Author Topic: Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?  (Read 1300 times)

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Offline finisher

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Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?
« on: July 28, 2012, 03:19:55 PM »
I am looking hard at one of the Ishapur 308 jungle variations with the intent of customizing my own scout rifle (foward rail, lighter stock etc.).


I have heard that it COULD be unsafe to fir 308 Win ammo through the 7.62 NATO chambering. This got me to wondering about chamber inserts, more specifically a conversion to 7.62x39 (which in theory should be safe, correct).


Can it be done, will the magazine still feed and what kind of $ am I looking at to have this done if so.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 04:59:09 PM »
The 308 case is probably thinner than the military case. Maybe the military case is loaded to lower pressure? I've never heard of an Enfield 2A1? what is it?
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 07:27:40 AM »
 
  In answer to the first issue, I think that if you go on line and try to read all of the technical data you can find, many people say that the Ishapore can handle the .308 Winchesters, so long as it is an ordinary Saami load, prefereably factory.  These rifles were made in 1968 out of some pretty tough modern steel, so personally I wouldn't have a problem doing it.
 
   If you somehow convert to 7.62x39, then the problem is that bore size.  It is my understanding that almost all of the ammunition for 7.62x39 coming out of Europe uses a .311 bullet (which is the original soviet standard), not a .308  bullet.  So, with your conversion, you are going to be shooting .311 bullets through a 7.62 Nato (.308) barrel.  Could give some higher pressure and pretty poor accuracy.
 
  As for Don's question, the Ishapore 2A was the last mainline manufacture of Lee Enfields as a regular issue battle rifle.  They were made in India, by the Indian government, in the mid-1960s, specifically for use with  the 7.62 Nato round.  Unfortunately for those of us with bad eyes, they were based on the earlier type of British Enfields (WWI type), with the tangent sight, rather than the wonderful peep sights that came on the WWII British Enfields.  If you go on Youtube and look at Ishapores or Enfield 2As, you will see lots of people shooting them.  You can find them in full length rifles, or ones that have been turned into carbines (by various importers).
 
   Ishapores have been around in this country for a long time now, and people either love them or hate them.  You can still buy them packed in cosmolene (used, not brand new), and the quality seems to be luck of the draw.  Some look like they are unfired.  Others look like beat up boat oars.    Some feed great without a hitch, others require extensive patience and bending of the magazines to get them to feed.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Regards, Mannyrock
 
 

Offline finisher

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Re: Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 08:49:42 AM »
Thanks for your input Mannyrock.


About two weeks ago I bid for an Ishapor rifle that had been customized with a light stock, barrel cut to 18.5, re-crowned, refinished, foward mount with a an "OK" EER scope (prefer intermediate), flush three point ching sling attachments and extra mags with stripper clips. Stripper clip guide seems to be the one thing that all the so called scout manufacturers seem to leave out. Probably an expensive part of the manufacturing process.


Short of the lack of any iron sights as a back up, it would have been my ideal scout rifle and I figured that I could always have irons installed later.


Anyway, I was out bid at $650 , buy it now was $695. When I lost the auction I thought that I shouldn't have been such a cheapskate and just hit the buy it now option but after hearing about the scuttle about 308 Win. Vs. NATOs I just don't know.


Now, I see these Jungle carbine versions of the same rifle with matching parts and if it were not for my being leary about the pressure issues, these rifles  would seem like an even better platform than the other one that I bid on. The barrel is already shortened and you even get a bayonet option with the already installed front sight.


All I would have to do is install a rear sight on the back of the receiver and BAM, the one rifle for me that I could rely on any time, any place if it was all I had. Just have to hope the one I buy has a smooth action and shoots straight.


NOTE: I DO NOT RELOAD (plan to one day but as yet it hasn't happened). This is why the pressure issue is such a concern for me. I am going on the idea that one day I may have to rely on what ever ammo is plentifully available ( military, like 5.56/.223 or 7.62x 39, 9mm luger etc.) and I don't know if that is the 308 Win. or the NATO.


I don't see a lot of surplus NATO ammo around to much any more. And I don't want to risk damaging the rifle but this one seems like the only option out there as far obtaining the type of scout that I want short of spending $$$$ for a custom build (aint gonna happen). All the others out there just don't do it for me.


The closest option I have seen would be a Ruger Frontier (Ruger really screwed the pooch w/ the Gunsite... single stacker and no guide come on, really) other wise that would have been it), but the Frontier would still need to be modified in some way to load more ammo, the guide and sights are still an issue also.


 So it comes back to the 308 1965/66/67/68 Ishapor jungle variant is the one that comes the closest. I guess all I have to do is find a life time supply of NATO ammo.


Thanks again Mannyrock.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 09:48:02 AM »
 Consider yourself lucky. It was a $300 rifle tops.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline mannyrock

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Re: Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 09:56:44 AM »
Finisher,
 
   I think it would have been a negative thing for your to have spent $650 for a re-worked Ishapore.  (Unless the scope on that gun was worth $350).   If you are really interested in the Ishapore route, I think you would be better off buying one at a gunshow, at the lowest price you can find, and shooting it for a couple of months (without spending a dime on modifications), to see if you like it or not.  You may well find that the platform is totally unacceptable.    (I could be wrong, but I think that if you install a receiver sight, then you may not be able to use the stripper clip fixture.)
 
   It is not hard at all to find 7.62 Nato ammunition.  I think that several ammo makers manufacture and sell mil-spec 7.62 Nato.  I would thing that the UMC brand certainly has it.  Buying surplus 7.62 is often a very hard way to go.  For example, a few years ago, there was lots and lots of great looking surplus Nato ammo released and sold from Argentina, in dark greeen plastic battle sleeves.  The gunshows were full of the stuff.  Unfortunately, it turned out that this ammo was  loaded "overly-hot", perhaps to better work in heavy machine guns, and it would shut down bolt action rifles.  The case expanded so tight that you could barely open the bolt.  Many broken extractors and problems from this. Extreme signs of high pressure.
 
    Although the Ishapores have a detachable magazine, it is a fairly crude magazine and it isn't easy to just snap on and off.  The overwhelming majority of folks I have seen shooting these are loading them from the top, using stripper clips or one by one.  Replacement magazines are out there, but these seem to be hit and miss as to function.
 
   I am not a fan of the new Ruger Scout, but many folks swear by them.  I hate the long, single stack magazine, especially the way it hangs down.  But, please read asap the post by Swampman on his new Ruger,, especially the new magazines available for it.  I believe he said that some company is making 10 rounders, that are stagger feed, that will fit the rifle.  This kinda changes everything.  (Look in the Bolt Action Rifle section, under My New Ruger, and read all of the comments.)
 
   This is just my personal opinion, but if I were building a Scout, I would buy a Howa 1500 rifle, in .308, with the full length, standard weight 22 inch or 24 inch barrel.  (A used one in vg condition would be fine.)  I would then have the barrel cut and crowned to 21 inches.   I would then install a quality synthetic stock.  The big news for these rifles is that Howa now sells kits, to replace the blind magazine at the bottom, so that it will accept 10 rounds magazines, which I believe are staggered magazines.  From what I have read, these work great and people are very happy with them.  If you look on gunbroker, you will see people selling the brand new Howa 1500s, with this kit and a 10 round magazine included.
 
   I also think that the new Savage 111 Hog rifle, in .308, would have a lot going for it at a Scout platform. The great part about it is that you could add the stuff you want, one step at a time, instead of trying to do it all at once.  At present, I think it has a 5 round blind magazine.  But, I also think there are conversion kits out there, perhaps made by Savage, that let you convert to a detachable mag.  These are currently 5 round, but I would have to believe that higher cap mags must be on the way.
 
     If you are simply wedded to going with an Ishapore, thenI personally I would buy one of the full size rifles.  You can still find these in shipping boxes packed in grease from the arsenal. (Used, though).  Often, they are cheaper than the carbine versions.   Assuming you like how it shoots, you could then shorten the barrel to whatever you like, and customize it one step at a time.    In all honesty, though, I don't think that many folks are using the Ishapore as a serious Scout platform.
 
   As for converting it to 7.62x39mm, I can almost guarantee you 100% that you will have feeding issues.  The outer dimensions of the Nato and Russian cartridges are significantly different.  The Ishapore was designed for the Nato round, and often it does not even feed that round very well.    Go to Google, and search "problems Ishapore rifle."
 
 
  Hope this helps.
 
 
Mannyrock
 
   
 
   

Offline finisher

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Re: Enfield 2A1 308 converted to 7.62x39 w/ insert?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 02:01:25 PM »
Thanks again Mannyrock. Great info and more options help. I remember that Argentinian stuff and it was pretty stiff going through my VEPR.