are already familiar with magazine fed weapons with manual safeties it is not much of a stretch to transfer that skill from a rifle/carbine to a pistol. It costs a great deal to train a soldier. A proper caliber pistol is cheap compared to the loss of a soldier.

And lets be realistic. It costs less to bury a police officer than it does to lose a lawsuit.  Cynical, yes, but accurate. 

[Ranger99]

i didn't see anyone come out and say it,
so i will.
l.e.'s aren't allowed to use .45 acps because they
might kill someone. yes the same reason
most p.d.'s stayed with round nose lead
.38 specials for so many years and god
forbid if the officer slipped some man-killer
hollow points in their duty gun and had to
pop someone.
(case in point - the post about the tweeker
that tried to run over the l.e. and he shot
through the windshield- folks went
bats**t over that)
i sort of subscribe to the bill jordan school-
if god forbid you have to pop someone,
make sure they're well popped.
mr. jordon would probably be imprisoned
this day and age for his opinions.

[guzzijohn]

I did the math and this comes out to $1,875 a pistol which includes parts and support. I must say I am surprised as I thought they would end up spending quite a bit more, especially when the government is buying. I think it is a good move.
GuzziJohn

[tlmkr38]

I did the math and this comes out to $1,875 a pistol which includes parts and support. I must say I am surprised as I thought they would end up spending quite a bit more, especially when the government is buying. I think it is a good move.
GuzziJohn

  I think it's a little overpriced actually. Should have been less than $1000.00 Gotta get that pork spending out there though...  Other than parts what support is there? We train armorers in the military to repair the guns so that's not included. Parts, Just how often does the thing break? I've fired over 10k rounds though my 1991 and it's still going strong. Sorry, I don't see it...